[propolo]

In Islam, Adultery is punished by stoning and if 4 people claim to have seen someone committing adultery then the punishment is carried out

My question is how do we know the 4 people are telling the truth? 4 people can easily conspire together to kill someone, so what if 4 people accuse someone of adultery and get him killed? They can do it over and over again with anyone whom they hate

Under an Islamic State, what is there to prevent this from happening? This is not something that would take place rarely, it could in fact happen all the time. The Quran only mentions 4 witnesses as the requirement for the punishment, but is that all that is required? Wouldn't that mean that 4 friends can team up together against someone and have him killed by falsely accusing him of adultery?

[Eujacwta]

In Islam, Adultery is punished by stoning and if 4 people claim to have seen someone committing adultery then the punishment is carried out

My question is how do we know the 4 people are telling the truth? 4 people can easily conspire together to kill someone, so what if 4 people accuse someone of adultery and get him killed? They can do it over and over again with anyone whom they hate

Under an Islamic State, what is there to prevent this from happening? This is not something that would take place rarely, it could in fact happen all the time. The Quran only mentions 4 witnesses as the requirement for the punishment, but is that all that is required? Wouldn't that mean that 4 friends can team up together against someone and have him killed by falsely accusing him of adultery?

If four evil people team up to harm others they can harm them in a million ways.

They could make very strong false accusations for all sorts of things in any legal system.

They could also murder the person or do hundreds of other things against them in any legal system.

I don't know why you associate it with the accusation for adultery especially.

[propolo]

If four evil people team up to harm others they can harm them in a million ways.

They could make very strong false accusations for all sorts of things in any legal system.

They could also murder the person or do hundreds of other things against them in any legal system.

I don't know why you associate it with the accusation for adultery especially.

because the Quran only mentions 4 witnesses when referring to punishment for Zina, Im asking if there's anything else required to verify their claim besides their word

[jhfkgkfdvjk]

4 credible witnesses, and they would also be cross examined independently by competent people

these matters are not taken lightly

there is a whole shariah system,and the hudood is not the aim

also those bearing false witness are also warned and punished,so witnesses better be truthful, they are not just taken as they say so
even their lifestyles and personal conduct could be brought up

[propolo]

4 credible witnesses, and they would also be cross examined independently by competent people

these matters are not taken lightly

there is a whole shariah system,and the hudood is not the aim

also those bearing false witness are also warned and punished,so witnesses better be truthful, they are not just taken as they say so
even their lifestyles and personal conduct could be brought up

From what I understand, they are considered to be liars if in the past they had falsely accused someone of adultery without witnesses. But this is something very rare as there are very few people who have been guilty of this

Other than that I have not seen anything in the Quran or anywhere else about the character of the witnesses being examined (except them being insane for example or that kind of thing)

But 4 or more evil clever people who want to kill an innocent person could easily conspire together. One possibility that comes to my mind is that someone actually commits adultery, then a group of people who witness it decide to reveal this but then the real adulterer gets his friends or relatives to side with him and threaten to falsely accuse one of the witnesses of adultery if he tells the truth.
Now what happens is that one of the 4 real witnesses has decided not to confess due to being threatened and the 3 honest witnesses will be punished by the Judge for failing to bring another witness... and since they are honest Muslims, they wont tell anyone to give false witness and end up being punished by the Judge themselves... So 3 of the real witnesses end up being punished and the real adulterer is unharmed!!!

Another very likely possibility is that an adulterer is killed but then his family decide to take revenge, so they conspire against the people who witnessed the adultery and falsely accuse them of adultery or pay people to falsely accuse them of adultery. Now what happens? The innocent witnesses are punished??


There are numerous other such scenarios that I've thought of and it didn't take too much time for me to come up with these thoughts. This is why I feel there has to be something other than just 4 witnesses required for punishing this or any other crime

[Enliseell]

There are numerous other such scenarios that I've thought of and it didn't take too much time for me to come up with these thoughts. This is why I feel there has to be something other than just 4 witnesses required for punishing this or any other crime

The ruling regarding such things are complicated and not simplified as you just mentioned. Most of us here do not have indepth knowledge of the shariah, so you can't expect a detailed answer either. Allah's Law suffices for All of Mankind.

[johobuo]

It has to be four upright witnesses, meaning they have to be known to be pious and truthful. There are conditions that have to be fulfilled and they are so stringent that the scholars say most people would not fulfil them.

And if you look at our history, the only cases of stoning occurring for adultery happen as a result of confession, not as a result of witnesses (the reason being it is almost impossible for people to fulfil the four witnesses condition).

[NvrNoNowX]

In Islam, Adultery is punished by stoning and if 4 people claim to have seen someone committing adultery then the punishment is carried out

My question is how do we know the 4 people are telling the truth? 4 people can easily conspire together to kill someone, so what if 4 people accuse someone of adultery and get him killed? They can do it over and over again with anyone whom they hate

Under an Islamic State, what is there to prevent this from happening? This is not something that would take place rarely, it could in fact happen all the time. The Quran only mentions 4 witnesses as the requirement for the punishment, but is that all that is required? Wouldn't that mean that 4 friends can team up together against someone and have him killed by falsely accusing him of adultery?

No, this does not, and could not happen "all the time" because the punishment for giving a false testimony against a chaste woman/man is 80 lashes.
And those who accuse chaste women and then do not produce four witnesses - lash them with eighty lashes and do not accept from them testimony ever after. (24:4)

I dont think many people are willing to risk such a punishment. So the chances of this happening is very small.

Also, the four witnesses unanimously have to testify as witnesses to the zina. If even one of them retracts their testimony, all four of them will be lashed 80 lashes. So for this to happen, the four liars would have to have immense trust in each other.

And another thing, the four liars will have their backgrounds checked. If they are known as pious and truthful people among their society, their testimony will be accepted. But since these four people are planning to lie against a chaste man/woman and are prepared to take an oath on it, chances are, they are NOT known as pious or truthful people among their society, and therefore, their testimony will NOT be accepted.

And if for some reason, the four liars get lucky and their testimony is accepted (very small chance of this happening, considering all the things mentioned above), then its not like they've gotten away with it. Allah's curse shall be upon them, and they shall have a severe punishment in the after life.
And the fifth [oath will be] that the curse of Allah be upon him if he should be among the liars. (24:7) (

And the chaste man/woman who was stoned will have died as a martyr and will attain the highest ranks of Jannah.

So in the end, who wins?

[jimbomaxf]

But 4 or more evil clever people who want to kill an innocent person could easily conspire together.

Only if it was Allah's will to allow them to do so. Otherwise, you can have 4 billion people conspiring together to kill one person and they would not be able to harm even a single hair on this person's body.

[interbaoui]

Those that bear false testimony are punished by flogging.

All four will have to have an airtight story without any contradictions. If there is a contradiction, all four are punished by flogging.

There should be no evidence or witness that could cast a reasonable doubt on the claims of the accusers. If there is any evidence or reasonable doubt, then all four of the accusers are punished.

[raspirator]

Under an Islamic state, a man's testimony is held in high value, not cheap value as is common in societies which seek the dunya over the akhira.
Under an Islamic state, a Muslim, a Mumin, is held in HIGH esteem and TAQWA is supported by the state, the society, the people.

TAQWA is the fiber which bounds an Islamic society, and it is known that no one is better than any other except through TAQWA. Today, in unIslamic societies, wealth, class, name, gender, profession, nationality, race, ethnicity all play powerful roles in criminal justice systems.

Incidently, here in Dubai, there was recently a case of a French businessman driving his car who cut off a car driven by two plain clothed Emirati policeman The police drove up to the Frenchman and flashed their badges and he responded with a middle finger (eg. the bird). He was subsequently arrested and taken to court wherein he made a defense. His defense was he was of too high a class, an aviation engineer by training, and too well educated and too mature ( aged 59) to have responded with a insulting jester as "the bird".

[propolo]

No, this does not, and could not happen "all the time" because the punishment for giving a false testimony against a chaste woman/man is 80 lashes.
And those who accuse chaste women and then do not produce four witnesses - lash them with eighty lashes and do not accept from them testimony ever after. (24:4)

I dont think many people are willing to risk such a punishment. So the chances of this happening is very small.

Also, the four witnesses unanimously have to testify as witnesses to the zina. If even one of them retracts their testimony, all four of them will be lashed 80 lashes. So for this to happen, the four liars would have to have immense trust in each other.

To me it seems that a group of people conspiring together are LESS LIKELY to retract their testimony than 4 real witnesses. This is because 4 real witnesses are likely to be afraid that the other person wont bear witness (for various reasons, for example one might not remember the details correctly), so one of the four could retract his witness out of fear and then the other 3 real witnesses will be punished (despite telling the truth)

However if a group of evil people conspire together and plan ahead what they are going to tell the Judge, then they have less to fear. The truthful witnesses cant be sure that the other witnesses are willing to bear witness, but the liars already know what they are all going to say

So it seems to me that truthful people are more likely to be punished with 80 lashes than a group of intelligent liars. Let's say the leader of a company wants to kill one of his opponents, then he pays 20 people to bear false witness against his opponent. Now even if a few of them decide to go against the plan, the plan would still go ahead and the innocent person will get killed
But if a group of people have really witnessed adultery they could end up getting 80 lashes despite telling the truth and intending to do what is right...

So it seems to me that the innocent are more likely to suffer than the actual adulterers, that is if 4 witnesses is all that is required

And another thing, the four liars will have their backgrounds checked. If they are known as pious and truthful people among their society, their testimony will be accepted. But since these four people are planning to lie against a chaste man/woman and are prepared to take an oath on it, chances are, they are NOT known as pious or truthful people among their society, and therefore, their testimony will NOT be accepted.

This doesn't make sense to me at all for the following reasons. Firstly the Quran says that only Allah knows what is in your hearts, so it's not possible to know if someone is a liar or not, we can only assume. I mentioned earlier that the method the Quran gives is simply that if someone had previously made a false accusation then his accusation would not be accepted, but remember that "false accusation" simply means not being able to find 4 witnesses, meaning that the person could actually be truthful and failed to convince the other witnesses to bear witness because they were afraid of the possibility of the 80 lashes punishment

And I dont know of any verse of the Quran or any Hadith that mentions any other method of identifying "Liars" in regards to people who claim to have witnessed adultery, so I dont know what other "methods" you are referring to. If you are speaking from knowledge please show me the verse or Hadith that gives another method of identifying such liars as this is what I've been asking for since the beginning.

And if for some reason, the four liars get lucky and their testimony is accepted (very small chance of this happening, considering all the things mentioned above)

To me it actually seems there is a much greater chance of the truthful being punished than the liars for the reasons I have explained so far. An intelligent liar would not bear witness to adultery on his own, knowing that he will be punished if he does.

However a truthful person could bear witness that someone has committed adultery because he has seen it, but he is unable to find witnesses. A truthful person is therefore more likely to get into trouble.
As for a truthful person who does know the law and bears witness knowing that there were more witnesses could still be punished because the other witnesses may fear bearing witness. So again the truthful is more likely to be punished than the liars...


I have also read of an incident during the rule of Umar bin Khattab when 4 people witnessed adultery and told him, then he asked them if they actually saw the private part "going in" and 3 of them said they did but one of them said he was not sure, so the Caliph ordered them to be given 80 lashes...

So because of the honesty of one of the witnesses, they were punished. Now let's think about a similar scenario where the witnesses are lying. When the Judge or the Caliph asks them if they saw it "going in" they would all obviously reply YES, and the innocent victim would be stoned to death and the liars will have their way.
But in a case where the 4 witnesses are very honest and truthful, they could end up being punished because some of them may admit to not seeing the full details or that they are unsure of what they saw.

Also take into consideration that a pious person who sees people having sex would quickly turn away and wont stare at their genitals, so when this pious witness goes to court he will of course say that he is UNSURE of what he saw, and this then results in the other truthful witnesses being punished...
A liar however would claim he is SURE he saw it "going in" and would confirm the same details as the rest of the liars.

[ORDERCHEAPVIAGRASOFTWARE]

brother elephant,

The trial process should be thorough. It would be hard to tell that on this forum as how "thorough" will be considered as, well, thorough enough. Are you a lawyer? If so, then you should be familiar as what is meant by thoroughness. If you are not a lawyer, then I would suggest to inquiry about the trial and cross-examination process and so forth from any lawyer that you might know. And of course the court will have to use any tools, lawful information/evidence gathering techniques and everything else that's available during the investigation and trial process as to uphold justice.

Allah Knows Best.

[propolo]

brother elephant,

The trial process should be thorough. It would be hard to tell that on this forum as how "thorough" will be considered as, well, thorough enough. Are you a lawyer? If so, then you should be familiar as what is meant by thoroughness. If you are not a lawyer, then I would suggest to inquiry about the trial and cross-examination process and so forth from any lawyer that you might know. And of course the court will have to use any tools, lawful information/evidence gathering techniques and everything else that's available during the investigation and trial process as to uphold justice.

Allah Knows Best.

wa 'alaikumussalam wr wb

All Im asking for is evidence from the Quran or Hadith about this "thoroughness" that you speak of. The Quran only mentions "four witnesses".

[ORDERCHEAPVIAGRASOFTWARE]

wa 'alaikumussalam wr wb

All Im asking for is evidence from the Quran or Hadith about this "thoroughness" that you speak of. The Quran only mentions "four witnesses".

if you want to see the "thoroughness" in the sharia implementation specifically in the topic you mentioned, the best way to do that is to check on the precedence as set forth by the previous Islamic states. You'll have to dig from the Ottoman empire, all the way down to what ever sources that might lead to the way the same cases handled by the Prophet (I'm starting with the Ottoman Empire first and then going backward in time as to denote the volume of references, and needless to say that the sunnah by the Prophet is the one that we should follow, as was also followed by the previous Islamic states who implement sharia). The cross examination process of the witnesses definitely can be improved upon as long as the methodology is permitted by the sharia.

Allah Knows Best.