[MauroDarudo]

Is there anything wrong with praying Isha at 15 degrees? From what I understand, 18 degrees is the preferable opinion, and I try to pray Isha at 18 degrees, but my local Masjid (which is Ghair Muqallid/Ikhwani) prays Isha pretty early in the summer, meaning it is often prayed before the time for 18 degrees comes in.

[infelconi]

Wa 'Alaykum Assalam,

If the two are follow able then, one should stick to one right?

[bestgenpower]

Assalamu alaykum

May be we must form a group and watch the sky at -15 degrees and -18 degrees altitude for a few days in summer. And present the details of the observations to the scholars in the subject and take their opinion.

The best results will be when the scholars join the observations.

We are currently doing Observations (Mashadah) on the outskirts of london with some ulama, also ulama from lancashire and batley have also done this.

http://www.wifaqululama.co.uk/18-deg...les-fatwa.html

[jobsfancy]

Is there anything wrong with praying Isha at 15 degrees? From what I understand, 18 degrees is the preferable opinion, and I try to pray Isha at 18 degrees, but my local Masjid (which is Ghair Muqallid/Ikhwani) prays Isha pretty early in the summer, meaning it is often prayed before the time for 18 degrees comes in.

It was recently determined that it is okay to pray Isha at 15° in North America (there was a conference held on the issue of Isha/Fajr times in Toronto). I think a mushahadah was done in Montreal to determine this.

The problems arise when some masajid go down to 12°, like my Deobandi masjid does during the summer time.

Fajr should be prayed after 18°. The Fajr issue is a bigger problem, especially when fasting - the 15° time comes later than the 18° time and many masajid erroneously - knowingly or unknowingly - use the 15° time for calculating Fajr.

[Battwenue]

A decade long research by Moonsighting.com found that any fixed degree is not correct for Subh-Sadiq or disappearance of Shafaq. The Subh-Sadiq and Shafaq are functions of latitude and seasons (day number of the solar year). All collected observations from different latitudes were plotted against day number of the year. With curve-fit technique, moonsighting.com came up with a function of latitude and seasons. In 2007 independent Muslim scientists in Pakistan also confirmed that degrees fluctuate with seasons.
For more infos see : http://www.moonsighting.com/

[allvideO]

Yes it is fine according the subcontinent scholars. Safer would be 18 degrees. This has been discussed on the forums in the past.

You should happy that they don't go below 15 degrees. Whole Europe including UK goes below the 15 degrees up until 11 degrees in the summer.

[bestgenpower]

A decade long research by Moonsighting.com found that any fixed degree is not correct for Subh-Sadiq or disappearance of Shafaq. The Subh-Sadiq and Shafaq are functions of latitude and seasons (day number of the solar year). All collected observations from different latitudes were plotted against day number of the year. With curve-fit technique, moonsighting.com came up with a function of latitude and seasons. In 2007 independent Muslim scientists in Pakistan also confirmed that degrees fluctuate with seasons.
For more infos see : http://www.moonsighting.com/

I forwarded this to 2 ulama from wifaqululama who kindly responded.

Mufti Sajid:
"Khalid Shoukat's research on salat times is full of misinformation and discrepancies. After numerous attempts to contact khalid shaukat to the errors on his website (moonsighting.com) he has failed to reply and respond, he has not replied to any of my questions put before him till this day"

Molana Farid:
"We have asked to see this decade long research on a number of occasions. The observations mentioned on the website are sporadic and unverified. The only observations that we have from Khalid's Shaukat's formula are Hizbul Ulama's. The timetable produced by Khalid Shaukat do not coincide with the observations done by Hizbul Ulama.

The observations are available on my website and can be compared to the Moonsighting.com times. You will find that they are quite different.

Our request to Khalid Shaukat are that he provides his decade long research and that the Ulama look at this thoroughly so that a fair and verified judgement is made.

Currently, it is not verified and suspect to say the least."

For the discrepancies of Moonsighting.com please click on this thread : (I will post this later on inshallah)

[Battwenue]

wow thanks for sharing these mufties' views, I thought the website was reliable especially since a moderator from this board uses it! Well, well...

[sarasaraseda]

...The observations are available on my website.....

here http://salahtimes.wikispaces.com/

[infelconi]

How are those that go below 15 degrees, justifying their stance?

[jobsfancy]

How are those that go below 15 degrees, justifying their stance?

They say that it is for ease and that it is hardship to keep it at 15°. I wish I was joking.

In Toronto, those masajid that change to 12° in the summer even bring in these "fatawa" from people who are not even of the same maslak. For example, Ahmed Kutty is used as a fatwa source to justify something like this (as well as the 15° Fajr when it has been empirically proven that Fajr time begins at the 18° mark at the latest) - even by Deobandis when he is neither Deobandi nor Hanafi and holds a few strange beliefs in fiqh.

[infelconi]

They say that it is for ease and that it is hardship to keep it at 15°. I wish I was joking.

In Toronto, those masajid that change to 12° in the summer even bring in these "fatawa" from people who are not even of the same maslak. For example, Ahmed Kutty is used as a fatwa source to justify something like this (as well as the 15° Fajr when it has been empirically proven that Fajr time begins at the 18° mark at the latest) - even by Deobandis when he is neither Deobandi nor Hanafi and holds a few strange beliefs in fiqh.

How can their Salah even be accepted then?

[jobsfancy]

How can their Salah even be accepted then?

You can find their evidence here: http://www.hilalcommittee.com/TOprayertimes.html

The thing is, you see flexibility and ease being their primary point. The idea put forward by them is if there is even a shadow of a doubt, we can err on the side of ease, rather than caution, which IMO throws the entire claim out the door. I thought we were supposed to leave doubtful matters and hence err on the side of caution? This point is certainly not addressed...

Furthermore, the calculations based upon 15° for Isha and 18° for Fajr have been empirically proven to be the safest. So, there are some Deobandi masajid that follow 15° for Isha and 18° for Fajr and there are those that don't.

[infelconi]

which masajid take the 12 degree view in Canada?

[jobsfancy]

which masajid take the 12 degree view in Canada?

http://ccmt.jucanada.org/uploads/ima...2011_00000.pdf

Go to page 2 to find the list of ulama, qurra, aimmah, and management from different masajid who support the 12° for Isha and 15° for Fajr. It isn't Canada-wide. This is just restricted to the Greater Toronto Area.

[infelconi]

http://ccmt.jucanada.org/uploads/ima...2011_00000.pdf

Go to page 2 to find the list of ulama, qurra, aimmah, and management from different masajid who support the 12° for Isha and 15° for Fajr. It isn't Canada-wide. This is just restricted to the Greater Toronto Area.

Why avoid Islamicfinder..?

This is really messed up.