[Michaelnewerb]

The brothers who have posted. Have you even read my original post? I am simply stating that Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) HAS KNOWLEDGE OF THE UNSEEN, with evidence from Quran and Hadith. Nowhere did I mention to what DEGREE the Prophet's knowledge is or how much. Only Allah and the Prophet know that. Stop trying to create arguments based on what type of knowledge or what knowledge the Prophet has. All we know and agree on is that he does have knowledge of the unseen, but the extent to which he has it cannot be argued. The point of this topic is to refute claims against people who deny that Prophet has knowledge of unseen, not to debate on what type of knowledge and the extent or degree of that knowledge. Only Allah knows best.

[SannyGlow]

No two muslims doubt that the knowledge of Rasulullah (SAW) was greater than any other creation.... But if everything is simply "everything" which doesn't leave anything then that's simply false, because it implies that his knowledge was unlimited, and not even Barelwis (atleast in their polemical works) do not believe in this. But if that "everything" is somehow restricted then that is established and this is what Deobandis and Salafis believe.
As for what are the exceptions with that "everything" and how that is restricted than that's a different issue.

If you mean that his knowledge was limited in the sense that it was created knowledge, ofcourse it is limited and only Allah's knowledge is unlimited as His Knowledge is not created or given or bound by time, etc. But if unlimited means that he was given all created knowledge, what is wrong with that?

[SannyGlow]

The brothers who have posted. Have you even read my original post? I am simply stating that Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) HAS KNOWLEDGE OF THE UNSEEN, with evidence from Quran and Hadith. Nowhere did I mention to what DEGREE the Prophet's knowledge is or how much. Only Allah and the Prophet know that. Stop trying to create arguments based on what type of knowledge or what knowledge the Prophet has. All we know and agree on is that he does have knowledge of the unseen, but the extent to which he has it cannot be argued. The point of this topic is to refute claims against people who deny that Prophet has knowledge of unseen, not to debate on what type of knowledge and the extent or degree of that knowledge. Only Allah knows best.

Yes, everyone must agree to this, and the ulama have discussed to details and there is valid ikhtilaaf on certain things, but everyone must accept he had knowledge of the unseen as Allah willed.

[NADALA]

Prophet(Saw) didn't possess Ilm ul Ghaib, BUT he was made aware of some issues regarding Ghaib. Now the point we shouldn't miss is that Prophet(Saw) didn't hide anything from his ummah, He taught them all which was revealed to him. If anyone denies this then he is accusing Prophet(Saw) for not doing his role properly.

So Prophet(Saw) delivered what all he was made aware of regarding matters of unseen, like what is going to happen in future etc. And he delivered those things to his "Companions", and from them we came to know about those. So now can anyone say that even, we are knowers of unseen? Since we know of certain things that are gonna happen in future?

People might argue that we came to know about those things from the Prophet(saw), but even Prophet(saw) came to know about those from wahi which Allah(swt) sent, which was brought by Jibreel(as).

ilm ul ghaib is to be defined as the knowledge which is acquired without any means. The one who has ilm ghaib should have that ilm on his own. It shouldn't be dependent. And only Allah possess such quality, No one else.

[BonjGopu]

If you mean that his knowledge was limited in the sense that it was created knowledge, ofcourse it is limited and only Allah's knowledge is unlimited as His Knowledge is not created or given or bound by time, etc. But if unlimited means that he was given all created knowledge, what is wrong with that?

The wrong with it is that some of the knowledge has been negated from the Prophet (SAW) in the Qur'an and elsewhere. ANd there is no such proof (as fas as I know) which states that the Prophet ('alaihissalatu wassalaa) had been given "created" knowledge and not the uncreated one. On the other hand, there are explicit proofs according to which the Prophet (SAW) had not been given created knowledge, including the hadith of al-Kawthar and the hadith of his Sahw in Salaah.

[DghtRdc]

The brothers who have posted. Have you even read my original post? I am simply stating that Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) HAS KNOWLEDGE OF THE UNSEEN, with evidence from Quran and Hadith. Nowhere did I mention to what DEGREE the Prophet's knowledge is or how much. Only Allah and the Prophet know that. Stop trying to create arguments based on what type of knowledge or what knowledge the Prophet has. All we know and agree on is that he does have knowledge of the unseen, but the extent to which he has it cannot be argued. The point of this topic is to refute claims against people who deny that Prophet has knowledge of unseen, not to debate on what type of knowledge and the extent or degree of that knowledge. Only Allah knows best.

if you were trying to convince and argue with people that rasulullah (pbuh) had knowledge of the unseen. you would first have to tell us who you were arguing with. who on earth says rasulullah did not posses some knowledge of the unseen?

deobandies? NO!

salafis? i highly doubt it!

the only controversy in this issue is regarding using the title "alim ul ghayb" to describe rasullah (pbuh), as many linguists and scholars state that using this term implies rasulullah (pbuh) has comprehensive/complete knowledge of the unseen.

quite frankly your stirring up the pot for nothing.

stop and think for a second is it wise to stir up trouble the way you are doing on this forum, in countless threads? not every muslim will see things the way you do, get over it!

sure i disagree with some people's practice3 of 8 rakat taraweeh, but does that mean i should follow your method and barge in their taraweeh and start yelling at them to do 20 instead?

[SannyGlow]

The wrong with it is that some of the knowledge has been negated from the Prophet (SAW) in the Qur'an and elsewhere. ANd there is no such proof (as fas as I know) which states that the Prophet ('alaihissalatu wassalaa) had been given "created" knowledge and not the uncreated one. On the other hand, there are explicit proofs according to which the Prophet (SAW) had not been given created knowledge, including the hadith of al-Kawthar and the hadith of his Sahw in Salaah.

Ofcourse he was given created knowledge brother, no creation could have an attribute that is uncreated. As for the ayat of Quran and other hadith that limit his knowledge one would have to consult the ulama as to when these ayats were revealed and when the statements in the hadith took place, as Rasulullah salallahu alaihi wa salim through his whole life was rising in rank. Also the hadith of Kawthar should be read with commentary and studied with ulama, as with all hadith.

[CializCialiscsqw]

So the hadith/qur'an contradicts each other/itself? I doubt it.
Subhanallah

I never said that and so far there is nothing worth replying to in this thread. Quran and Hadith make the matter obvious.

[Michaelnewerb]

if you were trying to convince and argue with people that rasulullah (pbuh) had knowledge of the unseen. you would first have to tell us who you were arguing with. who on earth says rasulullah did not posses some knowledge of the unseen?

deobandies? NO!

salafis? i highly doubt it!

the only controversy in this issue is regarding using the title "alim ul ghayb" to describe rasullah (pbuh), as many linguists and scholars state that using this term implies rasulullah (pbuh) has comprehensive/complete knowledge of the unseen.

quite frankly your stirring up the pot for nothing.

stop and think for a second is it wise to stir up trouble the way you are doing on this forum, in countless threads? not every muslim will see things the way you do, get over it!

sure i disagree with some people's practice3 of 8 rakat taraweeh, but does that mean i should follow your method and barge in their taraweeh and start yelling at them to do 20 instead?

Once again trying to claim that I'm stirring up hatred among the members of the forum. Look at all my thread. I provide evidence from Quran + Hadith + renowned scholars. Mainly from Quran and Hadith. And where am I barging in front of people's faces? all claims I have made have been simple to understand especially for someone new to Islam. I use references from Quran and Hadith. Are you saying your denying what I have to say? Okay, guess what? Your denying what Allah has told us and what is written in various Hadith.

The concept is not hard to understand, and believe me, there are people out there who believe Prophet pbuh, does not have knowledge of the unseen. It is not our right and order to guide Muslims? What was the purpose of the Prophet than? Are we not the followers of the Prophet? He was a role model to us, so we must follow him, and guide muslims like he did. Evidence from Quran and Hadith is not enough for you?

And in every thread arguments will arise between different sects. Thats the nature of our muslim Ummah today. People are constantly attacking a certain sect and accusing them of committing one thing, while they are being attacked by other sects and being accused of doing another thing.

[TerAlelmlor]

I'm not a master in aqidah or anything, but this is the first time I've seen a distinction made between created and uncreated knowledge in this way. Can someone shed more light on this? What is the difference between the two, besides the fact that, for example, my knowledge of the number 2 began to exist at some point, whereas Allah always had knowledge of the number 2?

[sniskelsowwef]

I never said that and so far there is nothing worth replying to in this thread. Quran and Hadith make the matter obvious.

they do don't they!, alhumdullilah.

[Finkevannon]

Mu‘adh ibn Jabal (Allah be well pleased with him) said:

One morning the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) was kept back from us, and he delayed the dawn prayer until we could almost see the sun, when he came out in a hurry and commenced the prayer. The Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him and give him peace) performed it quickly, and when he had closed with Salams, called out, “Stay as you are, in your rows.” He then turned to us and said, “I shall now tell you what kept me from you this morning. I rose last night, made ablution, prayed what had been destined for me to pray, but then became so drowsy in my prayer that lassitude overcame me. And lo, I was with my Lord, Blessed and Exalted, in a surpassingly beautiful form,[23] and He said, ‘O Muhammad,’ and I said, ‘Ever at Your service.’ He said, ‘What are the Supreme Assembly [of archangels] debating about?’ and I said, ‘I do not know.’ He asked this thrice. Then I saw Him place His hand between my shoulders until I felt the coolness of His fingertips between my breasts, and lo, everything was revealed to me, and I knew. He said, ‘O Muhammad, what are the Supreme Assembly debating about?’ I said, ‘About expiations.’ He said, ‘What are they?’ and I said, ‘The walking of one’s feet to good deeds, sitting in mosques after prayers, and making a thorough ablution when most unpleasant.’ He said, ‘And then?’ I said, ‘Feeding others, speaking affably, and praying the night when people sleep.’ He said, ‘Ask, saying: O Allah, I ask You that I may do good works, shun bad, and love the unfortunate; I ask that You may forgive me and show me mercy. And when You try a people, take my soul unafflicted. I ask Your love, the love of whoever loves You, and the love of works that bring one closer to Your love.’”

The Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him and give him peace) said. “It was the truth. Study and learn it” (Tirmidhi (c00), 5.368–69: 3235)

‘Umar ibn al-Khattab (Allah be well pleased with him) said,

The Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) stood before us and told us of [everything from] the very beginning of creation until the inhabitants of paradise have taken their places and the denizens of hell theirs—whoever memorized it memorized it; and whoever forgot it forgot it” (Bukhari (c00), 4.129: 3192).

Reported by Hudhayfa: “The Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) addressed us in a speech that omitted nothing until the Final Hour except that he mentioned it” (Bukhari (c00), 8.154: 6604)

Abu Zayd ‘Amr ibn Akhtab: “He informed us of all that was and all that would be, the most knowledgeable of us being whoever remembered best” (Muslim (c00), 4.2217: 2892)

Abu Sa‘id al-Khudri: “He stood up and spoke, leaving out nothing until the coming of the Final Hour save that he mentioned it” (Tirmidhi (c00), 4.483–84)

Brother, I think you probably got this from a Barelwi, or likeminded website.

It's quite ironic that the extreme sufis who accuse the Salafis of bypassing the understanding and verdict of the jumhoor fuqaha, and supplanting it with their own interpretation of the Qur'an and Hadith, are guilty of the very same tactic. Just like the Salafis, they will use Qur'an and Hadith to justify beliefs and actions that have been condemned by innumerable fuqaha.

When you examine what the vast majority of fuqaha have had to say with regards to the knowledge of the hour, building of graves, istagathah, and other issues, then you will understand why it is necessary for extreme groups to resort directly to the Qur'an and Hadith to force interpretations in support of anomalous positions.

As always you will find two extremes to every issue. One group will regard the Prophet (Allah bless him and grant him peace) as little more than a postman, whilst the other will grant him qualities that are exclusive to Allah. The first group has tendencies of attributing the qualities of creation to Allah, whilst the other has tendencies of attributing the qualities of Allah to the creation.

We can examine what the classical fuqaha understood with regards to the Prophet (Allah bless him and grant him peace) possessing the knowledge of the hour. Let's bring the position of the accepted authorities in this issue, and then it'll be clear what the anomalous, erroneous and rejected view is.

[CializCialiscsqw]

Mu‘adh ibn Jabal (Allah be well pleased with him) said:

One morning the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) was kept back from us, and he delayed the dawn prayer until we could almost see the sun, when he came out in a hurry and commenced the prayer. The Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him and give him peace) performed it quickly, and when he had closed with Salams, called out, “Stay as you are, in your rows.” He then turned to us and said, “I shall now tell you what kept me from you this morning. I rose last night, made ablution, prayed what had been destined for me to pray, but then became so drowsy in my prayer that lassitude overcame me. And lo, I was with my Lord, Blessed and Exalted, in a surpassingly beautiful form,[23] and He said, ‘O Muhammad,’ and I said, ‘Ever at Your service.’ He said, ‘What are the Supreme Assembly [of archangels] debating about?’ and I said, ‘I do not know.’ He asked this thrice. Then I saw Him place His hand between my shoulders until I felt the coolness of His fingertips between my breasts, and lo, everything was revealed to me, and I knew. He said, ‘O Muhammad, what are the Supreme Assembly debating about?’ I said, ‘About expiations.’ He said, ‘What are they?’ and I said, ‘The walking of one’s feet to good deeds, sitting in mosques after prayers, and making a thorough ablution when most unpleasant.’ He said, ‘And then?’ I said, ‘Feeding others, speaking affably, and praying the night when people sleep.’ He said, ‘Ask, saying: O Allah, I ask You that I may do good works, shun bad, and love the unfortunate; I ask that You may forgive me and show me mercy. And when You try a people, take my soul unafflicted. I ask Your love, the love of whoever loves You, and the love of works that bring one closer to Your love.’”

The Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him and give him peace) said. “It was the truth. Study and learn it” (Tirmidhi (c00), 5.368–69: 3235)

‘Umar ibn al-Khattab (Allah be well pleased with him) said,

The Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) stood before us and told us of [everything from] the very beginning of creation until the inhabitants of paradise have taken their places and the denizens of hell theirs—whoever memorized it memorized it; and whoever forgot it forgot it” (Bukhari (c00), 4.129: 3192).

Reported by Hudhayfa: “The Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) addressed us in a speech that omitted nothing until the Final Hour except that he mentioned it” (Bukhari (c00), 8.154: 6604)

Abu Zayd ‘Amr ibn Akhtab: “He informed us of all that was and all that would be, the most knowledgeable of us being whoever remembered best” (Muslim (c00), 4.2217: 2892)

Abu Sa‘id al-Khudri: “He stood up and spoke, leaving out nothing until the coming of the Final Hour save that he mentioned it” (Tirmidhi (c00), 4.483–84)

سلام

You realize that in the Arabic tongue and understanding, this doesn't actually mean "EVERYTHING", otherwise it would have taken him hundreds of years to tell them everything that happened in the past and in the future, and it wouldn't have served a purpose since those simple people would have easily forgot all of it and not understood 99% of it, this expression simply means that he told them everything that was necessary such as stories from previous prophets and future signs of the hour and so on...

Just like this Quranic verse:

And We have sent down to you the Book as clarification for all things and as guidance and mercy and good tidings for the Muslims. (16:89)

You know that I can ask about a thousand things that aren't mentioned or clarified in the Quran right? Do you know what this means then? it means that the Quran clarifies everything that is necessary for you to know to become a Muslim, it tells you there is Salat and Zakat and that Allah is one and so on... This is how they are understood by Arabs.

Otherwise as I showed you previously the Prophet (SAWS) didn't even know where the lost necklace of his wife was..

But people here are fighting over nothing, don't we all agree already that he (SAWS) knew some things from al-Ghaib that Allah revealed to him and did not know other things? Then what are you guys debating?

[jobsfancy]

But people here are fighting over nothing, don't we all agree already that he (SAWS) knew some things from al-Ghaib that Allah revealed to him and did not know other things? Then what are you guys debating?

The problem is, some people believe that he was given the knowledge of everything. Not just some things from the unseen, but everything. And if you don't believe that, then you're considered a ghustaakh-e-Rasool - someone who reviles and insults Rasoolullah .

[CializCialiscsqw]

The problem is, some people believe that he was given the knowledge of everything. Not just some things from the unseen, but everything. And if you don't believe that, then you're considered a ghustaakh-e-Rasool - someone who reviles and insults Rasoolullah .

How does this verse for example fall into their theory?

O Prophet, why do you prohibit [yourself from] what Allah has made lawful for you, seeking the approval of your wives? And Allah is Forgiving and Merciful. [66:1]

[rasiasertew]

The Prophet Muhammad (SAW) was a perfect man, Allah's greatest creation!< Allahs first creation and Allah's Last messenger!< out of the prophet's noor (saw) Allah made prophets, and out of it Allah made the heavens and Out of it Allah made jahannam, and out of it Allah made the universe and the earth.

Your ignorant mind is too feeble to know that the Ayah you quoted in the Qur'an , was meant to be a lesson for us!< everything the prophet did was a example of what we should do and what do!, Let me tell you this TripolySunni!, if you think Nabiyull Muhammad 3alayhi salatawusalam was nothing but a simple man, why does allah care about this man so much? Why did Allah say in the Qur'an " "Undoubtedly, Allah and His Angels send blessings on the Prophet (the Communicator of Unseen News), O you who believe ! Send upon him blessings and salute him fully well in abundance" (Surah al-Ahzab, Verse 56)."! Why is he Habibullah, aren't you and i just slaves of Allah!, but this man is special to Allah more then anything!, It is people like you who do nothing but love to find ways to denouce the Prophet!, but peace and blessings be upon him , the greatest man who set foot on this Dunya.

[jobsfancy]

The Prophet Muhammad (SAW) was a perfect man, Allah's greatest creation!< Allahs first creation and Allah's Last messenger!< out of the prophet's noor (saw) Allah made prophets, and out of it Allah made the heavens and Out of it Allah made jahannam, and out of it Allah made the universe and the earth.

Your ignorant mind is too feeble to know that the Ayah you quoted in the Qur'an , was meant to be a lesson for us!< everything the prophet did was a example of what we should do and what do!, Let me tell you this TripolySunni!, if you think Nabiyull Muhammad 3alayhi salatawusalam was nothing but a simple man, why does allah care about this man so much? Why did Allah say in the Qur'an " "Undoubtedly, Allah and His Angels send blessings on the Prophet (the Communicator of Unseen News), O you who believe ! Send upon him blessings and salute him fully well in abundance" (Surah al-Ahzab, Verse 56)."! Why is he Habibullah, aren't you and i just slaves of Allah!, but this man is special to Allah more then anything!, It is people like you who do nothing but love to find ways to denouce the Prophet!, but peace and blessings be upon him , the greatest man who set foot on this Dunya.

A few issues with what you've just said:

There is zero evidence to suggest that Rasoolullah was the first creation. There is zero evidence to suggest that all the prophets are from his "noor" or that the heavens and the earth were made from him. This is extreme exaggeration, which Rasoolullah warned us against. We're raising him to levels higher than what the Christians raise 'Isa to. In fact, water was the first creation and has been the most proven.

Also, you should read the Qur'an more often because even Rasoolullah called himself a man like us - as in a physical man. That means that he was a man, not bashr. He was, though, the best of men and the best of all creation. There is no doubt about that and if anyone does doubt this, they should fear for their imaan.

Furthermore, you're doing a heckuva job of following the example of Rasoolullah by saying that brother TripolySunni's mind is "too feeble" and that it is "ignorant".

[BonjGopu]

[QUOTE=naqshbandiosmanli;741105]Ofcourse he was given created knowledge brother, no creation could have an attribute that is uncreated.[QUOTE/]
So does that mean that he (pbuh) had been given all the created knowledge in the light of the evidences you quoted. As far as I know even Ahmad Raza Khan restricted (atleast in some books, if not all) his "complete Ilm Ghaib" till the Judgement Day, after that he didn't claimed that he (saw) had "complete knowledge" of it. And I believe the created knowledge is much more vast than that.

As for the ayat of Quran and other hadith that limit his knowledge one would have to consult the ulama as to when these ayats were revealed and when the statements in the hadith took place, as Rasulullah salallahu alaihi wa salim through his whole life was rising in rank. Also the hadith of Kawthar should be read with commentary and studied with ulama, as with all hadith Well why not you quote some scholars for us. For now I believe the hadeeth of Hawdh is one of the strongest proof against the theory that Prophet had complete "Ilm Ghaib" only after the complete revelation of Qur'an. This is the simple way to through away all the verses denying Ilm Ghaib to Prophet (SAW).

[TerAlelmlor]

I'm not a master in aqidah or anything, but this is the first time I've seen a distinction made between created and uncreated knowledge in this way. Can someone shed more light on this? What is the difference between the two, besides the fact that, for example, my knowledge of the number 2 began to exist at some point, whereas Allah always had knowledge of the number 2?

No one has any info on this?

[CindyLavender]

No one has any info on this?

Just like milk, deoband.org does a body good.


http://www.deoband.org/2011/12/aqida...of-the-unseen/


It's very thorough...