[Edwardthe_third]

In the narration below, the students of Shaykh are pretending they don’t know the correct narration of the chain out of respect for their teacher. Below which category of permissible lies does this type of good lie fall? There’s also the story of Hassan and Hussain teaching the old man how to make wudhu.

Thanks a lot Barak Allah ta’aala

I have found the narration. I would still like to locate it in the Arabic text however. It goes as follows: "Imam Nawawi in his book al-Tarkhis fi al-ikram bi al-qiyam li dhawi al-fadl wa al-maziyya min ahl al-Islam (p. 84) said:
The hadith master Abu al-Baqa' told us: Hafiz Abu Muhammad informed us: Abu Tahir al-Silafi informed us: Abu `Ali al-Burdani said: I heard Hannad ibn Ibrahim al-Nasafi saying: I heard Abu Ishaq Ibrahim ibn Muhammad al-Qattan saying: I heard Abu `Abd Allah `Umar ibn Ahmad Ibn Ishaq al-`Attar saying: I heard Abu `Abd Allah Muhammad ibn Muslim ibn Warah al-Razi saying: I and Abu Hatim Muhammad ibn Idris al-Razi were present with Abu Zur`a al-Razi at the time of his death, so I said to Abu Hatim: "Come, let us remind him to say the shahada." Abu Hatim said, "I would be ashamed before Abu Zur`a to remind him of the shahada; but come, let us recall the hadith, perhaps when he hears it he will say it." I started and said:
Muhammad ibn Bashshar told us:
Abu `Asim al-Nabil told us:
from `Abd al-Hamid ibn Ja`far -
then I got confused about the hadith as if I never heard it or read it.
So Abu Hatim started and said:
Muhammad ibn Bashshar told us:
Abu `Asim al-Nabil told us:
from `Abd al-Hamid ibn Ja`far -
then he too got confused as if he never read it or heard it before.
Then Abu Zur`a, may Allah be pleased with him, spoke and said:
Muhammad ibn Bashshar told us:
Abu `Asim al-Nabil told us:
`Abd al-Hamid ibn Ja`far told us:
from Salih ibn Abi `Urayb:
from Kathir ibn Murrah:
from Mu`adh ibn Jabal, may Allah be pleased with him, he said:
the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and give him peace, said: "Whoever speaks as his last words: la ilaha illallah" - then Abu Zur`a's spirit came out with the letter ha' (the last letter of the word Allah) before he could say "he will enter Paradise." That was in the year 262."

[Edwardthe_third]

I may be wrong but I believe it’s permissible for a husband to pretend to love his wife’s cooking. In the same way is it permissible to pretend to love your host’s cooking and gifts? Barak Allah ta’aala

[elalmhicabalp]

ASWW
I once pretended that my aunts cooking was gooooooood!. Imagine what happened next??

[Edwardthe_third]

Here as the hadith on when lying is permitted:
Asmaa’ bint Yazeed, , who said: “The Messenger of Allaah said: “Lying is not permissible except for three reasons: lying to one’s wife to please her (for the purpose of arousing love and compassion and prevent disputes), lying during war and lying when reconciling between disputing people.”[At-Tirmithi-Albaani: Sound]. (http://www.islamweb.net/emainpage/in...cles&id=157647)

But then there’s also this more comprehensive hadith:
The sum and substance of this discussion has been derived from the narration ascribed to Umm Kulthoom who said, “The Messenger of Allaah said: “A liar is not the one who tries to bring about reconciliation between the people and speaks good to avert dispute or to convey good.”[Al-Bukhaari and Muslim]. (http://www.islamweb.net/emainpage/in...cles&id=157647)

I think this one explains Hassan RA and Hussain’s RA ‘acting’. Wallahu a’alam.
Barak Allah ta’aala

[Jffxljtw]

ASWW
I once pretended that my aunts cooking was gooooooood!. Imagine what happened next??

what happened next ?

[Scukonah]

what happened next ?

His aunt found a connoisseur at last, so she fed him more.

(Am I correct, bro qibla?)

[ptolerezort]

I don't have Imam al-Nawawi's book al-Tarkhis but i did find this narrative in his entry, أبو زرعة الرازي here:

http://www.islamweb.net/newlibrary/s....php?ids=12013

أخبرنا ابن الخلال أخبرنا الهمداني ، أخبرنا السلفي ، أخبرنا ابن مالك ، أخبرنا أبو يعلى ، الحافظ ، سمعت محمد بن علي الفرضي ، سمعت القاسم بن محمد بن ميمون ، سمعت عمر بن محمد بن إسحاق الحافظ ، سمعت ابن وارة يقول : حضرت أنا وأبو حاتم عند وفاة أبي زرعة ، فقلنا : كيف تلقن مثل أبي زرعة ؟ فقلت : حدثنا أبو عاصم ، حدثنا عبد الحميد بن جعفر . وقال أبو حاتم : حدثنا بندار في آخرين ، حدثنا أبو عاصم ، حدثنا عبد الحميد ، ففتح عينيه ، وقال : حدثنا بندار ، حدثنا أبو عاصم ، أخبرنا عبد الحميد ، حدثنا صالح بن أبي عريب ، عن كثير بن مرة ، عن معاذ ، قال : قال رسول الله -صلى الله عليه وسلم- : من كان آخر كلامه : لا إله إلا الله وخرج روحه معه

It doesn't say Abu Abdillah Bin Warah nor Abu Hatim 'lying' or mentioning that they 'forget'.

Regardless even if the narration you have is also what is related then it still doesn't mean they were pretending,

....then I got confused about the hadith as if I never heard it or read it..... This is just a parable, he admits he got confused regarding the narration, thats it. I don't know how that amounts to pretending. Also realise that at the beginning they didn't want to do Talqin so if they did hesitate (out of respect) that is the place they hesitated otherwise once they went to say the narration in front of Abu Zur'ah they got simply confused, by Allah's leave of course.

Maybe the brothers who have the full arabic narrative to this can give a better insight.

Wallahu A'lam.

[Edwardthe_third]

I don't have Imam al-Nawawi's book al-Tarkhis but i did find this narrative in his entry, أبو زرعة الرازي here:

http://www.islamweb.net/newlibrary/s....php?ids=12013

أخبرنا ابن الخلال أخبرنا الهمداني ، أخبرنا السلفي ، أخبرنا ابن مالك ، أخبرنا أبو يعلى ، الحافظ ، سمعت محمد بن علي الفرضي ، سمعت القاسم بن محمد بن ميمون ، سمعت عمر بن محمد بن إسحاق الحافظ ، سمعت ابن وارة يقول : حضرت أنا وأبو حاتم عند وفاة أبي زرعة ، فقلنا : كيف تلقن مثل أبي زرعة ؟ فقلت : حدثنا أبو عاصم ، حدثنا عبد الحميد بن جعفر . وقال أبو حاتم : حدثنا بندار في آخرين ، حدثنا أبو عاصم ، حدثنا عبد الحميد ، ففتح عينيه ، وقال : حدثنا بندار ، حدثنا أبو عاصم ، أخبرنا عبد الحميد ، حدثنا صالح بن أبي عريب ، عن كثير بن مرة ، عن معاذ ، قال : قال رسول الله -صلى الله عليه وسلم- : من كان آخر كلامه : لا إله إلا الله وخرج روحه معه

It doesn't say Abu Abdillah Bin Warah nor Abu Hatim 'lying' or mentioning that they 'forget'.

Regardless even if the narration you have is also what is related then it still doesn't mean they were pretending,



This is just a parable, he admits he got confused regarding the narration, thats it. I don't know how that amounts to pretending. Also realise that at the beginning they didn't want to do Talqin so if they did hesitate (out of respect) that is the place they hesitated otherwise once they went to say the narration in front of Abu Zur'ah they got simply confused, by Allah's leave of course.

Maybe the brothers who have the full arabic narrative to this can give a better insight.

Wallahu A'lam.

and thank you for your reply.

You're right, it could very well be that they were genuinely confused by Allah’s SWT leave.

But, it’s hard to believe this was the case as narrating the hadith in order to remind their shaykh of the kalimah would be just as disrespectful if not more so. I think they purposely confused the chain of narration to get their shaykh to correct them and say the shahadah in the process. This is what these Sfers have understood as well. http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/show...te-the-Kalimah

Now, what about Hassan RA and Husain RA? They knew full well how to make wudhu when they requested the old man judge which one of them was incorrectly making wudhu. The plan was to make the old man indirectly realize his mistakes by seeing them both perform wudhu properly and it worked. So they did lie but only out consideration for the old man's honor. So perhaps 'lies' of this nature are actually good..wallahu a'lam.

EDIT - I really apologize. I don’t know if they would all agree with my point here. The OP in the thread said the students narrated 2 different chains. Even so though, I think it still could be considered ‘acting’ since what they did was planned and for the purpose of getting their Shaykh to intervene. Wallahu a’lam.

[Forexampleee]

If you have two wives you can white lie a little

[ptolerezort]

and thank you for your reply.

You're right, it could very well be that they were genuinely confused by Allah’s SWT leave.

But, it’s hard to believe this was the case as narrating the hadith in order to remind their shaykh of the kalimah would be just as disrespectful if not more so. I think they purposely confused the chain of narration to get their shaykh to correct them and say the shahadah in the process. This is what these Sfers have understood as well. http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/show...te-the-Kalimah

Now, what about Hassan RA and Husain RA? They knew full well how to make wudhu when they requested the old man judge which one of them was incorrectly making wudhu. The plan was to make the old man indirectly realize his mistakes by seeing them both perform wudhu properly and it worked. So they did lie but only out consideration for the old man's honor. So perhaps 'lies' of this nature are actually good..wallahu a'lam.

EDIT - I really apologize. I don’t know if they would all agree with my point here. The OP in the thread said the students narrated 2 different chains. Even so though, I think it still could be considered ‘acting’ since what they did was planned and for the purpose of getting their Shaykh to intervene. Wallahu a’lam.

It is not disrespect to do Talqin in front the dying (whether it is their Shaykh / Mother / Father / Brother etc), in fact it is a Sunnah, Rasulullah said:

لَقِّنُوا مَوْتَاكُمْ لا إِلَهَ إِلا اللَّهُ رواه مسلم 916

Anyway it would be speculating, so i wouldn't want to get in to that, Wallahu A'lam i'l leave it at that.