[WeestDype]

I have never heard that people get killed for such things. I know they do get fined though. I think whoever claims such must prove that it was TTP who did those things, it definitely is not their official policy whatsoever. We know that sometimes even the Afghan Taliban may make mistakes but the people are encouraged to complain to the judges/ameers etc so that issues can be resolved.

With regards to the killing of civilians, they claim in each of the video's I have seen, that they do not target civilians at all. However, due to the nature of combat, civilians may be killed. If you look at the classical works of fiqh, this is dealt with and in the video's, texts and references are given. Something relevant to this can be found in Shaykh Azzam's (ra) book here: http://www.kalamullah.com/Books/defence.pdf

See under 'Evidence for the General March', part 6 where the issue of Muslim shields is brought up.

[leacturavar]

I have never heard that people get killed for such things. I know they do get fined though. I think whoever claims such must prove that it was TTP who did those things, it definitely is not their official policy whatsoever. We know that sometimes even the Afghan Taliban may make mistakes but the people are encouraged to complain to the judges/ameers etc so that issues can be resolved.

You're right. But my source of such informations was a reliable person who wrote of these incidents here on SF.
What I mean is, we can't really rule out a priori the presence of proper "extremists"/khawarij as there are in other places as well (see Algeria, even though much of what has been blamed on Mujahidin were covert operations by the Algerian mukhabarat, but still not all of them).

He may eventually add some more details here, if he deems it to be the case.

With regards to the killing of civilians, they claim in each of the video's I have seen, that they do not target civilians at all.

In a related thread this pro-mujahidin brother mentioned that in another video they allegedly say that they don't mind targetting civilians on purpose. Allah knows best.

However, due to the nature of combat, civilians may be killed. If you look at the classical works of fiqh, this is dealt with and in the video's, texts and references are given. Something relevant to this can be found in Shaykh Azzam's (ra) book here: http://www.kalamullah.com/Books/defence.pdf

Indeed, but that's not this what I'm talking about..

[rengerts]

I have never come across such an Eid message, so please share the link

type 'mullah omer's eid message' site:sunniforum.com in google

[rengerts]

brother umar_italy is closing in on the jackpot...targeted civilian killings. and guess what osama bin laden's papers showed today: he too disliked ttp for their targeted civilian killings.
hmmm

[WeestDype]

brother umar_italy is closing in on the jackpot...targeted civilian killings. and guess what osama bin laden's papers showed today: he too disliked ttp for their targeted civilian killings.
hmmm

Yet in every video that I have ever seen, they have denied the targeted killing of civilians. So maybe it isn't the TTP who are doing this, but rather, someone else. With regards to Shaykh Bin Laden's papers, they were released by the kuffar, not Al Qaeda, so they can't be trusted. Not only that, but why would he write about the TTP when all he had to do was speak to them face to face about what he thought was wrong? It makes no sense

[WeestDype]

type 'mullah omer's eid message' site:sunniforum.com in google

After having done so, I can find no Eid message with any mention of the TTP, such as the one you spoke of. Please give me a link to it

[agracias]

brother umar_italy is closing in on the jackpot...targeted civilian killings. and guess what osama bin laden's papers showed today: he too disliked ttp for their targeted civilian killings.
hmmm

Bhai, please read the article posted on the following thread:

http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/show...ode&highlight=

Even Pakistani column writers are aware of the fact that all subversive activities are done by CIA, RAW and Mossad backed puppets.

[leacturavar]

type 'mullah omer's eid message' site:sunniforum.com in google

Yes, we found the Eid message, but what about his message discussing TTP?

[rengerts]

give me some time brothers. i realize i have to explain several points.from my huge bookmarks list i have to find articles. i think it was brother abul lais who once posted a thread in which mullah umar discusses ttp.

[leacturavar]

give me some time brothers. i realize i have to explain several points.from my huge bookmarks list i have to find articles. i think it was brother abul lais who once posted a thread in which mullah umar discusses ttp.

I found this post, allegedly mentioning something on the TTP issue, but still couldn't find any reference to them in it?

http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/show...l=1#post438635

Interesting thread, the whole of it..

[rengerts]

ah now i remb...the thread got deleted
it was called :
"Taliban pledge not to target security forces, focus on US-led forces only!!!"
first post definitely had criticism by Mullah Umar.
but i guess we wont be able to read that now : s

[rengerts]

that thread brother umar_itay posted is actually a very good debunking of pro-ttp theories.

[WeestDype]

give me some time brothers. i realize i have to explain several points.from my huge bookmarks list i have to find articles. i think it was brother abul lais who once posted a thread in which mullah umar discusses ttp.

I remember that thread, I think I may have posted on it myself. It was an article found in the Pakistani media, so we cannot consider it to be authentic, especially since it was discussed in a video later on (where the Talib said that if such a command had been issued for Mullah Umar, it would have gone from him straight to the TTP and not the Pak media)

[WeestDype]

that thread brother umar_itay posted is actually a very good debunking of pro-ttp theories.

The thread does no such thing since all anti TTP theories on there come from the Pak media, who we know to be secular and nationalist. If you had done some research however, you would eventually find this video (mentioned in that thread) where the TTP spokesman claims it is haraam to kill any innocent Muslim and their targets are the government/army only: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LlhYFCzl-zo

Video above is in English

[rengerts]

look at this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6nNn...source=message
a friend asked me about it so i tried to explain it to the best of my abiltiy. this is part of what i told him:


"there are several things here:
1. quaid e azam was not a kafir. there are evidences to show he wasnt even shia. he converted later in his life.
many senior ulema of india had favorable views of him. i prefer their opinion over this ttp person.
2. many senior ulema were also not in favor of partition (heads of darul uloom deoband, hazrat abul kalam azad etc). they had their opinions and we respect them.i personally think it was better to separate for the sake of freedom of following islam 'openly'. it is a very very long debate which i cant summarise here.
3. ghazwa taif was fought between muslims and kafir or muslims and muslims?i think it was former. so ttp ruling is nullified immediately as kamrah had muslim occupation.
secondly this ttp person is picking ahadith that support his claim. one should listen to what a proper alim says becoz he wd know ALL hadith regarding conflicting point of views. what the ttp alim is saying is very dangerous.
4. the hadith stating throwing 'false' ahadiths at the wall is misquoted. it is for ulema who know the sceinces of ahadith. they are specialized alims for this known as muhaddtihs. laymen like you, me, ttp guy, army guy are ill-equipped to do this.
daeef ahadith are not fabricated and senior ulema of yesteryear and present state they can be used to derive fadhail e amal.. but they cant be rejected out right.Allahualam.


there are more parts of this convo in which the ttp person criticizes imam ka'bah. probably because imam kab'ah may not be a muqallid.

classic hijacking of islam by laymen.both army guy and ttp guy are not alims.
here is what the grand mufti of pakistan says about attacks such as that on kamrah:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BLcEUvgkYFk

the ttp aims of promulgation of shariah are islamic but their implementation is not.i wonder why they do not do jihad in kashmir. its more kafir vs muslims there than in swat."

i'll have a look at the video you showed.

[leacturavar]

that thread brother umar_itay posted is actually a very good debunking of pro-ttp theories.

Well actually I had the opposite impression, especially since almost the only objections came from an open Pakistani nationalist fan of the government stooge Zaid Hamid..

[WeestDype]

Interview with Mustafa Abul Yazid, the leader of Al Qaeda in Afghanistan: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qCpN3...feature=relmfu

Who says that Baitullah Mehsud is a true mujahid, etc and linked with Mullah Umar

[WeestDype]

look at this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6nNn...source=message
a friend asked me about it so i tried to explain it to the best of my abiltiy. this is part of what i told him:


"there are several things here:
1. quaid e azam was not a kafir. there are evidences to show he wasnt even shia. he converted later in his life.
many senior ulema of india had favorable views of him. i prefer their opinion over this ttp person.
2. many senior ulema were also not in favor of partition (heads of darul uloom deoband, hazrat abul kalam azad etc). they had their opinions and we respect them.i personally think it was better to separate for the sake of freedom of following islam 'openly'. it is a very very long debate which i cant summarise here.
3. ghazwa taif was fought between muslims and kafir or muslims and muslims?i think it was former. so ttp ruling is nullified immediately as kamrah had muslim occupation.
secondly this ttp person is picking ahadith that support his claim. one should listen to what a proper alim says becoz he wd know ALL hadith regarding conflicting point of views. what the ttp alim is saying is very dangerous.
4. the hadith stating throwing 'false' ahadiths at the wall is misquoted. it is for ulema who know the sceinces of ahadith. they are specialized alims for this known as muhaddtihs. laymen like you, me, ttp guy, army guy are ill-equipped to do this.
daeef ahadith are not fabricated and senior ulema of yesteryear and present state they can be used to derive fadhail e amal.. but they cant be rejected out right.Allahualam.


there are more parts of this convo in which the ttp person criticizes imam ka'bah. probably because imam kab'ah may not be a muqallid.

classic hijacking of islam by laymen.both army guy and ttp guy are not alims.
here is what the grand mufti of pakistan says about attacks such as that on kamrah:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BLcEUvgkYFk

the ttp aims of promulgation of shariah are islamic but their implementation is not.i wonder why they do not do jihad in kashmir. its more kafir vs muslims there than in swat."

i'll have a look at the video you showed.

First of all, the Mufti IS a scholar and what did he say that was wrong? He criticised the Imam of Kaabah for making dua for Musharaff, not for being against taqleed. He didn't use any weak or fabricated hadith whereas the Pak soldier didn't know what he was talking about and certainly didn't understand the concept of jihad. With regards to using the hadith regarding the Battle of Taif, then this is permissible because the TTP consider the Pak Army as murtad (apostates) because of their allying with the kuffar against the Muslims.

They would do jihad in Kashmir but why only Kashmir and not Pakistan? Do you wish that jihad happens in every land but Pakistan?

[leacturavar]

Do you wish that jihad happens in ever land but Pakistan?

You've raised the main issue for Pakistani nationalists.

[rengerts]

First of all, the Mufti IS a scholar and what did he say that was wrong? He criticised the Imam of Kaabah for making dua for Musharaff, not for being against taqleed. He didn't use any weak or fabricated hadith whereas the Pak soldier didn't know what he was talking about and certainly didn't understand the concept of jihad. With regards to using the hadith regarding the Battle of Taif, then this is permissible because the TTP consider the Pak Army as murtad (apostates) because of their allying with the kuffar against the Muslims.

They would do jihad in Kashmir but why only Kashmir and not Pakistan? Do you wish that jihad happens in every land but Pakistan?

how about you try and refute everything i said in that post one by one. make sure not to omit anything. starting from the point about quaid e azam.

i'll wait.

just because someone thinks other people are murtad they can kill the other?i may think my next neighbour is murtad because he plays loud music. should i go and kill him? just because you have a beard, and can speak arabic with tajweed and know a thing or two about shariah doesn't make you fit to do takfir of entire pakistani government and population. and then asserting that you can kill them.how is that shariah?

i study and work in a university which has army administration and also has a full corps stationed there. we used to travel by bus to our uni (in a uni bus) every morning during my undergrad and then back to our homes in evening.
so just because we are studying there, (me and all our classmates who traveled by bus were civilians) should we be slaughtered?should our bus be attacked? should our class rooms be bombed?
this is what happened in kamrah. and that 'scholar' said what?yeah he said 'they werent kids they were grown ups'. this is inhuman.

what about the kids of armed personnel?should we just go to cantonment and shoot the kids in the playground because there father is an army officer who may or may not be stationed in swat?is this allowed in shariat?

why did the ttp 'scholar' not recognize the hadith about throwing ahadith that go against shariah on the wall?forget daeef or hadith he didnt even recognize it?why?

as for kashmir...muslims are openly oppressed there by non-muslims. whereas in pakistan they want shariah and so anyone who disagrees should be slaughtered along with their families. the need for jihad is much more dire in kashmir than in pakistan. do you deny that?

for attacking civilians please refer to mufti rafi uthmani's words. he has declared them haram. what makes the ttp then who are carrying out this haram?