[ENGINESSQ]

Muslim clerics push for flags to be flown on mosques
Richard Kerbaj
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au...82-601,00.html

SENIOR Muslim leaders have called for the Australian flag to be flown outside the nation's mosques as an expression of the Islamic community's "loyalty" and commitment to this country.
Muslim clerics yesterday urged Australia's 300,000 Muslims to back the idea as a symbol of "integration" and pride.
The former chairman of the Prime Minister's Muslim reference group, Ameer Ali, pushed the Australian Muslim community yesterday to adopt the flag.

"Even in Muslim countries in the mosque they fly the national flag ... (such as) in Pakistan. If that can be done in a Muslim country why not in Australia?" Dr Ali said.

He said Muslims opposed to the flag being displayed outside mosques were religiously narrow-minded. "I think they are looking at it from a very narrow, religious angle," he said.

Dr Ali said he spearheaded the initiative of displaying the flag outside Muslim schools owned by the Australian Federation of Islamic Councils when he ran that organisation in 2002.

He also ensured that students sang the national anthem during special functions.

"We are Australian Muslims," he said. "And it (the flag) is a symbol of our national identity."

One of Australia's most respected female Muslim leaders, Aziza Abdel-Halim, said displaying a national flag outside mosques would not conflict with Islamic teachings.

"Putting the Australian flag (outside mosques is) a good sign of integration, of being at one with everyone else in this country and our pride in being Australian," said Sister Abdel-Halim, also a former senior member of John Howard's Muslim advisory body.

"I don't see anything at all that would contradict Islamic teachings in any way. It would be a nice gesture to have it, especially now that Muslims really need to underline the fact that they are loyal to this country."

Another respected imam, Amin Hady, said it would be especially important for the Australian flag to be flown outside mosques on special national occasions, such as Anzac Day and Australia Day. "That is to me a good idea to reaffirm the commitment of anyone living in this country, including the Muslims who are part of the population," the Indonesian imam said.

Islamic sources have told The Weekend Australian that the move to fly the flag was discussed by executive members of the Lebanese Muslim Association, one of the Islamic community's most prominent organisations.

But the move, backed by several LMA board executives, to display the flag outside Lakemba Mosque, in Sydney's southwest, were staunchly opposed by some community members.

It is understood that the LMA's proposal came after a Muslim man tore down the Australian flag from the Lakemba office of the Mufti of Australia, Sheik Taj Din al-Hilali, last year and stomped on it to express his opposition to it.

It is believed that Sheik Hilali - who recently labelled Westerners liars and oppressors and said Australia belonged more to Muslim immigrants who "paid for our passports" than Anglo-Saxon convicts - reprimanded the man before ordering him from the office, on the same premises as the mosque.

But Muslim leader Keysar Trad said last night some community members would consider the idea of displaying the flag as "politicising a place of worship".

"I have no problem with the flag being at Muslim schools, but a place of worship is for all people to be equal and as such I believe places of worship should maintain the tradition of not raising the national flag," Mr Trad said.

And prominent Sydney-based Islamic cleric, Khalil Shami, expressed fears yesterday that hoisting the flag outside mosques would lead to potential violence and further division within the community among factions opposed to the idea.

Comment:

Its quite funny how these so called religious leaders say that being loyal to a nation state which is based on non-Islam is compatible with the teachings of islam, yet they fail to provide a single reference from Islamic sources. Maybe its because Islam obliges loyalty to Islam and the ummah only.

In terms of integrating into western society Muslims are prepared to do that, but not at the cost of losing our identity as many other communities have done already.

In their quest to be loyal to Australia and to integrate fully maybe these imams should lead by example and allow their sons and daughters to sunbath, go to nightclubs and pubs and engage in relationships with the opposite sex, after all this is quite normal and acceptable nowadays and only the backward and ignorant Islamic fundamentalists oppose such activities as being decadent and wicked.

[Mjypksun]

I'm sorry.But your conclusions at the end were completely wrong.
Islaam does indeed allow loyalty to a non-muslim state.Check the classical books of fiqh.
We have a contract with the governments in these lands and muslims are loyal to their contracts(verse of Quran )-
Then how you said from showing good will to the land one lives in to go to sunbathe and pubs?
La hawla wa laa quwwata illah billah.
Where is your logical reasoning???

This is the stupidity that affects our Ummah - A stupidity that disguises itself in the clothes of Taqwa...whilst intellectually , physically and spiritually destroying us in the name of "jihad"Whereby saying allahu akbar justifies any act its perpretrator wishes to engage in by some emotive action that bypasses true scholarship

May Allah(swt) give us people of courage,intellect,piety and *wisdom* in these lands.

a Muslim enters a non-Muslim land, as a trader, forexample, it is not permissible for him to fight against them or take their wealth as booty, because he has guaranteed that he shall not do so by the act of seeking security with them.

To fight them after that would be treachery, and treachery is forbidden." (Book of War, The Hidayah)

[riverakathy]

I find it funny a few years back Muslim leaders in the West were speaking about the ills of "nationalism" and how it was incompatible with Islam but have now made an about-face which not only permits nationalism, but encourages it, even if one is being "nationalistic" or "patriotic" about being a part of a non-Muslim country that contributes to the slaughter of innocent Muslims.

Ajeeb.

[Mjypksun]

Okay..Its easy to say that.

Why pay tax...You're paying for missiles and bullets(nver mind a silly flag)
Why work for the health service-where you tend the wounded.and support the population to get strong..
Why wrk in the water industry which is vital to their economic welfare -
Why work for the electricitiy that flows in their information centres where they track satellites etc

In short...if truly believe wat you do...then stop the rhetoric..and make hijra.
Everything else is just easy talk

[Mjypksun]

Im not saying i agree with flags on mosques.
Mosques are the Houses of Allah..and non-else should be remembered therein.
They point to the heavens and should not be polluted by symbols of the Dunya

Celestia not terrestrial.
I objected more to the tone of the comments of sidi showkat

[Mjypksun]

The other thing to remember..is that its not all doom and gloom!
Islaam...

We live here...this is a land now of da'wah for us.
That means rahmah and Bushra...
Bashiru wa la tunaffiru

Mosques..should be beloved to non muslim awaam(not politicians//militariasts etc)

When mawlana rumi died...read how many kuffar came to his funeral out of love.....
Why is that?

He wasnt a modernist...he was a hanafi sufi...
Lets be like him here

[riverakathy]

Okay..Its easy to say that.

Why pay tax...You're paying for missiles and bullets(nver mind a silly flag)
Why work for the health service-where you tend the wounded.and support the population to get strong..
Why wrk in the water industry which is vital to their economic welfare -
Why work for the electricitiy that flows in their information centres where they track satellites etc

In short...if truly believe wat you do...then stop the rhetoric..and make hijra.
Everything else is just easy talk

You have clearly not read the entirety of my post.

The second part of my post, which is what you are refering to, can only be understood in context if you consider it in light of what preceded "but have now made an about-face...".

The whole "if you believe in X, Y, or Z so much then why don't you...." is a most weak argument used quite often by many people.

Regarding my making "Hijra", anyone who knows about the plight of the Afghans will know that we came here not seeking wealth like some, but came to be able to practice our Deen.

Again I request that we debate and discuss facts and issues rather than turning things personal.

[vulikox]

You have clearly not read the entirety of my post.

The second part of my post, which is what you are refering to, can only be understood in context if you consider it in light of what preceded "but have now made an about-face...".

The whole "if you believe in X, Y, or Z so much then why don't you...." is a most weak argument used quite often by many people.

Regarding my making "Hijra", anyone who knows about the plight of the Afghans will know that we came here not seeking wealth like some, but came to be able to practice our Deen.

Again I request that we debate and discuss facts and issues rather than turning things personal.

Worora ta da koom ze da afghanistan yeh? Aow pasthu poyege yaw na.

Biyadar az kudam jai afghanistan asti? pashtu yaw dari yaad dari yaw nai.

[riverakathy]

Worora ta da koom ze da afghanistan yeh? Aow pasthu poyege yaw na.

Biyadar az kudam jai afghanistan asti? pashtu yaw dari yaad dari yaw nai.

Check your email grana worrora.

[riverakathy]

ttt

[Slonopotam845]

Forget about the passports bros, and your nationality, and things like patriotism and so on. You don't identify, I mean, truly identify yourselves as "British", "Bushish (meaning an american)", "Fransozisch", etc. only when asked for a passport, then you show it, but don't love it.
For soon you will leave this land, and your passport, and your body, soon we all will. So being British for instance will not help you with Allah swt. But being a Muslim will, insha'Allah.

We should obey the local national laws of the country we live in. That's normal, as we should not do "what we like" anyway. But that does not mean we have to support the flag of the country of residence, even if you were born in it, you don't know where are you gonna die.

National flag is a symbol and as such it means something - could be idelogy, or dumb love for land, etc. but it's a symbol of something.

All this Earth should be only one big Muslim country with Shari'ah Law, insha'Allah and we should never identify ourselves with national symbols.
Symbols are born and they die, but the Truth of Islam lives.

[RBJamez]

"All this Earth should be only one big Muslim country with Shari'ah Law, insha'Allah and we should never identify ourselves with national symbols.
Symbols are born and they die, but the Truth of Islam lives"


what about the majority that would not like for this to happen. look at the lands Islam has touched, they are third world back waters. thanks but no thanks!

[violalmina]

hayseed, havce you ever made a visit to one of the "third-world" countries? I have. I am American born and raised, and I can tell you, you will never find the peace of mind you'll have in one of these "back waters" places.

[Slonopotam845]

what about the majority that would not like for this to happen. look at the lands Islam has touched, they are third world back waters. thanks but no thanks!

Islam is the Ultimate Justice, I can understand that you don't understand it. I didn't say that everyone will be a Muslim, for this is not what everyone wants, that is the difference.
Now you have completely the opposite situation in the world - no country has Shariah Law installed, and probably every single country has at least one Muslim in it besides non-Muslims, but mostly all these national laws are laws to make corruption grow, to finish off poor people, to make richer rich people, these laws support evils like interest, pornography, etc.

And it's a well known fact that "world's leading countries" like the US, GB, France, Germany, Japan, etc. made those poor countries even poorer: loans based on unjust and abnormal interest rate which the poor countries can never re-pay.

So thanks to the "rich world" children are dying in the poor countries, and not because of Islam.

[BDDkDvgZ]

"All this Earth should be only one big Muslim country with Shari'ah Law, insha'Allah and we should never identify ourselves with national symbols.
Symbols are born and they die, but the Truth of Islam lives"


what about the majority that would not like for this to happen. look at the lands Islam has touched, they are third world back waters. thanks but no thanks!

yeah, they are now, after they were touched by non-muslims.
before the non-muslim invasions they were actually better than non-muslim lands, hence the envy and the evil that followed.

the time is coming when islam will be in every household on earth - this is predicted by the prophet muhammad (peace).

you better accept islam or find another planet

[Flistelib]

There is absolutely no room for flag waving in the house of Allah SWT. Whether it be the flag of a Muslim country or non-Muslim country. Nationalism is one (not the only) of the factors that has led to the decline of this ummah. History is a testament to the fact that when this concept was introduced in the Muslim world, we were already in a state of decline, and we were decieved into believing that it would alleviate us from the hole that we were in, but it only pushed us down even further. In Islam itself, there is no justified struggle to defend ones nation, only to defend ones faith.

This does not mean that we do not pay taxes or work towards bettering the society that we are living in. Infact, this was the paragon of what made Muslim Spain what it was. Europeans from all over were stuck in the dark ages of western civilization, and were astonished with the things that they saw when they passed through Spain, such as roads, and clean running water, and hospitals. If you ever get the chance to, watch the documentary "Empire of Faith" (its a 3 part series, so watch part II to learn more about this).

I'm not a historian, nor a scholar, so click on this link below to see what the ulema have to say about nationalism etc.


http://www.islam.tc/ask-imam/view.php?q=6403

I could not find anything from sunnipath, so let me know if anybody else finds any other articles from scholars and ulema on this issue. Wassalam.

[Eujacwta]

SENIOR Muslim leaders have called for the Australian flag to be flown outside the nation's mosques...

this is bizarre, why should Muslims have to do this when Christians and Jews do not?

[raspirator]

Hmm. I'm curious to see what has happened with this issue in Australia, as this thread was first started in 2007.

In any case, brother Abdul1234, it appears there are ulama who lack political awareness despite having studied or accumulating Islamic knowledge. In that sense, there is an inability, or lack of development, in applying Islamic knowledge to the affairs of the Muslim people. This leads to unconscionable fatawa, utterly backwards opinions.
One of the causes of this is that Islamic institutions were subjugated to kufr powers during colonization and occupation and the kufar wanted to control them by separating Islam from reality and Islam from the affairs of the people (politics, economics, foreign relations, etc). Hence, these institutions could generate 1000s of 'imams' and 'ulama' each year, but without having a major impact on society or the affairs of the Muslim Ummah.

Hence, how an alim and 'leader' of Muslims could advocate brandishing the national flag of Australia on a masjid.

Or at least, that's one explanation for it. I may be wrong.

And Allah certainly knows best.