[mashabox]

Reformists need reform themselves, they are sooooooooooooo yesterday.

That is mega.

[shiciapsisy]

:

it's always the same method that is applied by these reformers/intellectuals/murtads/fassiqs :

first and foremost they'll state "we must of course obey quran and sunnah"

then they say that such and such thing is "a wrong interpretation" that nobody in 14+ centuries thought except them;

and they innerly perfectly know it's from deen.

They want to let us know "other interpretations" are infinitely possible and that we should listen to them if we are to succeed etc.,

all of that according to their shaytani nafs.

this is very much how it is.

[shiciapsisy]

If she is talking about woman's rights, subjugation and oppression, its because we [the men] have failed her.
I feel pity for her and anger for her [late] father King Saud.

Assalamu Alaikum wa Rahmatullah wa Barakatuh

you seem to know a lot about her, can you give us some particular examples of how men have failed her and was that in Saudi, London, Paris, New York or Dubai or any of the other places that she has probably spent much time in, happily spending large piles of the wealth of Saudis oil that enriches her family?

maybe you have in depth knowledge of how her African or Pakistani man-servants have failed to keep her fleet of cars shiny enough, or let her topiary become a little miss-shapen whilst they were trimming it for hours on end in 45 degrees weather? or did they fail to put enough shine on her gold taps?

May Allah bless and guide this woman - who has lived in the spoiled comfort provided by her family all her life

- a comfort that was gained only through the alliance of her family with the Wahhabi revivalist movement the brothers of which spilled their blood in great amounts so that the Saud's could rule Arabia in the name of Islam -

- and now this spoiled woman whose views are far from the Quran and Sunnah (although she thinks she knows better about them than the Ulema through the ages) is using her position to challenge established Islamic values in the country that is a the heart of the Muslim Ummah.

She is talking about various things and not everything she is describing is a lie

- but the only truly wrong things that are happening in Saudi that she is criticizing

are things that are contrary to the real Islam, that she is trying to undermine, any-way.

[gniewkoit]

Giving a woman more rights always leads to social chaos. Look at the west, as soon as the women started working and had independence, everything fell apart.

Glad to see you after a long time.

[chuecaloversvv]

وعليكم السلام

[pkxlugbsbv]

Giving a woman more rights always leads to social chaos. Look at the west, as soon as the women started working and had independence, everything fell apart.

Indeed. But saying this in this way has made it sound primitive in the present climate of opinion. You cannot say it like that without being branded a bigot and ridiculed even if it is true you will not be able to openly say it.

The story that we are all forced to accept is that women are and were oppressed victims of male dominance. That to be free women needed to become wage earners and tax payers. That employers would get two workers for the price of one (more supply of labour decreases the wages) was left unmentioned. Of course Islam does allow women to be independent, a property owner and a business woman all of which were not allowed by Christianity and or Judaism. Women have been presented as victims and now they have gained the upper hand and society is now malfunctioning as a result. This was planned by the ruling elites to prevent resistance to their economic system of slavery. Smart women should question their schooling and indoctrination, all is not as it seems. Freedom does not exist down the road that they want to go...it is illusory.

[chuecaloversvv]

Indeed. But saying this in this way has made it sound primitive in the present climate of opinion. You cannot say it like that without being branded a bigot and ridiculed even if it is true you will not be able to openly say it.

Assalamu alakyum, I realise that. But I don't care. It is politically incorrect to say anything that is against the liberal agenda these days.


The story that we are all forced to accept is that women are and were oppressed victims of male dominance. That to be free women needed to become wage earners and tax payers. That employers would get two workers for the price of one (more supply of labour decreases the wages) was left unmentioned. Of course Islam does allow women to be independent, a property owner and a business woman all of which were not allowed by Christianity and or Judaism. Women have been presented as victims and now they have gained the upper hand and society is now malfunctioning as a result. This was planned by the ruling elites to prevent resistance to their economic system of slavery. Smart women should question their schooling and indoctrination, all is not as it seems. Freedom does not exist down the road that they want to go...it is illusory. Islam doesn't allow women to be independent in the way that liberals want, they can't even travel alone, and with good reason. We shouldn't try to sugar coat the facts in order to please these white liberal kuffar, doing so only makes us look weak. A stable society is one in which women stay at home and raise the kids, not pursuing a career until they're 40 then suddenly realising they want a child but can't.

[pkxlugbsbv]

Walaykum salaam

Women are independent in Islam in the sense that they can own property and inherit it, they can also run their own business. This was not allowed in Christianity and Judaism. A Muslim woman when she marries is not even obliged to take the name of her husband, she can keep her maiden name. Women in the time of the sahaba did not just stay at home...Slave women worked and did not wear hijab.

Liberals and secularists are dogmatic bigots of course, but in some ways they are just reacting to their own societies Christian foundations...if women had been able to own property and run a business there would not have been a secular reaction.

I have read that all this feminism and anti-racism has been promoted by a communist think tank known as the Frankfurt School...they wanted to undermine western society but knew that the working class revolution would never come about so they chose minority races, women and homosexuals as possible allies...but they had to be told they have been oppressed victims...and of course the ruling class do not mind such divisive movements as long as they can continue to have their economic system functioning complete with usury (riba), fractional reserve banking, fiat currencies, banker bailouts and tax revenue going towards the payment of interest on the National Debt borrowed by Secular Democratic governments on behalf of 'the people' who are in fact trapped and not 'free'.

Assalamu alakyum, I realise that. But I don't care. It is politically incorrect to say anything that is against the liberal agenda these days.


Islam doesn't allow women to be independent in the way that liberals want, they can't even travel alone, and with good reason. We shouldn't try to sugar coat the facts in order to please these white liberal kuffar, doing so only makes us look weak. A stable society is one in which women stay at home and raise the kids, not pursuing a career until they're 40 then suddenly realising they want a child but can't.

[SimSlim]

Giving a woman more rights always leads to social chaos. Look at the west, as soon as the women started working and had independence, everything fell apart.

Assalamu alaykum

brother you are right

[lXwVlTgO]

MashaAllah bas minuu biyasma3 ha? :-(

[Quiniacab]

Assalamu Alaikum wa Rahmatullah wa Barakatuh

you seem to know a lot about her, can you give us some particular examples of how men have failed her and was that in Saudi, London, Paris, New York or Dubai or any of the other places that she has probably spent much time in, happily spending large piles of the wealth of Saudis oil that enriches her family?

maybe you have in depth knowledge of how her African or Pakistani man-servants have failed to keep her fleet of cars shiny enough, or let her topiary become a little miss-shapen whilst they were trimming it for hours on end in 45 degrees weather? or did they fail to put enough shine on her gold taps?

May Allah bless and guide this woman - who has lived in the spoiled comfort provided by her family all her life

- a comfort that was gained only through the alliance of her family with the Wahhabi revivalist movement the brothers of which spilled their blood in great amounts so that the Saud's could rule Arabia in the name of Islam -

- and now this spoiled woman whose views are far from the Quran and Sunnah (although she thinks she knows better about them than the Ulema through the ages) is using her position to challenge established Islamic values in the country that is a the heart of the Muslim Ummah.

She is talking about various things and not everything she is describing is a lie

- but the only truly wrong things that are happening in Saudi that she is criticizing

are things that are contrary to the real Islam, that she is trying to undermine, any-way.

First explain to me why you have been such sarcastic in your post

[shiciapsisy]

First explain to me why you have such sarcastic in your post

sarcastic, what is that?

[Quiniacab]

First let us give them their rights before worrying about such things. If we really had given them their rights, such things wouldn't have come to pass. He has an opinion and I respect that.

Update: I'm sorry, yes bro uber_mensch he has become a Muslim and declared it here Dubble Bed

Bro mh16388 has rightly pointed out that this thread isn't about women per se, but with the modernists/secularists, so I'll leave it at that.

[shiciapsisy]

First let us give them their rights before worrying about such things.

If we really had given them their rights, such things wouldn't have come to pass.

If by their rights you mean the one's that Allah gave them then you are exactly correct.

[Quiniacab]

If by their rights you mean the one's that Allah gave them then you are exactly correct.

Of-course I mean the rights given to them in the Shariah [by Allah SWT]

[mashabox]

Brother Pluto do you remember some excellent dissection that Dr Abu Tamim used to do here? I mean the link.

[Quiniacab]

Brother Pluto do you remember some excellent dissection that Dr Abu Tamim used to do here? I mean the link.

Yes I'll post the links, have to check my mailbox for his old threads.

[Heacechig]

She's a Saudi, her opinion is probably as good as their scholars.

I'm only kidding but seriously, sometimes their interpretations can be pretty warped.

#1. I completely agree. There needs to be a written legal code in this day and age, only interpretation should be left to the judges. This isn't the age of mujtahids.

#2. This sounds like she's complaining about corruption. Divorce is not supposed to be done by bribing the court with thousands of riyals, that isn't Islamic.

#3. I'm not sure I blame her. I wouldn't want to learn fiqh or hadith in KSA either. She might take a different stance if she had a proper education including the philosophy behind each of these subjects. Attention also needs to be focused on these people who send their children overseas to get an education. The King's building universities everywhere and still sends the royal family to Western countries? Why?

#4. Complaining about corruption again. Corruption automatically hits women the hardest in any society where they are dependent on men to provide for them. It increases their dependence on men beyond what is necessary.

#5. Jokes about women driving aside, the Saudi policy is kind of strange. It seems the angle of both camps (those in favor and those opposed) is dependent on the unique culture of KSA. There isn't a problem with women driving in other Muslim countries (it hasn't affected the culture, most of the Muslim world has been becoming increasingly religious and often it's been the women leading the charge). But KSA is very wealthy unlike the rest of the Muslim world. Though in principle I would obviously like to see women being allowed to drive and move about their own cities and areas freely, I do think long term consequences on a culture which seems to have every worldly inclination to turn away from religion could be very bad. However the policy against driving wasn't made in this context, it was made before the country became wealthy, so I'm not giving their scholars the benefit of the doubt here but looking at the ground reality.

[shiciapsisy]

She is Saudi by the blood of her father but it seems in many ways little more -


In an interview in the Independent she described Saudi as an alien place like 'Mars'


In fact she herself grew up in the....


Middle East's then most cosmopolitan city, the Lebanese capital of Beirut,

where the young princess was schooled by French nuns

among Christians, Jews

and Muslims who did not adhere to the austere ... Islam...


schooled by nuns with Jews and Christians? that explains a lot


She then moved on to the European establishment schools of....

Hertfordshire girls' school and an international college in Oxford before spending two years studying in Switzerland.


and nowadays she lives in Acton, West London -

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/pe...a-6284225.html[/I]



Wikipedia is more interesting in the words it uses to describe her education...

In Beirut, Princess Basma attended a French Christian missionary school

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basma_bint_Saud


after her unfortunate upbringing maybe it is a wonder that she is a Muslim at all?


maybe she is not the most Saudi of the Saudis after all brother?

[shiciapsisy]

from the wisdom of the Saudi Princess of West London....

"We are overlooking essential rights of a human being -

the right to mix between the sexes...[/B]...

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/pe...a-6284225.html

and the Independent describes her as an Islamic scholar too