[suingincentix]

Welldone to whoever closed the thread http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/show...al-Ghauthiyya!

I guess the guy bugmenot was causing enough embarrassment for the neobandis, so better to bury the thread altogether. Shame he didn't have the guts to answer the questions posed to him and had to resort to personal attacks.

Didn't have the guts to come out and declare Shaykh Uthman dan Fodio a kaafir or mushrik, but instead directed it at the people who highlighted the shaykh's words. Pathetic individual...I guess his ego was hurt to much after the kicking the neobandis got on that thread, so I suggest he stops worshipping his own ego before he goes around accusing people of shirk.

We must remember Shaykh Uthman dan Fodio is a widely accepted righteous scholar, and the Prophet salAllahu 'alayh wasallam said, "The scholars are the inheritors of the Prophets", and that part of the legacy that Shaykh Uthman dan Fodio inherited, which he has left for the ummah are his works.

Yet the internet mujaddids of this age who have inherited jack all can find bidah and shirk in the Shaykh's legacy.

We ask Allah for safety and security.

[Kuncher]

,

Although I do consider you call to shirk when you start telling people to pray to other than Allah, I had tried my best to get my post edited/removed to avoid useless discussions.
You didn't ask me any questions, rather personal attacks were from your side.

And don't get that emotional that doesn't add any weight to your stance
CALLING TO OTHER THAN ALLAH IS UNKNOWN TO ALL THE SALAFS, INCLUDING SHAYKH AL-JILANI. I really don't care what you think of me.

But I'm happy you asked Allah for safety and security in the end, all is not lost.

[piramirra]

Assalaam'aaleykum!

Br. Sunniseeker, I ask you this again.

We all agree that most afzal way of seeking help is the one taught to us by Allah and his Rasool (saw). Right?

Then why do we need to adopt other dubious ways whose authenticity is not established and the method in and of itself is subject to much suspicion?

[redDoodia]

Welldone to whoever closed the thread http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/show...al-Ghauthiyya!

I guess the guy bugmenot was causing enough embarrassment for the neobandis, so better to bury the thread altogether. Shame he didn't have the guts to answer the questions posed to him and had to resort to personal attacks.

Didn't have the guts to come out and declare Shaykh Uthman dan Fodio a kaafir or mushrik, but instead directed it at the people who highlighted the shaykh's words. Pathetic individual...I guess his ego was hurt to much after the kicking the neobandis got on that thread, so I suggest he stops worshipping his own ego before he goes around accusing people of shirk.

We must remember Shaykh Uthman dan Fodio is a widely accepted righteous scholar, and the Prophet salAllahu 'alayh wasallam said, "The scholars are the inheritors of the Prophets", and that part of the legacy that Shaykh Uthman dan Fodio inherited, which he has left for the ummah are his works.

Yet the internet mujaddids of this age who have inherited jack all can find bidah and shirk in the Shaykh's legacy.

We ask Allah for safety and security.

You might have genuine grievances which you can put forward politely.
You resorted to name calling and hence a useful thread was closed down.
You have been the cause of a loss.
Being a very senior member of the forum it should have been clear to you by now that sensitivity here about innovations is much more pronounced then you yourself possess. And that is the way people are here. That is what we prefer and we do not entertain the possibility of deviating from that. If you insist upon the things that you asserted in that thread then also it is fine for you are responsible for your actions. Our scholars do not approve new ways to pray as a way of life. There is no internet Mujaddid here. We are completely dependent on scholars and we prefer it that way. You might also have realized the innovation based Islam is increasingly getting sidelined in the present times - it is lost game to remain attached to it. It is high time to abandon the sinking ship. Many people have done that should not be that impossible for you too. And if you feel it is too difficult then do spend some time of Salafi or Ahl-e-Hadith fora. It will do you a lot good for you shall feel suffocated by the constriction of their ideology as well as pointlessness of the ideology that you are presently trying to stick to. I assure you I have enough people in my acquaintances and friends from both sides, the innovators as well as the other side, but I do not feel motivated at all to spend time with either of them. That is moderation for me. It is not a bad alternative for you to consider. Of course the choice is yours - you are accountable for your actions.

And Allah (SWT) knows the best.

[gymnAnemoe]

You might have genuine grievances which you can put forward politely.
You resorted to name calling and hence a useful thread was closed down.
You have been the cause of a loss.
Being a very senior member of the forum it should have been clear to you by now that sensitivity here about innovations is much more pronounced then you yourself possess. And that is the way people are here. That is what we prefer and we do not entertain the possibility of deviating from that. If you insist upon the things that you asserted in that thread then also it is fine for you are responsible for your actions. Our scholars do not approve new ways to pray as a way of life. There is no internet Mujaddid here. We are completely dependent on scholars and we prefer it that way. You might also have realized the innovation based Islam is increasingly getting sidelined in the present times - it is lost game to remain attached to it. It is high time to abandon the sinking ship. Many people have done that should not be that impossible for you too. And if you feel it is too difficult then do spend some time of Salafi or Ahl-e-Hadith fora. It will do you a lot good for you shall feel suffocated by the constriction of their ideology as well as pointlessness of the ideology that you are presently trying to stick to. I assure you I have enough people in my acquaintances and friends from both sides, the innovators as well as the other side, but I do not feel motivated at all to spend time with either of them. That is moderation for me. It is not a bad alternative for you to consider. Of course the choice is yours - you are accountable for your actions.

And Allah (SWT) knows the best.

bro Maripat for saying what needed to be said.

[gymnAnemoe]

Welldone to whoever closed the thread http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/show...al-Ghauthiyya!

I guess the guy bugmenot was causing enough embarrassment for the neobandis, so better to bury the thread altogether. Shame he didn't have the guts to answer the questions posed to him and had to resort to personal attacks.

Didn't have the guts to come out and declare Shaykh Uthman dan Fodio a kaafir or mushrik, but instead directed it at the people who highlighted the shaykh's words. Pathetic individual...I guess his ego was hurt to much after the kicking the neobandis got on that thread, so I suggest he stops worshipping his own ego before he goes around accusing people of shirk.

We must remember Shaykh Uthman dan Fodio is a widely accepted righteous scholar, and the Prophet salAllahu 'alayh wasallam said, "The scholars are the inheritors of the Prophets", and that part of the legacy that Shaykh Uthman dan Fodio inherited, which he has left for the ummah are his works.

Yet the internet mujaddids of this age who have inherited jack all can find bidah and shirk in the Shaykh's legacy.

We ask Allah for safety and security.

May Allah give you the ghayra of his tawheed.

If "Uthman dan Fodio had invited you to eat pork and drink whiskey you would have said that he inherited it from al-Mustafa . If he had asked you to worship Laat and Hubal or Ganpati and Buddha you would have rushed to perform it.

Don't open your mind so much that your brains fall out.

You take an ordained act of worship for the Creator and offer it for the Created.

You point your empty head and face away from the Qibla of the believers and instead of saying Ya Qadir! Help me, you say Ya 'Abd al-Qadir help me.

The internet mujaddids of this age may have inherited jack but have not let go of the Kalima-e-Tawheed. And you have inherited Tawheed and turned it into jack.

Allahu musta'an. Our plea is to Allah alone:

Khannda-zann Kufr hai, Ehsaas tujhe hai ke nahin,
Apnee Tawheed ka kuch paas tujhe hai ke nahin.

Infidelity mocks faith, hast Thou some feeling or not?
Dost Thou have any regard for Thy own Oneness or not?

[iOqedeyH]

If "Uthman dan Fodio had invited you to eat pork and drink whiskey you would have said that he inherited it from al-Mustafa . If he had asked you to worship Laat and Hubal or Ganpati and Buddha you would have rushed to perform it. The arguing aside, this is improper speech regarding a luminary of Islam. One shouldn't use the name of a scholar in such a way.

[suingincentix]

I haven't made any assertions in the other thread, just astonished that a righteous 'aalim as Shaykh 'Uthman dan Fodio can be branded a mushrik, yet no one has the bottle to call it outright, and I've never heard one ulema consider him as such.

[Kuncher]

May be nobody wanted to call him mushrik as it was all in your head I believe.

[suingincentix]

Yer well if you read the thread from the start, the OP describes a practice of some people and goes on to label it as shirk, possibly assuming it is done by ignorant laymen of India.

Then lo and behold it turns out that a widely recognised and accepted 'aalim from this ummah has recommended this practice - so does that not make him worse than the ignorant laymen? He is not only practicing it himself but inviting others to it.

So what do you do, add his name to your list of ahlul bida/shirk?

[GinaGomesz]

Then lo and behold it turns out that a widely recognised and accepted 'aalim from this ummah has recommended this practice - so does that not make him worse than the ignorant laymen? He is not only practicing it himself but inviting others to it.

In that case, Do you accept everything by the scholar Ibn Taymiyya ?

[suingincentix]

In that case, Do you accept everything by the scholar Ibn Taymiyya ?

No I don't accept everything by Ibn Taymiyya; but he is widely regarded by many ulema to have made serious errors in certain aspects of the deen, so he is a controversial person. That is not the case with Shaykh 'Uthman dan Fodio, therefore your attempts to draw similarity is not correct.

[GinaGomesz]

No I don't accept everything by Ibn Taymiyya; but he is widely regarded by many ulema to have made serious errors in certain aspects of the deen, so he is a controversial person. That is not the case with Shaykh 'Uthman dan Fodio, therefore your attempts to draw similarity is not correct.

kthanxbai.

[leacturavar]

No I don't accept everything by Ibn Taymiyya; but he is widely regarded by many ulema to have made serious errors in certain aspects of the deen, so he is a controversial person. That is not the case with Shaykh 'Uthman dan Fodio, therefore your attempts to draw similarity is not correct.

And similarly Istighatha "is widely regarded by many ulema to be a serious errors" up to shirk.

[gymnAnemoe]

Yer well if you read the thread from the start, the OP describes a practice of some people and goes on to label it as shirk, possibly assuming it is done by ignorant laymen of India.

Then lo and behold it turns out that a widely recognised and accepted 'aalim from this ummah has recommended this practice - so does that not make him worse than the ignorant laymen? He is not only practicing it himself but inviting others to it.

So what do you do, add his name to your list of ahlul bida/shirk?

The Shari'ah is not judged by what the people do.
The people are judged by what the Shari'ah says.
It would take more than a scholar of the Khalaf to turn the religion of Islam on its head.
Anyone who offers this "prayer" and does not repent from it and read the Kalima again will rise on the day of Judgment with the Hanood (Hindoos) and the Majoos.
And the list of the Ahl al-Bida' is decided by the Qur'an and Sunna. We might decide to compromise on the basis of name and status but the line is not drawn by us. It is drawn by the Law-giver.

[suingincentix]

From Mufti Husain:

I am extremly busy at the moment and have no time to enter into a discussion on Istighathah, however I guess it is time to clarify some basic concepts, which you seem to have difficulty grasping.

When a person calls out to one who is absent for help, he could do it in one of the following ways:

1- Believing that person having the ability to hear him and/or help him from afar on his own without the news being conveyed to him though ilham or Angels, without such abilities been granted by Allah
2- Believing that person having the ability to hear him and/or help him from afar on his own without the news being conveyed to him though ilham or Angels, with such powers having been granted by Allah, but Allah Ta'la (wa al-iyadh bi Allah) being unable to strip him of those powers.

These two are clear shirk and not the issue under discussion, as you will have to really look hard to find Muslims holding such belief. I wouldn't be too surprised if a few of the really extremist Barelwis do hold such beliefs, however, that isn't for discussion here.

3-Believing that person having the ability to hear him and/or help him from afar on his own without the news being conveyed to him though ilham or Angels, with such powers having been granted by Allah who holds the ability to strip him of such powers when he wishes.

This is the type of istighathah under discussion and this is what is meant by "Istiqlan", as this person supposedly receives knowledge of the unseen mustaqillan (independently), as the news was not delivered to him, rather he perceived it on his own.
Our Hanafi Fuqaha have clearly stated that one who believes in a person other than Allah Ta'ala being able to receive knowledge of the unseen in this manner, is a KAFIR.
I suppose they were probably loose in slithering out the words "kufr" and "shikr"!

As for the 4th and 5th type, that is one who calls out:
4- Not believing that the person has the ability to hear me, rather Allah Ta'ala would convey this call to him and then allow him to come to my aid through a karamah or instead Allah Ta'ala would aid me

and

5- Not believing that the person has the ability to hear me, rather he just adopted such words as Tawassul in the court of Allah, in reality asking Allah for help, without even intending that this person can ever hear me in any way or help me

then these two are definitely not Shirk haqiqi.Yes, our Ulama forbid people from calling in such a manner as it could lead to others getting the impression of shirk or it could lead to the callers own beliefs being spoilt after some time.

The situation Mufti Taqi sahib called "fiqurative" or "imaginary" falls into this last type, as it is common in poetry, where a person calls out to all types of imanimate objects: addressing the earth, the walls, etc, not in anyway intending that they can hear or even respond. The same for those elders who address Awliya in their poetry.
Clearly some forms of istighatha are allowed depending on the niyyah and belief behind the call; and some are shirk/haram, again depending on the underlying niyyah and belief of the caller.

[rengerts]

You might have genuine grievances which you can put forward politely.
You resorted to name calling and hence a useful thread was closed down.
You have been the cause of a loss.
Being a very senior member of the forum it should have been clear to you by now that sensitivity here about innovations is much more pronounced then you yourself possess. And that is the way people are here. That is what we prefer and we do not entertain the possibility of deviating from that. If you insist upon the things that you asserted in that thread then also it is fine for you are responsible for your actions. Our scholars do not approve new ways to pray as a way of life. There is no internet Mujaddid here. We are completely dependent on scholars and we prefer it that way. You might also have realized the innovation based Islam is increasingly getting sidelined in the present times - it is lost game to remain attached to it. It is high time to abandon the sinking ship. Many people have done that should not be that impossible for you too. And if you feel it is too difficult then do spend some time of Salafi or Ahl-e-Hadith fora. It will do you a lot good for you shall feel suffocated by the constriction of their ideology as well as pointlessness of the ideology that you are presently trying to stick to. I assure you I have enough people in my acquaintances and friends from both sides, the innovators as well as the other side, but I do not feel motivated at all to spend time with either of them. That is moderation for me. It is not a bad alternative for you to consider. Of course the choice is yours - you are accountable for your actions.

And Allah (SWT) knows the best.

highlighted part is because people are reading into islam more...Allahualam. many many educated people i see are turning away from barelviyat.

to the OP:
i urge each and everyone to keep praying for your and the ummah's guidance. that is the only way to break free from a deviant sect or to remain sticking to life to the straight path.
knowledge doesnt equate guidance. take example of shaytaan.
scholars can only give knowledge but not guidance.
it is from Allah SWT.
so ask Him for guidance. then seek knowledge. in sha Allah you will only seek what will be sufficient to guide you and will abstain automatically from misguidance.
do it brother.

to sir maripat again:
epic post.

[rengerts]

Clearly some forms of istighatha are allowed depending on the niyyah and belief behind the call; and some are shirk/haram, again depending on the underlying niyyah and belief of the caller.

you are right. i don't see how any of the deobandi brothers can argue with this. this is their belief. i think when first three are involved that some barelvi brothers do not draw the line. not all of them though.
however i must agree what mufti taqi says.
we say ya ayyihun nabiyyo assalamu alaika in attahiyat with the belief that the Holy Prophet (PBUH) is conveyed greetings by the angels on our behalf. that part is unanimously agreed.
i personally wont do 'salah' al ghauthiyyah because
a) not done by the Prophet (PBUH)
b) not done by first three generations of Islam
c) no concrete proof of authenticity.

but thats my personal opinion.

[rengerts]

In that case, Do you accept everything by the scholar Ibn Taymiyya ?

aoa,
amazing point.

[NicolasOL]

http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?HD=7&ID=1925

The great late Syrian scholar, Shaykh Muhammad al-Hamid (Allah have mercy on him) explains:

“As for someone who believes that those called upon can cause effects, benefit, or harm, which they create or cause to exist as Allah does, such a person is an idolater who has left Islam” (See: Reliance of the Traveller, P. 940).

Therefore, there is nothing wrong in using the Prophets, saints and the righteous as intermediaries to Allah, through any of the above mentioned means, as long as one does not believe them to have the power to benefit or harm in of themselves without the granting of Allah.