[AntonioMQ]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wuQ1oW5trfQ

[banditorfv]

Assalaamu Alaikum.
I heard that if "laa hawla wa laa quwata illaa bilaahil 'aleeul azeem" is recited , then shaitan becomes blind, his leg gets broken, he burns and hops away.
Is this true?

[L6RLnyfl]

for the video

I'm not happy with the title "spiritual master" though. A person who trims his beard, is not comfortable with full segregation and thinks music is permissible - is he really a "spiritual master"?

[Caunnysup]

for the video

I'm not happy with the title "spiritual master" though. A person who trims his beard, is not comfortable with full segregation and thinks music is permissible - is he really a "spiritual master"?

Beloved brother,
Maybe you ought to point your finger inwards instead.

[L6RLnyfl]

Beloved brother,
Maybe you ought to point your finger inwards instead.

You're right. I do need do that. Please pray for me. I don't wish to point fingers at others, and I'm not doing that - I'm asking a question.

My question is, is somebody that trims his beard worthy of being a "spiritual master"? I don't understand this. Alhamdulillah Allah ta'ala has given us Zaahiri signs of how to seek a teacher in Tasawwuf, and one of them is that the Shaykh is extremely particular on every Sunnah. A minimum fist-length beard is one of the most obvious ones of them. And before somebody says "make an excuse" etc - no, you can ask the Shaykh himself and he will tell you he intentionally trims his beard.

[Caunnysup]

You're right. I do need do that. Please pray for me. I don't wish to point fingers at others, and I'm not doing that - I'm asking a question.

My question is, is somebody that trims his beard worthy of being a "spiritual master"? I don't understand this. Alhamdulillah Allah ta'ala has given us Zaahiri signs of how to seek a teacher in Tasawwuf, and one of them is that the Shaykh is extremely particular on every Sunnah. A minimum fist-length beard is one of the most obvious ones of them. And before somebody says "make an excuse" etc - no, you can ask the Shaykh himself and he will tell you he intentionally trims his beard.

Wa iyyakum sidi.


Outside of the Indian subcontinent and its' offspring, many, if not most ´ulama and shuyukh lack fist length beards. That's a fact. Yes, according to the majority of classical scholars, and the so called relied-upon opinions, this sunnah is not properly fulfilled without it... unless of course, one cannot grow it. This makes many of the brothers from the Indian subcontinent look down on most Shuyukh who are not Indo-Pak. However, they do this while completely denying and ignoring some of the shortcomings and sins of their own shuyukh, often due to their own culture and surroundings. An example being some of the Deobandi shuyukh who basically allow the cast system to live on by disguising it in the garb of the Hanafi madhhab.

And there are other issues. I do not want to mention names, but allow me to demonstrate by using a very famous example: Let us take someone like the honorable shaykh Taqi Uthmani, may Allah preserve him. He is seen as a spiritual master by many on this website and elsewhere, yet he is a banker; and to many, a legalizer of Rib´a (!!!). From that point of view, how can he be a spiritual master? Now many will start to wave the flag of ikhtilaf in regards to the so called "Islamic" banking. But the fact remains, many do not believe that it is an ikhtilaf issue, but rather that it is clear cut haram, bid´ah and falsification of the Deen. However, if they were to propogate that view on this forum, they run the risk of being abused and banned.

wassalam

[L6RLnyfl]

Wa iyyakum sidi.


Outside of the Indian subcontinent and its' offspring, many, if not most ´ulama and shuyukh lack fist length beards. That's a fact. Yes, according to the majority of classical scholars, and the so called relied-upon opinions, this sunnah is not properly fulfilled without it... unless of course, one cannot grow it. This makes many of the brothers from the Indian subcontinent look down on most Shuyukh who are not Indo-Pak. However, they do this while completely denying and ignoring some of the shortcomings and sins of their own shuyukh, often due to their own culture and surroundings. An example being some of the Deobandi shuyukh who basically allow the cast system to live on by disguising it in the garb of the Hanafi madhhab.

And there are other issues. I do not want to mention names, but allow me to demonstrate by using a very famous example: Let us take someone like the honorable shaykh Taqi Uthmani, may Allah preserve him. He is seen as a spiritual master by many on this website and elsewhere, yet he is a banker; and to many, a legalizer of Rib´a (!!!). From that point of view, how can he be a spiritual master? Now many will start to wave the flag of ikhtilaf in regards to the so called "Islamic" banking. But the fact remains, many do not believe that it is an ikhtilaf issue, but rather that it is clear cut haram, bid´ah and falsification of the Deen. However, if they were to propogate that view on this forum, they run the risk of being abused and banned.

wassalam

for your patience with my question.

I don't agree with the analogy and here are some thoughts:

1. I have met nor heard of any single scholar claim that the Prophet had a trimmed beard according to their ijtihad/conclusions: I know you have not claimed this either, but I will use this in a later point.

2. Mufti Taqi arrives at his conclusion based on ijtihad, as do other scholars that agree with him. They genuinely believe the actions they are making to be a true representation of the Sunnah and Shari'ah - this is an ijtihadi difference and we know the hadith about correct and incorrect ijtihad.

3. The harshest critiques of Mufti Taqi are his own teachers, contemporaries and juniors that are followers of the same elders of Deoband. Yet, they all attest to his incredible taqwa. Thus, a fiqhi difference does not impact on your spiritual state (I believe this was the point on which you are defending Shaykh Babikir, but the objection will be clear at a later point below)

4. The issue with finance then, is not as clear-cut as a full grown beard. The Prophet did have a full-grown beard - on this fact there is no ikhtilaf. However, in the example of Islamic Banking, the issue is not clear-cut and there truly is ikhtilaf.

5. We can't bring any discussions of Fiqh into the beard discussion because a sufi ("spiritual master") has eliminated his ego and only sees Nabi Karim as his role-model. That's it. A sufi is subject to the highest of standards - isn't that the whole point of Tasawwuf?

[Caunnysup]

Belover brother,

I never claimed that the analogy was a hundred percent accurate, nor was it my aim. You say that people attest to Shaykh Taqi's piety and so on; the same can be said for Shaykh Babikir (may Allah Ta´ala preserve him). While neither I have heard anyone claim (let alone bring proof) that the Prophet (sallallahu ´alayhi wa alihi wa sallam) had a trimmed beard (and hence not Sunnah), similarly, "Islamic" banking is not a Sunnah, and it is usually not called as such even by its' biggest proponents; rather they often use words such as "Shari´ah compliant" etc. Just like Mufti Taqi (may Allah preserve him) and those likeminded arrived at their conclusion using ijtihad, so did the scholars who believe that a short beard is sufficient to fulfill the command of growing a beard. If we want to apply the Sunnah in the stricter sense, then what we can say for both is that they are not following the Sunnah in this. So if the "Islamic" bankers want to follow the Nabawi Sunnah, they should revert to the Dinar and Dirham, surely this is closer to the Sunnah of Al-Mustafa, sallallahu ´alayhi wa alihi wa sallam.

Yet some believe that these systems are compliant with the shari´ah, and therefore fulfills the sunnah (in a broader sense) for carrying our mu´amalat, paying zakah etc. Likewise, some ´ulama believe that a trimmed beard is "shari´ah compliant". If they would however claim that "Islamic" banking is "following the Sunnah", then, my beloved brother, I sincerely believe that they have failed miserably to substantiate such a view. As for the Hadith about correct and incorrect ijtihad, then it would equally apply to Shaykh Babikir as well.

Time after time you mention that the "Islamic finance" is a matter of ijtihad, a matter that is not clear cut... the point is, to many it is as clear as the sun at its' zenith. Either way, diving into a specific discussion like this is beside the point that I was making... and I have respect and admiration for Shaykh Taqi, may Allah preserve him. The point was that you had issues with Shaykh Babikir being called a "spiritual master". We could leave the world of finance and go into something else, such as the bad adab of some "recognized" shuyukh, or any other reprehensible issues, and the list goes on. The point is; you will be hard pressed to find Sufi shuyukh who are flawless, establish all the sunan, and never do anything that someone cannot call reprehensible. Where you may not see it, someone else might, and vice versa. No one is safe.

So to me, the greater deception in tasawwuf is people raising their shuyukh beyond humanity. Unfortunate as it may be, being a completely fulfilled follower of the Sunnah in the dhahir and batin, and having "arrived", stopped being a criteria a long long time ago... even if not on paper, at least in practice. Many of these Shuyukh did not "stand up as Shaykh", rather it was a burden placed on them by their own shuyukh, so they are carrying out the task that their teachers ordered them to do. It is their shuyukh who saw them fit, and they had their own criteria, whether you and I agree with them or not. Trust me, many of the shuyukh wish they could give it all up; at the same time there are others who see shaykh-hood as their graduation, after which they can cash in.

Wa'Allahu a´lam.
wassalam

[fudelholf]

I think it’s possible for a shaykh to have a radiant heart without having a long beard. This is the case with Shaykh Mokhtar Maghraoui and it could very well be the case with Shaykh Babikir too. Someone should approach him about the matter. Personally, my first reaction to someone who has a short beard is to put a big question mark over their Iman and become extra critical of what they have to say (with whatever knowledge i have) for the reasons brother Rahmaniyyah pointed out. With Shaykh Mokhtar Maghraoui though, it doesn’t bother me at all, as if his shinning heart and exceptional character blinds me from noticing.. :subhan: ta’aala. May Allah SWT love him so dearly and bring him ever closer to Him SWT. Ameen.Ameen Ameen.Ameen.

Barak Allah ta’aala.

[L6RLnyfl]

brother Rifai



I like your point about raising Shuyukh beyond humanity, and the Shuyukh being burdened with the responsibility - it's true.

As for the rest of your points, I do think they have already been addressed in my previous post and that you are mixing my points about the beard and the Islamic finance, but if you disagree you can ask a specific question.

Additionally, the Mashayikh I have had the opportunity to observe are extremely particular about each and every Sunnah. There are cases in which the Shaykh reprimands someone for stepping onto a Musalla with the left foot. I firmly believe that Allah ta'ala has kept Awliya in this Ummah that make the Sunnah their day and night and will accept no compromise. "thullatun minal awwalina wa qaleelun minal aakhireen" - there are few. Very few. But they exist, because Allah ta'ala will not give us a command to keep the Suhbah of the Sadiqeen if they were to disappear.

requesting your du'as

[Eh085zE7]

Wa iyyakum sidi.


Outside of the Indian subcontinent and its' offspring, many, if not most ´ulama and shuyukh lack fist length beards. That's a fact. Yes, according to the majority of classical scholars, and the so called relied-upon opinions, this sunnah is not properly fulfilled without it... unless of course, one cannot grow it. This makes many of the brothers from the Indian subcontinent look down on most Shuyukh who are not Indo-Pak. However, they do this while completely denying and ignoring some of the shortcomings and sins of their own shuyukh, often due to their own culture and surroundings. An example being some of the Deobandi shuyukh who basically allow the cast system to live on by disguising it in the garb of the Hanafi madhhab.

And there are other issues. I do not want to mention names, but allow me to demonstrate by using a very famous example: Let us take someone like the honorable shaykh Taqi Uthmani, may Allah preserve him. He is seen as a spiritual master by many on this website and elsewhere, yet he is a banker; and to many, a legalizer of Rib´a (!!!). From that point of view, how can he be a spiritual master? Now many will start to wave the flag of ikhtilaf in regards to the so called "Islamic" banking. But the fact remains, many do not believe that it is an ikhtilaf issue, but rather that it is clear cut haram, bid´ah and falsification of the Deen. However, if they were to propogate that view on this forum, they run the risk of being abused and banned.

wassalam

Brother Rifa'i, surely you see a world of difference between Ijtihadi issues such as Islamic finance (which Mufti Taqi does not avail himself of), Organ transplants, Photography, etc. and a confimed Sunnah of the Prophet (Allah bless him and grant him peace) which the vast majority of fuqaha have regarded as obligatory, and for which seriously regimental hard work is required to avoid practising?

Would you really hold no reservations in your heart in regarding as "spiritual masters", clean-shaven scholars, who eat with their left hand, miss their Eid and Witr Salat regularly, initiate greetings to Muslims with "Hello" rather than Salaam, and other acts that are in clear contravention of the Sunnah of the blessed Prophet (Allah bless him and grant him peace)?

We are fast approaching that time when such scholars will be in abundance.

Even if you feel that you would remain completely unconcerned by such scholars holding the station of "spiritual masters", please assume at least that the brothers who would hold strong reservations, would do so on account of their love and lament for the Sunnahs of the Prophet (Allah bless him and grant him peace), and their concern for the state of the Ummah, rather than due to pride.

[Caunnysup]

I would like to point out that I personally believe that it is superior to let the beard grow, and to only take from it at Hajj and Umrah. But like with other things, there are those that differ, and they are much more knowledgable than me. I have sat at the feet of many scholars who have trimmed beards (or even those who are clean shaven) and I can assure you that many of them are very pious people in general, just that they happen to differ/lack on this particular issue. If their general approach towards Sunnah is sound, I don't think it is fair to judge them and consider them to be less. We all have shortcomings, whether sufi-shuyukh or not. As much as I do not like to mention it, but even some of the greatest Awliya (the Sahaba) had their differences and at times even shortcomings in applying some sunan/abstaining from some makruhat (and even haram). We still consider them upright and sources for guidance. We are not Twelvers that we believe that there has to be ´isma (infallability). Especially if the shuyukh in question have adopted their opinion out of sincerity, and are known not to take easy and shadh opinions in general. I do not think that there is any doubt about the beard being a Sunnah, even with Shaykh Babikir (ha) and others. The question is what constitutes fulfillment of the Sunnah. Again, while I may not believe that a half-an-inch goatee fulfills the Sunnah, I will not discredit a Shaykh solely based on that, if he is known to be pious otherwise. While it is held to be makruh by some (as in the case of the mu´tamad of our school), there are others who commit what I believe is haram, yet they don't, so I do not judge them based on that; especially not if it's a "one off".

If a scholar is clean shaven, eat with his left, miss ´Id and Witr prayers on a regular basis (due to laxness) etc, then I may not recommend someone to take guidance from him in this matter; but that is because he is insisting upon leaving numerous sunan habitually. So while he may not be sinful, he is known to generally be lax in the Sunnah.

I do not doubt anyone's sincerity, but that also goes for the shuyukh, not only forum-posters.

wa'Allahu a´lam.
wassalam

[banditorfv]

No offence.
Just wanted to inform that we are going partly off-topic.

[Eh085zE7]

If a scholar is clean shaven, eat with his left, miss ´Id and Witr prayers on a regular basis (due to laxness) etc, then I may not recommend someone to take guidance from him in this matter; but that is because he is insisting upon leaving numerous sunan habitually. So while he may not be sinful, he is known to generally be lax in the Sunnah.

wa'Allahu a´lam.
wassalam

Your reservations in recommending such a scholar is founded on your love for the Sunnah. However, the emphasis on the Sunnah of the beard, far exceeds that on eating with right hand, using Miswaak, saying Salaams, and many other Sunnahs put together. The widespread neglect of the Sunnahs, accompanied by slogans of "it's only Sunnah", is clearly a cause of the deprivation of the Ummah from Allah's mercy.

I feel strongly that all deeni efforts will be bereft of barakah wherever the neglect of the Sunnah of the Prophet (Allah bless him and grant peace) continues to be implemented and propagated by practice. Your comment that the many of the ulama in the Arab lands do not adopt the Sunnah beard is very distressing and hurtful.

During the battle of Qadisiyyah, the believers were perplexed as to why Allah's assistance had been withheld when they were unable to conquer a major fort. Hadhrat Umar (Radhiallahu anhu) instructed the commander of the army to inspect the Muslim troops in order to search for any deficiency in the Sunnah in them. When it was discovered that the sunnah of Miswaak had been neglected, instructions were immediately issued to remedy the situation. Almost immediately the believers were granted a great victory.

If the state of our 'spiritual masters' is such, let alone that of the laity, what respite can the Ummah expect from its current humiliation?

[Caunnysup]

I do not think that there is any doubt in the harms of neglecting the Sunnah. The issue is that ´ulama have differed on what Sunnah entails here. I also do not believe that the Sunnah of the beard "far exceeds" that of the miswak and salams, more likely the opposite. Anyways, people are given the leaders that they deserve, and this includes their shuyukh. So Muslims need to blame themselves, for if they better themselves, Allah Ta´ala would change their state for the better. And even if we do believe that a short beard is a shortcoming in following the Sunnah, the scholar with the short beard isn't necessarily less of a master than the bearded one, for surely the latter may have other faults, often hidden so that we do not see them. How often do we not see that?

May Allah bless you sidi.

[hasasnn2345tv]

I do not think that there is any doubt in the harms of neglecting the Sunnah. The issue is that ´ulama have differed on what Sunnah entails here. I also do not believe that the Sunnah of the beard "far exceeds" that of the miswak and salams, more likely the opposite. Anyways, people are given the leaders that they deserve, and this includes their shuyukh. So Muslims need to blame themselves, for if they better themselves, Allah Ta´ala would change their state for the better. And even if we do believe that a short beard is a shortcoming in following the Sunnah, the scholar with the short beard isn't necessarily less of a master than the bearded one, for surely the latter may have other faults, often hidden so that we do not see them. How often do we not see that?

May Allah bless you sidi.

The hidden faults are those between the person and Allah . The shaykh with the hidden faults is not displaying them out for everyone to see and follow, whereas a shaved beard is not a hidden fault and can be (and has been) used to justify shaving amongst the laymen (i.e. so and so scholar shaves his beard so there is no harm in following him in doing the same). If a scholar indulges in something haraam in his private time, he is only harming himself. If he does so publicly, then he is not just harming himself, but others as well since he is supposed to be an example, an embodiment of his knowledge - and every action of his will be used to justify deficiencies amongst the awaam.

The ulama are the inheritors of the prophets and should not be deficient in any outward sunnah, especially something as simple as the beard. If a person has a genetic predisposition, then that is a completely different matter but it is not usually the case within the Arab world where shaving and trimming has become commonplace.

[Enjknsua]

Not to disrespect anybody, but isn't making a conscious decision to disobey the command of the Prophet indicative of an internal, hidden problem? (not just with regard to the beard, but when for example people say "so and so doesn't pray, but he has a good heart"...he may be a nice person but there is one aspect in which his heart is defective).

[Caunnysup]

Abdulwahhab,

The ´ulama are the inheritors, but not only in the outer aspects, also the inner aspects; or is all that they inherited a beard and short pants? Rather, they should not be deficient in any Sunnah if they are true embodiments of their inheritance, this includes their inner states. And I assure you, every single ´alim or shaykh on earth fails to live up to the Nabawi standard. The Shuyukh are not only emulated in their beard and dress, but in their akhlaq and other aspects. When I mentioned "hidden" I did not mean those which Allah Ta´ala has concealed from people, rather their acting contrary to the Sunnah in things other than the outer aspects (beard, clothes etc), such as displaying poor akhlaq etc. This is something we sometimes see from big bearded shuyukh as well. Some of them manage to conceal it in front of the masses, while those who get to sit and associate with them get to see their shortcomings. Other shuyukh have this bad akhlaq in public, speak ill, slander, talk down to people etc, and people do not raise an eyebrow; and if you do you are often being told that you cannot speak against the ´ulama etc. This is hypocrisy at it's best which is found in most communities, Deobandis included. I know clean shaven scholars who have the greatest akhlaq; and I know those with big beards who lack basic adab; yet they are hailed as Sufi Masters by tens of thousands.

wassalam

[km2000]

Not to disrespect anybody, but isn't making a conscious decision to disobey the command of the Prophet indicative of an internal, hidden problem? (not just with regard to the beard, but when for example people say "so and so doesn't pray, but he has a good heart"...he may be a nice person but there is one aspect in which his heart is defective).

How is keeping a short beard disobeying the command of the Prophet salallahu alaihi wa salim? The brother Rifai is trying to point out that there is fiqhi ikhtilaaf among the ulama as to what constitues having a shari beard. Some ulama said not to trim it at all and to leave it, other ulama said to leave grow without trimming it was makruh, some ulama said that the beard could be trimmed to a fist length, some said it should be trimmed to a fist length, some said the fist starts under the chin, some said the fist includes the chin, there are even various definitions as to what facial hair is considered the lihya, etc. This is not just a simple issue as everyone always tries to make everything in the deen, ulama have discussed this and various ulama should be consulted as to what their proofs are. Why not contact Shaikh Babikr rather than discuss him behind his back?

Also I really hope all the people criticizing the esteemed Shaikh's beard all have beards and full length ones at that, otherwise, they would be really shameless.

[hasasnn2345tv]

Abdulwahhab,

The ´ulama are the inheritors, but not only in the outer aspects, also the inner aspects; or is all that they inherited a beard and short pants? Rather, they should not be deficient in any Sunnah if they are true embodiments of their inheritance, this includes their inner states. And I assure you, every single ´alim or shaykh on earth fails to live up to the Nabawi standard. The Shuyukh are not only emulated in their beard and dress, but in their akhlaq and other aspects. When I mentioned "hidden" I did not mean those which Allah Ta´ala has concealed from people, rather their acting contrary to the Sunnah in things other than the outer aspects (beard, clothes etc), such as displaying poor akhlaq etc. This is something we sometimes see from big bearded shuyukh as well. Some of them manage to conceal it in front of the masses, while those who get to sit and associate with them get to see their shortcomings. Other shuyukh have this bad akhlaq in public, speak ill, slander, talk down to people etc, and people do not raise an eyebrow; and if you do you are often being told that you cannot speak against the ´ulama etc. This is hypocrisy at it's best which is found in most communities, Deobandis included. I know clean shaven scholars who have the greatest akhlaq; and I know those with big beards who lack basic adab; yet they are hailed as Sufi Masters by tens of thousands.

wassalam

But the issue is, keeping a beard is one of the easiest things that can be done to fulfill a sunnah whereas changing one's akhlaaq and other such internal matters are not so easy to remedy. None of us can be perfect models of good akhlaaq, that is true, but we should try to be perfect in areas where we can be, such as the beard. We can't justify leaving some sunnah because of the ills of others - the fact that bad akhlaaq and aadaab are being brought in as a counter-argument for justifying people who have difficulty fulfilling a relatively easy and effortless sunnah should already be a good indication that it should not be acceptable, just how bad akhlaaq isn't acceptable in a Sufi shaykh.

And you're right. A good shaykh won't waste his time talking down to people or demeaning them. But a great shaykh would also refrain from such things while having a sunnah beard (and not just the beard, but almost all the dhaahiri sunan, especially ones that are as easy to carry out as the beard, such as sitting down to drink water, entering the masjid with the right foot while sending salawat upon Rasoolullah and reciting the masnoon du'a, eating with three fingers [although this can be difficult for some as well]). The fact of the matter is, most people already get turned off by those people given the title of "shaykh" that use it as a platform to attack everyone under the sun and are generally ill-mannered (and this usually leads to stereotyping of ulama by laymen, especially of the modernist/progressive persuasion), but most ulama are not like that since it should be the goal of every Muslim to better his or her akhlaaq.

Also, I don't know of any Sufi master who has a beard but also bad akhlaaq. Tasawwuf is all about purifying the self and you cannot do that if you have bad akhlaaq, let alone be a master at guiding others.