[JimmyHas]

Year Circa 1865 : Establishment of Deoband Sytem of Islamic Thought and Education
Year Circa 1875 : Establishment of Aligarh Movement (Modern Education of Muslims)

A lot of things have happened in between but the two streams are not fully integrated-or integrated up to a satisfactory level. The purpose of the thread is to take stock of the situation, the amount of integration that has already taken place, the things that have to be done, corresponding road blocks and anything else related to it. You can also bring in relevant posts from past threads since not every body is familiar with what has been already said at SF on this topic-certainly this poster is not familiar with that.
In the next post I'll copy paste relevant posts from this thread.

[JimmyHas]

Here is a copy past of some remarks from another thread mentioned above related to present topic.
Kindly maintain focus of the thread.

The Madrassah culture needs a good amount of reformation so that it can become of the same significance to the society as it was some 150 years ago. The counter-madrassah educational system launched by Sir Sayyid Ahmed khan has made its way through the society while the Madrassahs are still fighting for their survival. There are a thousand reasons behind this but the most valid one is the acceptance of science by our society. Whether one studies science or not , whether on is in the favor of studying it or not , we all are using it one way or the other. The madrassahs must now give up that old practice of separation of religious knowledge from the worldly knowledge and bring some balance in their approach. The issue is delicate but if handled carefully , Islamic universities can be launched which can provide sound religious and scientific education to the students.

Originally Posted by dr.ati View Post
The madrassahs must now give up that old practice of separation of religious knowledge from the worldly knowledge and bring some balance in their approach.
Even in the secular education system there are science and arts streams. So, per say, this compartmentalization is not so bad. What is required is the integration of modern and religious education for the initial stage of education. For madarsa people the task should not be so difficult because Dars-e-Nizami has already some elements that are of scientific type. The secular/modern system has to do more catching up because in that system even basic Islamic education is not taken care of.

The issue is delicate, ....
You said it Dr Sahab. It is difficult to communicate to the either side. This sinner is one of those poor souls who are completely in no-man's land-so I understand what you mean.
but if handled carefully Islamic universities can be launched which can provide sound religious and scientific education to the students.
True again. What I find surprising that this is a thing that should have happened by now but some how it is still a pie in the sky.

Since you have mentioned Sir Syed I'll conclude with that angle. The inheritors of Sir Syed are, at this moment, in a state of complete disarray. Being a part of that glorious legacy it is very painful to say above words but you may check it for your self by becoming member of one or more of the Alig discussion groups I have linked here. The environment there is such that I have never felt the desire to contribute there.
Wassalam

Quote Originally Posted by Maripat View Post


Since you have mentioned Sir Syed I'll conclude with that angle. The inheritors of Sir Syed are, at this moment, in a state of complete disarray. Being a part of that glorious legacy it is very painful to say above words but you may check it for your self by becoming member of one or more of the Alig discussion groups I have linked here. The environment there is such that I have never felt the desire to contribute there.
Wassalam

brother Maripat you must be well aware of the present status of the Aligs in india. The ones i have seen in Pakistan , the old ones who studied there before partition or right after the partition , have gone miles away from Islam. My grandfather's brother graduated from there in the early 50,s and now he is an 80 year old "clean shaved grandpa".
The religious ideologies of Sir Sayyid Ahmed khan had its negative impacts as well. Hameed ud deen Farahi , Ameen Ahsan Islahi , Javed Ahmed Ghamidi are the secondary products of his teachings and Ghulam Ahmed Parevez was like his carbon copy. Infact , the religious ideology of Sir Sayyid effected millions and his concepts of "social reforms in Muslim thought and society" effected billions.
However , I do feel that the Ulama did not counter him very well. Except for Nadwat ul Ulama may be,the rest of the groups went to the other extreme of complete rejection of modern education. This thought of the Ulama (Who may have been very sincere in their intentions) not only failed to counter the culture of "Mr" but also failed to keep the Muslims away from science vs Islam war. ( Science vs Christianity is an understandable and historical terminology but science vs Islam is a recent concept).
I really sometimes struggle hard to think of a solution to this.

Quote Originally Posted by dr.ati View Post


brother Maripat you must be well aware of the present status of the Aligs in india. The ones i have seen in Pakistan , the old ones who studied there before partition or right after the partition , have gone miles away from Islam. My grandfather's brother graduated from there in the early 50,s and now he is an 80 year old "clean shaved grandpa".
The religious ideologies of Sir Sayyid Ahmed khan had its negative impacts as well. Hameed ud deen Farahi , Ameen Ahsan Islahi , Javed Ahmed Ghamidi are the secondary products of his teachings and Ghulam Ahmed Parevez was like his carbon copy. Infact , the religious ideology of Sir Sayyid effected millions and his concepts of "social reforms in Muslim thought and society" effected billions.
However , I do feel that the Ulama did not counter him very well. Except for Nadwat ul Ulama may be,the rest of the groups went to the other extreme of complete rejection of modern education. This thought of the Ulama (Who may have been very sincere in their intentions) not only failed to counter the culture of "Mr" but also failed to keep the Muslims away from science vs Islam war. ( Science vs Christianity is an understandable and historical terminology but science vs Islam is a recent concept).
I really sometimes struggle hard to think of a solution to this.

Bismillah
Dr. Ati,
There always been bone of contention between Ulema of deen vs various others scholar of philosophy & science. Nothing new. the problem is they never had the air of Islamic scholarship. So easier to idenify who is who.
Allahualam

Averros & Omar khyam comes to mind. On a personal note I do not like to use science as a proof for relegion. Too often people over emphaises science. I think Mufti Taqi deferntiate puts this nicely in his book 'Science of Quran' where he catagorises knowledge in differnt set.

None of them came into confrontation due to their scientific views. Ibn Rushd mainly tried to preserve the Aristotelian and Platonic thought in Islam (Tahafut al-tahafut which was his response to Al Ghazali's Tahafah ul Falasifa) so he was refuted for that. Omar Khayam is mainly criticized for his poetical views regarding religious pluralism ,anti-totalitarianism,feminism etc . I think this had got nothing to do with science.

[GinaGomesz]

I personally think integration of non-religious Subjects into Madressa will not help to increase its importance. The reason that Parents send children to learn Modern science is because they are forced to. For any kind of college education the child has to pass 12th std in either the National Board or the State Board. The Madressa has no influence in the childrens Career. So many Parents send them to just learn to recite the Quran and stop it after that. The declining 'popularity' of Madressa has very little to do with missing Modern Science subjects.

If integrating Modern Science is with the intention of introducing acceptance of Science, then its a different story. But I m not sure what would be advantage, since the kid will be going to 'formal' school anyway.

[MightyMasd]

A step in this in direction was taken by the jamiatal ulama south africa a few years ago. They have full aalim course (dars nizami), only accept matriculants, and its compulsiry for the students to do some course at university

[MightyMasd]

A step in this in direction was taken by the jamiatal ulama south africa a few years ago. They have full aalim course (dars nizami), only accept matriculants, and its compulsiry for the students to do some course at university. I know they were also appling for recnqnision from the govt but i dont know how succesful that was

[JimmyHas]

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