[TOD4wDTQ]

Asalamukum ww

Dear brothers and sisters I received an important email which details the conditions of the Muslims in Italy and some measures which can be taken to improve these conditions. The email actually reflects very well the downtrodden state of the Muslim ummah, it's causes and also presents some sort of solutions. The email although it covers only Italy can infact be applied to the majority of the ummah wherever it maybe. May ALLAH reward the brother who sent it to me and may ALLAH bless him and all the ummah of the prophet Muhammad sallhualahiwaslaam. It is in a question and answer format. Please note this important point. We, muslims are under ideological attack and even those who consider themselves practicing have a very grave misunderstanding of what is complete deen. Please ponder on this thread and if you cannot do anything else then at least make some dua (prayers) and shed a few tears for our sorry state.

[TOD4wDTQ]

1) What is the total amount of Muslims living in Italy?

Various official estimates indicate in at least 1'500'000 the number of Muslims living in Italy.

They form a heterogenous community (differently from other countries in Europe, where there is usually a
dominant nationality), with Muslims from many different nationalities composing a varied mosaic.
The most part of them being from North-Africa (Morocco and Tunisia on the top, making up 1/3 of the total
Muslim population in Italy, followed by Egyptians and Algerians), then from Albania and other Balkan
countries, Indian Subcontinent (Bangladesh and Pakistan; very few Indian Muslims), Western Africa
(Senegal, Ghana, Ivory Coast, Nigeria and others), Eastern Africa (Somalia), Turkey (both Turkish and
Kurdish), and many others, included even brothers from Central Asia.

To this should be added an increasing number of converts, both Italians or from other immigrant
nationalities (south-Americans, Eastern Europeans, etc.)

Islam is the second religion in Italy as for number of followers, but it doesn't have as a whole any official
recognition as a minority religion community by the State, which instead communities as Jews, Jehova
Witnesses, Protestant Churches etc., did manage to get.

Islam came back to Italy (after the Muslim dominion of several regions in Southern Italy during the “Middle
Age”) very recently, long after the immigration waves which took Muslims to settle in other European
countries (UK, France, Germany), but at a faster pace and in a less organized way, leading millions of
foreigners from many different countries arriving “all of a sudden” in a country which until just a few
decades ago was a land of emigration, before rapidly became a land of immigration.

This has thus led to more problems in the reaction of Italian people and in the social integration of these
newly arrived Muslims, as well as in their own organization.

The first Islamic association was founded by refugee Syrian and Jordanian students affiliated to al-Ikhwan al-
Muslimun, who had fled Syria due to Alawi kafir government repression. They laid the foundations for that
which will become the most representative Islamic organization in Italy, modeled on the example of the very
similar Ikhwani Islamic associations leading the Islamic community in France (they are also linked to the
infamous European Council for Fatwa and Research), and gathering almost exclusively Arabs (but not all of
them) and those amongst the Italian converts who are on the same doctrinal wavelength, and are generally
the most well-known ones in the Italian Islamic community.

This Islamic associations, in the years, has also set down the main doctrinal reference for the vast majority
of the Muslims laymen, choosing to publish and popularize the works of the Ikhwani maslak, etc., and they
remain the main doctrinal reference of most of the Arab-led Islamic centers scattered on the territory.
There are also a few other groups organized as Islamic national associations, but they don't have any strong
following in the country nor any real representativeness; and some of them have no credibility at all, as
those who have strong zionist anti-Islamic links, etc.

Virtually all of these associations are nothing like a “Jamiatul Ulama” - as they do not comprise of scholars –
nor do they really serve the interests of Muslims in Italy (caring), but rather, their field of interest are politics
and lobbying, trying to establish connections with the Italian government (when they aren't set up by the
Italian government itself), gain official recognition, etc.

Today ,Muslims population makes up around 33% of the total number of foreigners living in Italy, and
around 2,5% of the total population (total population being around 60 millions).

There is no official estimate of converts, but the number should be between 20-40'000, and Allah knows
best.

[TOD4wDTQ]

2) How many of them are affiliated to the Deobandi Manhaj?

As far as I know, only the Pakistani and Bengali brothers involved in the efforts of Tabligh know about
and somehow adhere to the Deobandi Manhaj.

Being mostly involved in the efforts of Tabligh, their affiliation to the Deobandi Manhaj isn't expressed
as such nor is given excessive importance as a focal distinctive identitarian criterion: mostly, it just
demarks in them a strong dislike for Barelwi practises and the adherence to the Tablighi activities.

The Arabs and the brothers of other ethnicities affiliated to the effort of Tabligh, instead aren't
“Deobandi” nor they know does this word even mean or stand for: they take part in the Tablighi
efforts but remain linked to their own references, mostly (especially for the Arabs), Salafi ones.

Then, in addition to the Paki-Bengali Tablighis, we have a relatively small group of Italians and other
etnicities (Moroccans, Macedonians) who follow our forum/blog, and are thus – again more or less
tightly – affiliated to the Deobandi Manhaj.

[nursopoutaras]

Just marking it to be in the mailing list.
Wassalam

[Deengealf]

Asalaam Alaikum bro London786 how are you?

[Uvgsgssu]

Br. London786, I think you made a typo with "Salluwasalaam" instead it should be "SalAllahu Alahi Wa Sallam".

[TOD4wDTQ]

Awan313

Re: The situation of the Muslims of Italy and in reality the whole world
Asalaam Alaikum bro London786 how are you?
Waylakumusalam w w. Brother Mashallah great to hear from you. I have posted something recently on a thread about the sayings of mashaikh related to Maulana ALLAH yar khan rh. It may interest you.
ilm_seeker

Re: The situation of the Muslims of Italy and in reality the whole world


Br. London786, I think you made a typo with "Salluwasalaam" instead it should be "SalAllahu Alahi Wa Sallam". Brother I will correct the typo inshallah. jazakallah khairan

[TOD4wDTQ]

3) How many scholars are there in Italy (irrespective of Manhaj)?

Very few; I'd say around a dozen “in activity” as Imams or having some very limited role in their local
communities (i.e. having a very limited number of local people referring to them for their queries), but
they aren't recognized as scholars on the whole territory and thus exert very little influence.

Further, I've had the occasion to meet a few brothers (mainly Bengalis) who in their countries studied
in madrasa, but then, after graduating, left the Islamic subjects and came here to Italy as normal
immigrants to find a job, and now work in factories or other jobs, as their 'ilm isn't taken in
consideration by the communities and no effort is done to involve them in masjid activities.

Other than them, the norm is the huge-proportions phenomenon of jahil people running mosques and
leading congregations as Imams and giving “lessons” and “lectures”. The phenomenon of a Muslim
butcher opening a Musalla near his shop and starting giving lectures (with people even asking him
questions) is typical; as it is that of “dukturs”, “engineers” and “intellectuals” rising as leaders of a
certain Islamic community only on account of their speaking-interactional ability (or political links), but
still, they are taken as point of reference by their local communities for their queries, even though
they have no proper 'ilm, and this as a direct consequence of the lack of interest in ilm from the side
of the general public itself.

This phenomenon is especially typical of Arab communities, which are anyway the most organized and
running most of the Islamic activities in Italy; while for example the tiny Turkish communities gets
“Imams” from Turkey, formed by the secular Turkish State and its Department for the Religious
Affairs; while to offer another example, the brothers from Senegal gather around their Sufi Mashaykh,
who often have some Dini knowledge, but their influence is limited to their own communities.

Regarding the Paki-Bengali communities, instead:

[TOD4wDTQ]

4) How many Deobandi scholars are there in Italy?

I personally know of only three-four of them, living in cities of Northern Italy and being Imams in
“Tablighi” mosques and thus mostly involved in the Tablighi efforts. None of them has wide recognition
in Italy as “scholar” to which refer, nor lessons or lectures are generally organized, except for the
maktab system started in some cities, and I've been informed of the basis of a Hifz Madrasa having
been led in a North-Italy city.

Again, their influence is only limited to the immediately surrounding local community, mostly limited to
the Tablighi activities, and that too most often is exercised through the medium of Urdu and Bangali
(except for Tablighi bayans, which according to the conditions may be conducted in Italian or Arabic).

[qilmuz6v]

As-salamu 'alaykum,

Interesting thread. I see a lot of similarities to the situation in Denmark, although the immigrant groups are a little different.

[TOD4wDTQ]

5) How many Masjids/Musallahs are there in Italy (irrespective of
Manhaj)?

There are only three “real” masajid (in Rome, Milan and Catania), plus a few more in the process of
being built, insha'Allah. We have big problems with Islamophobic political parties not letting us build
mosques, and the general Italian public being ill-prepared and unwelcoming.

Other than this, there are around 800 musallas/Islamic centres, or even more: most typically, a garage
is rented by the community and prayers are offered in it, which too often bad sanitary-hygienic-safety
conditions, due to the precariousness of these structures and the limited resources on which the Islam
communities can rely.

[TOD4wDTQ]

6) How many Deobandi Masjids are there?

I don't think there are more than a dozens, when for “Deobandi Masjid” we simply mean musallahs
runned by Pakistani-Bangladeshi brothers affiliated to Tabligh (and thus excluding the good number of
“Tablighi” masjids runned by Arabs or by mixed groups).

Tabligh is alhamdulillah growing strong in Italy, but maybe also for the good partecipation of Arabs
(who have their own doctrinal references, and represent maybe even half or more of the Tablighi
brothers here), this effort is not linked to the Deobandi Manhaj, nor – as far as I could see – any
effort is done in the direction of promoving the Deobandi Manhaj outside of the brothers from the
Subcontinent: all the other ethnicities are reached only by the Tablighi activities, not by any kind of
“Deobandi Da'wah” (not that is necessary for any Muslim in the world to be a “Deobandi”, nor I intend
to promote sectarianism, but this kind of “Deobandi Da'wah” is needed a lot in the main cases in
which the alternatives consist of Batil methodologies).

Our Musalla in Genova is the only “Deobandi” association as such that I know of, but our activities are
quite limited, and we aren't much well-known outside the internet world, except than in our city,
where we are alternatively pictured as “Wahhabis” or “deviated Sufi”, “Sectarian Italian extremists” by
the rest of the community, which doesn't understand why “the Italians” have decided to escape from
their patronizing tutelage (the reasons that led to this would be quite long to mention, but it's about
the other musallahs running things in a (Shari'ah-wise) unsatisfactory way, and them being
unwelcoming to the halaqahs we had been organizing in “their” musallahs).

[treawittelf]

What is the point of this thread? Should we feel sorry for the plight of Muslim migrants and refugees in Italy or feel sad that Deobandism hasn't dominated in Italy?

[TOD4wDTQ]

both points actually. Wherever the deobandis have gone ilm and quraan have gone with them mashallah. On the other hand wherever they have not gone in the west the the place has been taken over by idil minds who promote such rubbish but think they are know it all. The dooktors and other armchair muftis who read a few books here and there and watch a few shows on satellite tv and think they know it all. They claim to be enlightened, modern etc but on the day of judgement inshallah we shall see who has the last laugh inshallah. These ahlul bidah are far worse than the salafis, brelvis, jamaat e islami combined. These secular modernists who mock the sunnah and shariah deserve capital punishment and if there was a true islamic state they would surely be hanged for promoting such kufr. Until then we must use the jihad of the tongue and pen against them and refute all their kufr. However such members should never be given a platform to speak and I wonder how such people are allowed to continuously mock the shariah and sunnah on sunniforum and get away with it.

[TOD4wDTQ]

7) How is the unity between Deobandies and those from other
Manahij?

Deobandi Tablighis keep generally a very low profile (i.e. don't advertise themselves as Deobandis, nor
taclke contentious issues, especially regarding Salafis) and thus collaborate very well with other non-
Deobandi Tablighis of other ethnicities (as for example “Salafi” Tablighis, which are a very common
feature among the Arab Tablighis in Europe, or black-African, Albanians and convert Tablighis, etc); I
would say that only Indo-Pak Barelwis attack “Deobandis” as such; other oppositions (for example
from certain salafis, modernists etc.) being only directed to the Tabligh effort in itself.

Otherwise, outside the effort of Tabligh, the Indo-Paki communities are generally quite isolated and a
part from the Arab communities, who instead hold the monopoly of the officially recognized Islamic
associations, etc.

There is this common trend for which the mosques runned by Arabs (of whatever tendency) are seen
by the whole Islamic community as “mosques for everybody”, while instead, the mosques runned by
other communities (Bengali-Pakistani, Turkish or Senegalese) are somehow considered to be “ethnic
mosques” by those not being part of that particular ethnicity, and thus are almost exclusively attended
by people of that particular ethnicity, which is indeed very sad.

And in fact, even though the Tablighi brothers masha'Allah make many efforts for Da'wah, when an
Italian is interested in Islam and want to ask some information or to visit a mosque, he will typically
show up at his local Arab-runned mosque; somehow they are more popular, have more official ties
with the authorities and have thus an aura of being “official”.

[nursopoutaras]

I wish I was getting similar info about other countries too.
If, dear reader, you have a similar vantage point so that you can talk about the situation in Spain, France, Germany or any other country then kindly do not deprive us of the description of the perspective you have. in advance.
Wassalam

[TOD4wDTQ]

8) How do children and adults acquire knowledge on the basics of Islam (learning to read the Quran, basic Fiqh etc)?

Tablighis in some cities have started weekly maktab classes masha'Allah, and they are the exception,
as usual. Further, as mentioned previously, I've heard of a madrasa dedicated to hifz having started to
operate in Northern Italy.

Arabs generally are only concerned with teaching Arabic (not Qur'an, just modern Arabic language) to
their children; everything else is taken from here and there (Iqra TV (a popular Saudi Ikhwani-Salafi
“Islamic Channel”), internet, asking around, self-studying), for those who care a minimum. Otherwise,
you can find brothers born here who don't even know how to perform wudu'.

Generally, carelessness and do-it-yourself approaches are the norm: people most of the times is
satisfied with the very little they know, and the idea of asking to `Ulama' is almost unexistent, as
everyone is a Mufti here, and suffice himself with reading on his own the Holy Qur'an and deriving the
rulings as he deems fit..

[TOD4wDTQ]

9) What systems do you have in place for social problems and
arbitrations (marriage problems, inheritance issues etc)?

No system in place for these problems; people just do what they want, at most they ask something to
the local jahil Imam, which in turn very often provide non-sensical wrong responses; the very few
really concerned people may call some Muftis abroad for a ruling.

[TOD4wDTQ]

10) What systems do you have for Islamic civic law (Nikah, ghusl of
deceased, burial, Faskh, inheritance etc)?

No organized system at all! This is another result of our lack of effective organization in our
communities. Things are run in a completely random way, with no care for the effective Shari`ah
guidelines.

Ghusl and burial are generally taken care of by each local community according to what they know
about it, with a member of the community being informally in charge of that.

For inheritance, please see previous question.

And regarding marriage-faskh, it should be noted that we have huge problems in its regards: I
believe that a lot of people who think they are married, are not really so, due to the complete
ignorance of how a nikah has to be conducted according to Shari'ah:, or because people who give a
dvorce, once upon changing their mind, they just ignore what they have said/done and go on with life
as if nothing happened.

Ultimately, no adequate importance is given to Din, and this shows up in the lack of care and taqwa
with which these issues are dealt with.

[qilmuz6v]

I think I will copy the questions of this thread and answer them according to the situation in Denmark (in a new thread that is).