[TyncTyncSah]

Asalaamu 'alaykum

This question is specifically for Deobandis.

Is what is mentioned in this article below shirk?


[...] with regards to seeking help directly from the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) and other righteous servants of Allah [...]

Seeking help from other than Allah (istighatha)

If by seeking help from the Prophets and pious means making them an intermediary between the seeker and Allah, then there is nothing wrong in seeking their help. Tawassul (using intermediaries in supplication to Allah) through the Prophet (Allah bless him & give him peace), Awliya and righteous believers is permitted, rather recommended according to the four schools of Sunni Islam.

It is quite perfectly permissible for one to seek the help of a Prophet or a righteous person by asking him to pray to Allah on one's behalf, or to use him as an intermediary when praying directly to Allah. Explicit narrations and implicit indications of the Qur'an fully justify this practice, and it would be wrong to condemn it as being forbidden or to include it among the various forms of polytheism (shirk). (Search for details and the various evidences on the permissibility of Tawassul, the archives on this website).

This Tawassul may be expressed by using any phrase or done in any form, including:

1) Wasila (supplicating Allah through a means),

2) Istighatha (calling upon someone for help as a intermediary, through Allah's love and concern for them),

3) Isti'ana (seeking someone's assistance, through Allah's granting).

When one seeks help from the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) or one of the righteous, the intention is to gain their intercession (shafa'a) and mediation before Allah Almighty, because of Allah's love and concern for them.

Tawassul (supplicating Allah through a means) through a living or deceased intermediary is not the seeking of assistance from a physical body, or through a life or death; rather, it is to seek assistance through the positive meaning attached to the person in both life and death, and due to their rank with Allah, for the body is but the vehicle that carries that significance.

However, if one seeks the help of a Prophet, saint or any other creation of Allah believing him to be omnipotent like Allah, then this is polytheism (shirk) and can never be considered permissible. Similarly, one believes that Allah alone is Omnipotent, but also believes that He has delegated a part of His power to an angel, a Prophet or a saint who exercises full and independent authority in that area, then this will also be considered Shirk, and thus forbidden.

The above are the two types of requests which the Qur'an forbids, and against which it warns us in the opening Surah:

"We worship you alone and only your aid we seek." (al-Fatiha, 5)

The great late Syrian scholar, Shaykh Muhammad al-Hamid (Allah have mercy on him) explains:

"As for someone who believes that those called upon can cause effects, benefit, or harm, which they create or cause to exist as Allah does, such a person is an idolater who has left Islam." (See: Reliance of the Traveller, P. 940)

Therefore, there is nothing wrong in using the Prophets, saints and the righteous as intermediaries to Allah, through any of the abovementioned means, as long as one does not believe them to have the power to benefit or harm in of them selves. Personally I believe that it is shirk, and that the author is wrongly interchanging between the terms tawassul, istigatha and istiana. Tawassul is permissable or at worse a disputed fiqh issue, whereas the other two are clear shirk,

So I would like to know what to do Deobandi scholars believe?

And if they believe its not allowed then what would be the ruling on one who propogates the above beliefs? Should one avoid praying behind such a person?

[TyncTyncSah]

Ive read this article by Mufti Taqi Usmani Sahib
http://www.deoband.org/2010/05/hadit...om-the-sunnah/

Is Mufti Sahib referring to the above belief in this quote from the linked article:

First: the purpose of the mutawassil (the one performing tawassul) is that the Real Giver is Allah (Glorified and Exalted is He), but He authorises these matters to a servant from among His pious servants. So he remembers Allah (Glorified is He) in du’a seeking blessing through His name, but the objective is du’a to the mutawassal bihi (the intermediary), because it is through his execution the matters come to pass according to his belief. This is shirk by ijma’ (consensus).

[EsAllCams]

This is Mufti ibn Adam al-Kawthari's fatwa, isn't it?

Anyways, the quote from Mufti Taqi Usmani you've quoted isn't referring to what is mentioned in the fatwa, but rather a person who believes that a creation is granting du`a through his own power.

As for that actual fatwa, then I believe the Ulema of Deoband would disagree with the fatwa in its apparent meaning (I say this because perhaps the writer did not intend to allow Istighatha in the sense that those who argue for it intend), but I'm not sure if they'd call it outright shirk.

Perhaps this fatwa from askImam will clarify things:

It is also not permissible to say “Ya Abdal Qadir Madad” with the belief that the angels will take the Nida (call) and the sheikh’s assistance is only by the will of Allah as this gives the hint of Shirk. The general masses do not differentiate between such fine issues.

http://askimam.org/fatwa/fatwa.php?a...d0d3d39c2effb7

[BaselBimbooooo]

the article does not say we can fix our hopes in people and ask them for wealth etc the person is still supplicating to Allah and not the person he is using so it may be against sunnah to some people but i am not seeing how it is shirk? They still believe that only Allah has the power to grant them what they are asking for

Go to those grave sites like I did and you'll see how it is shirk..and not just any kind of Shirk it's al-Shirk al-Akbar.

[bactrimtab]

When I hear this whole issue of asking the dead for help like asking them to make du'a for you, I get reminded of the mushriks of makkah who used the idols as intercessors instead of going to Allah directly. They would say, we only use these idols as intercessors between us and Allah because we are too inpure, and the idols are more closer to Allah. Something along these lines they would say.

[Galinastva]

Istighathah: Seeking aid from other than Allah
http://www.deoband.org/2010/09/aqida...er-than-allah/

Istighathah
http://www.deoband.org/2009/02/aqida...efs/istigatha/

[TyncTyncSah]

Walaykum Salaam

erm i think some of the original article has used incorrect wording, when they say for example calling on other than Allah for help. It is not actually the case... you are still relying on Allah but asking others to supplicate for you

the issue boils down to the dead being able to hear or not which is a disputed matter

the article does not say we can fix our hopes in people and ask them for wealth etc the person is still supplicating to Allah and not the person he is using so it may be against sunnah to some people but i am not seeing how it is shirk? They still believe that only Allah has the power to grant them what they are asking for

You're mixing up legimate tawassul and istigatha (which is shirk).
Read that article of Mufti Taqi Usmani that I posted.

When I hear this whole issue of asking the dead for help like asking them to make du'a for you, I get reminded of the mushriks of makkah who used the idols as intercessors instead of going to Allah directly. They would say, we only use these idols as intercessors between us and Allah because we are too inpure, and the idols are more closer to Allah. Something along these lines they would say.

ditto



[QUOTE-Ahmad-Shakeel] Istighathah: Seeking aid from other than Allah
http://www.deoband.org/2010/09/aqida...er-than-allah/

Istighathah
http://www.deoband.org/2009/02/aqida...efs/istigatha/
[/QUOTE]
JazakAllah Khair


I dont understand why these promoters of shirk are constantly "bigged up" by the Deobandis? If a Shia or Barelvi would say stuff like this no one would hesitate to call it shirk. But when someone of Deobandi-background (or an Arab Sufi) says it then they are still promoted as 'Sunni'. Why the double standards?

[TyncTyncSah]

this barelvi makes a good point about difference between upholding a principle and sectarianism.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oowlAdNYuug


(disclaimer: I dont agree with much of what he says but the point he is making is a valid one)

[Roamsaffots]

this barelvi makes a good point about difference between upholding a principle and sectarianism.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oowlAdNYuug


(disclaimer: I dont agree with much of what he says but the point he is making is a valid one)

Mashallah, I have listened to most of his lectures

[Centurnion]

One time I seen a person making ruku' to the Prophets grave, so I turned him around and made him face Makka.

[Hbkj89D2]

One time I seen a person making ruku' to the Prophets grave, so I turned him around and made him face Makka.

I used to do the same during my stay in Saudia even the ones maing dua facing the grave let alone making Ruku

[Rounteetepehryn]

When I hear this whole issue of asking the dead for help like asking them to make du'a for you, I get reminded of the mushriks of makkah who used the idols as intercessors instead of going to Allah directly. They would say, we only use these idols as intercessors between us and Allah because we are too inpure, and the idols are more closer to Allah. Something along these lines they would say.

Any reference for this? I've heard this many times, but I don't think I ever saw a reference.

[Tndfpcin]

Any reference for this? I've heard this many times, but I don't think I ever saw a reference.

According to Islamic theologians, the polytheists of Makkah didn’t believe that idols were gods but merely referred to them as such. Imam al-Mutakallimin ‘Allamah Sayyid Sharif Jurjani al-Hanafi (d. 816H / may Allah have mercy on him) writes, “Know that there is no opposition regarding this issue except that of the sanawiyyah (Zoroastrian dualists), not the wasniyyah (idol-worshipers). Verily they [the polytheists] do not believe that there are two necessarily-existent deities, nor do they ascribe the attributes of divinity (ilahiyyah) to the idols even though they referred to them with the word ‘aalihah‘ (deities), rather they adopted them as statues of the Prophets or the pious or the angels or the celestial objects, and adopted revering them in a manner of worship, using them as a means of reaching the One who is actually Divine [Allah].” (Sharh al-Mawaqif, p.580)

http://www.deoband.org/2010/09/aqida...er-than-allah/

[beenBinybelia]

When I hear this whole issue of asking the dead for help like asking them to make du'a for you, I get reminded of the mushriks of makkah who used the idols as intercessors instead of going to Allah directly. They would say, we only use these idols as intercessors between us and Allah because we are too inpure, and the idols are more closer to Allah. Something along these lines they would say.

spot on mate spot on

[XinordiX]

I read the link given to mufti taqi usmani's say on the issue of tawassul......what I want to know is this....

Is it Shirk to as a dead person to make du'a for you?

Mufti taqi usmani said its impermissible.....but is this shirk?

[eI7iqNot]

Is it Shirk to as a dead person to make du'a for you?

Mufti taqi usmani said its impermissible.....but is this shirk?

Where did he say so?

[TyncTyncSah]

Mufti Taqi Usmani in the Deoband.org article:

Third: tawassul in the sense of seeking du’a from the mutwassal bihi, because it is more hopeful that his du’a will be accepted by Allah (Glorified and Exalted is He) due to his righteousness and virtue. Tawassul in this sense is permissible by ijma’. This kind of tawassul has not been established except through the living, so its permissibility is restricted to the living.

[TyncTyncSah]

I read the link given to mufti taqi usmani's say on the issue of tawassul......what I want to know is this....

Is it Shirk to as a dead person to make du'a for you?

Mufti taqi usmani said its impermissible.....but is this shirk?

There are people who have called it shirk, but I dont see how it can be considered a tawheed vs. shirk issue. Many senior scholars have called it bid'ah or impermissable but I have yet to come across any senior scholar say it is shirk.

See this other thread:
http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/show...ke-dua-for-you

Sh. ibn Uthaymeen and Sh. Bakr Abu Zayd considered it bid'ah.

And amongst the Deobandis there seem to be different views.

Mufti Taqi Usmani and Ml. Ashraf Ali Thanvi say it is not permissable to ask the dead for du'a.

Ml. Yusuf Ludhianvi and Ml. Rashid Ahmed Gangohi also say it is not permissable but the Prophets are an exception to this. So they state it is permissable to request the Prophets for du'a.

[TyncTyncSah]

Going back to the topic of this thread.

Why dont Deobandis make bara' from those who propogate istighatha? The thing that made Deoband great was not their call for unity on the basis of obligating taqleed shakhsi, but it was their staunchness against shirk and bid'ah. Why the change in direction?

[Roamsaffots]

Going back to the topic of this thread.

Why dont Deobandis make bara' from those who propogate istighatha? The thing that made Deoband great was not their call for unity on the basis of obligating taqleed shakhsi, but it was their staunchness against shirk and bid'ah. Why the change in direction?

Almost like 'wahhabis' eh, classing everything as bidah