[Mr_White]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKTvI...eature=related


He is Javed Ahmad Ghamidi. He is a learned Islamic scholar from Pakistan but now living in Malaysia. His interpretation is different than mainstream Islam practiced in Pakistan and hence he had to flee because Pakis are just too dumb to tolerate other views. Anyways , coming to the point ....Is parda (covering) of hairs compulsory in Islam? Javed Ahmed Ghamidi says that there is no such command in Islamic Shari'a. There are four aspects of parda of Muslim women

1- Have 'Hayah' in their eyes (that is ..don't search for and look at opposite sex with lust)
2- Should wear decent/clean dress and remain dignified/presentable.
3-Women should cover their chest too. They should wear loose clothings so that their chest does not become "prominent"
4-Women should not show-off their beauty and fashion to others.


So what you guys say? Many people in Pakistan don't respect him and say that he rejects hadith...He NEVER said that he reject hadiths...I kinda like this guy....

So where in Islam it is explicitly stated that women has to cover their hairs all the time?

A rational/dignified discussion will be appreciated...no abuse.

Thanks

[pavilionnotebook]

His interpretation is different than mainstream Islam practiced in Pakistan and hence he had to flee because Pakis are just too dumb to tolerate other views.

[Shark&Nike]

These sort of newfangled interpretations of the Shari'ah only gained currency after colonialist subjugation of Muslims. Is this heretic able to quote even one scholar from the first thousand years of Islam who held the hijab to be non-compulsory? No! All the 'ulama of the past were wrong and this heretic is right? No! God says about people like Ghamidi in suratu Nisa:

"But no, by your Lord, they can have no Faith, until they make you (O Muhammad) judge in all disputes between them, and find in themselves no resistance against your decisions, and accept (them) with full submission."

[hoconnor6605]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKTvI...eature=related


Pakis are just too dumb to tolerate other views.


Anyways , coming to the point ....A rational/dignified discussion will be appreciated...no abuse.

Thanks

I find that comment rather abusive and offensive about pakistaNIS.

[bitymnmictada]

I wonder whose payroll this joker is on.

[Bvghbopz]

I would very much like you to remember the words of Sayyidina Ma’az bin Jabal (Radiallahu anhu), what a
wonderful principle he explained as he addressed one of his students:

“I warn you against the error of the wise one. For sometimes the Shaitaan Utters through
the tongue of the wise one a word of error and the hypocrite sometimes speaks a word of
truth.”

The student asked: “May Allah have mercy on you sire, if such is the case, how will I
know when a wise one occasionally speaks a word of error and a hypocrite a word of
truth? How will I know what is false and what is truth?” Ma‘az (Radiallahu anhu) said:
“Be careful of such statements about which is being said: “What kind of statement is
this? How can he have said this. “Do not allow such words to turn you away from the
wise man. It is quite possible that he may have recanted or retracted from the statement.
Then you may find the truth when you hear it. For the truth has light in it.”

Now let us ponder over the important points mentioned by Sayyidina Ma’az (Radiallahu
anhu):

a. In the first place he tells us that not everyone speaking a word of truth is
necessarily a wise man. A hypocrite also does that. This shows that just because
one had heard a word of truth from anyone, one should not become an ardent
follower of his. We people have a habit of becoming ardent fans of such people
after sometimes merely having heard one speech by him or after having merely
read one single article by him. Then on the basis of that single speech or article
we tend to praise him to high heaven. And worse than that: Sometimes we are
aware of the fact that a certain person is irreligious and acting in a sinful manner.
Yet, because he utters such words which are in agreement with our desires, we try
to prove him to be a deeply religious personality of saintly nature -so much so that
(May Allah forbid) we bring him even near to prophethood. If occasion comes
along when he says something in disagreement with our wishes, we bury him
down below. The result is that about the very same person we will one day shout:
“Zindabad! Brave! Long may he live!” And the next day we will shout:
“Murdabad! May you die! Death to you!” Is this not similar to the case of
“waking up as a believer and going to bed at night as an unbeliever” as is
mentioned in a Hadith?

b. Secondly Sayyidina Ma’az (Radiallahu anhu) says that it is possible that a wise
man may sometimes utter a word which may be an error and lead astray. Hence
after merely having heard a person one or two times, one should not become an
ardent adherent. What is needed is that the actual facts and circumstances should
first be ascertained, pondered over and considered. If, in the majority of affairs he
is found to be a follower of the Shariat and a sincere follower of the Sunnat, then
undoubtedly he may be accepted as a guide.

Then, if after full investigation, some derogatory thing or unacceptable statement is
attributed to him, it should not be accepted. In such a case do not become separated
from him. It is quite possible that (having held that view) he may retract and recant.
Otherwise you will be cut off from him for always.

This, in short, is what Sayyidina Ma’az (Radiallahu anhu) said. There is much scope for
meditation in his statement. Now let us look at our present situation and judge. What do
we generally do? We have some thought in our minds, which may be quite insignificant
and of minor detail. When we hear anyone speaking and uttering something which agrees
with our preconceived idea, we start to heap praises on the speaker, offer our complete
support and assistance and are even prepared to consider any serious acts of his which are
against the Shariat to be insignificant. This is indeed injustice. It should have been such
that his good points be praised and that his evil deeds be condemned. Or at the very least,
silence should be expressed at his evil. But here even his evil is being considered to be of
minor importance and even justified! At times it goes so far that those rules of Shariat
which he transgresses are being looked upon as being nonsensical and absurd! That is not
all. We find that even regarding Salaah, which is one of the major pillars of our deen and
which has, in numerous Ahaadeeth been mentioned to be the distinction between faith
and disbelief, such words are being said and written, that to repeat them here fills me with
revulsion and anguish. Just because our hero does not perform Salaah, Salaah becomes
jeered and scoffed at, and a mockery is made of it.

Taken from Islamic Politics by Shaykhul Hadith

[Thomaswhitee]

What do you have against women covering their hair?

Look at Turkey, women were fighting rights to be able to wear hijab. Today now around 70%+ wear it, despite the negativity and social pressure some Turks hold against .

[Mr_White]

I find that comment rather abusive and offensive about pakistaNIS.

mmm There's nothing offensive about it. Pakistanis , most of the times , are bunch of idiots who NEVER read Qur'an but just recite it without even knowing (like cattle? huh). They are superficial and believe in Islam as a "superstition" ...they never really understand it or bother to study it. (OFFCOURSE there are many,many very highly learned scholars of Islam that are Pakistanis but I am referring to the general population of Pakistan..If you are from Pakistan , you would AGREE with me..isn't it? (sorry for the use of word idiot because I didn't find any other appropriate word to express what I actually feel) ...

[Mr_White]

What do you have against women covering their hair?

Look at Turkey, women were fighting rights to be able to wear hijab. Today now around 70%+ wear it, despite the negativity and social pressure some Turks hold against .

I have nothing against Hijab. I LIKE the Hijab (specially Iranian/Turkish/Lebanon girls etc) .... but my question was purely from other point of view...Ghamidi IS a learned man..He has read and studied Islam is great detail. If he says something , there ought to be some reason..So again ...kindly , provide me with "explicit" reference from Islamic Shar'a which says that women should cover their hairs and face? If thats the case then the girls living in the West who wear pents (decent) but don't cover their hairs (but wear decent/complete clothes) are sinful? ...OR ..probably Ghamidi is right and Western Muslim girls do not draw anger of Allah (SWT) just because of their dressing (afterall , they can't wear shalwar/kameez or hijab all the time because they were born in Western culture/environment) .... I have no problem with girls wearing hijab...but to say that this girl is not 'ba parda' because she is wearing T-shirt and pents and not covering her hairs is rude..isn't it?

I wonder whose payroll this joker is on.

lol who is joker? Me or Ghamidi?

[hitaEtela]

mmm There's nothing offensive about it. Pakistanis , most of the times , are bunch of idiots who NEVER read Qur'an but just recite it without even knowing (like cattle? huh). They are superficial and believe in Islam as a "superstition" ...they never really understand it or bother to study it. (OFFCOURSE there are many,many very highly learned scholars of Islam that are Pakistanis but I am referring to the general population of Pakistan..If you are from Pakistan , you would AGREE with me..isn't it? (sorry for the use of word idiot because I didn't find any other appropriate word to express what I actually feel) ...

Sorry, but the word you're using to describe Pakistanis is most apt for you.

The Qur'an states that women have to cover themselves up. Have YOU even read the Qur'an or do you just like to parrot views from heretics who make up vitriol against Islam because you don't like Islam?
يَا أَيُّهَا النَّبِيُّ قُل لِّأَزْوَاجِكَ وَبَنَاتِكَ وَنِسَاء الْمُؤْمِنِينَ يُدْنِينَ عَلَيْهِنَّ مِن جَلَابِيبِهِنَّ

I have nothing against Hijab. I LIKE the Hijab (specially Iranian/Turkish/Lebanon girls etc) .... but my question was purely from other point of view...Ghamidi IS a learned man..He has read and studied Islam is great detail. If he says something , there ought to be some reason..So again ...kindly , provide me with "explicit" reference from Islamic Shar'a which says that women should cover their hairs and face? If thats the case then the girls living in the West who wear pents (decent) but don't cover their hairs (but wear decent/complete clothes) are sinful? ...OR ..probably Ghamidi is right and Western Muslim girls do not draw anger of Allah (SWT) just because of their dressing (afterall , they can't wear shalwar/kameez or hijab all the time because they were born in Western culture/environment) .... I have no problem with girls wearing hijab...but to say that this girl is not 'ba parda' because she is wearing T-shirt and pents and not covering her hairs is rude..isn't it? Here's another hint for you. The Arab women before Islam did not wear hijab, did not cover their hair, did not cover their face, did not necessarily wear loose clothing. After Islam, why did all these women start covering their hair and their faces? I guess they all simultaneously became "idiots"!

[Thomaswhitee]

I have nothing against Hijab. I LIKE the Hijab (specially Iranian/Turkish/Lebanon girls etc) .... but my question was purely from other point of view...Ghamidi IS a learned man..He has read and studied Islam is great detail. If he says something , there ought to be some reason..So again ...kindly , provide me with "explicit" reference from Islamic Shar'a which says that women should cover their hairs and face? If thats the case then the girls living in the West who wear pents (decent) but don't cover their hairs (but wear decent/complete clothes) are sinful? ...OR ..probably Ghamidi is right and Western Muslim girls do not draw anger of Allah (SWT) just because of their dressing (afterall , they can't wear shalwar/kameez or hijab all the time because they were born in Western culture/environment) .... I have no problem with girls wearing hijab...but to say that this girl is not 'ba parda' because she is wearing T-shirt and pents and not covering her hairs is rude..isn't it?



lol who is joker? Me or Ghamidi?

If you're honestly sincere about this, then read all this, you'll change your mind - http://www.sultan.org/books/hijab.pdf

[KLhdfskja]

Isn't it in the Qur'an itself, for women to cover hair? I forget which surah though. But it was definitely there.

[Jasonstawnosaa]

'Uqbah bin 'Amir (ra) had a sister who took a vow to go to Hajj barefooted and without covering her face, so when they asked the Prophet (SAWS) he said:
مروها فالتختمر ولتركب ولتصم ثلاثة أيام "Order her to cover her face and ride (to Hajj) and to fast three days (as punishment for making the vow).

[Glamyclitlemi]

mmm There's nothing offensive about it. Pakistanis , most of the times , are bunch of idiots who NEVER read Qur'an but just recite it without even knowing (like cattle? huh). They are superficial and believe in Islam as a "superstition" ...they never really understand it or bother to study it. (OFFCOURSE there are many,many very highly learned scholars of Islam that are Pakistanis but I am referring to the general population of Pakistan..If you are from Pakistan , you would AGREE with me..isn't it? (sorry for the use of word idiot because I didn't find any other appropriate word to express what I actually feel) ...

What a condescending attitude, I must say that you do not know that even if one just recites Quran Kareem without understanding it, one will get a lot of good deeds just by reciting. However, I agree that we must all learn Arabic and understand the meaning of Quran Kareem from an authentic Tafseer.

How do you know that this guy Ghamidi, I heard him for the first time a few days ago, is he a scholar? I heard some of his stuff on YouTube, looks like a totally ignorant fellow and seems to be pulling things from the hat, to me he appears to be a tool. Allahu Allam!

[Mr_White]

Sorry, but the word you're using to describe Pakistanis is most apt for you.

The Qur'an states that women have to cover themselves up. Have YOU even read the Qur'an or do you just like to parrot views from heretics who make up vitriol against Islam because you don't like Islam?
يَا أَيُّهَا النَّبِيُّ قُل لِّأَزْوَاجِكَ وَبَنَاتِكَ وَنِسَاء الْمُؤْمِنِينَ يُدْنِينَ عَلَيْهِنَّ مِن جَلَابِيبِهِنَّ



Here's another hint for you. The Arab women before Islam did not wear hijab, did not cover their hair, did not cover their face, did not necessarily wear loose clothing. After Islam, why did all these women start covering their hair and their faces? I guess they all simultaneously became "idiots"!

If I am not wrong , the verse you quoted is from Surah Al-Ahzab...right? mmmmm I assume that you have actually read the Qur'an ( with translation offcourse) and in that case , I'll dare to ask you....do you know the context of this verse , right? Was this verse a 'general' command for Muslim girls for coming centuries OR was it a SPECIFIC command because of the behavior of kufaars during those times? Anyways , I am not here to argue anything ...I just wanted to prompt a discussion regarding this video and Ghamidi's views...

Here's another hint for you. The Arab women before Islam did not wear hijab, did not cover their hair, did not cover their face, did not necessarily wear loose clothing. After Islam, why did all these women start covering their hair and their faces? I guess they all simultaneously became "idiots"! This is a complete mis-interpretation of my words from your side. I N E V E R stated that wearing Hijab makes one "idiot" ..then why you are trying to imply as such?

[GetsTan]

Was this verse a 'general' command for Muslim girls for coming centuries OR was it a SPECIFIC command because of the behavior of kufaars during those times? Has the behaviour of the kuffar become all flowery towards Muslims from that time? No. It has become worse.

However, that's not even a point to make. The commands in the Qur'aan are for all times, not for specific times.

Your comments about Pakistanis is offensive and against the forum rules. And reading Qur'aan like a cattle is better than interpreting it to one own whims.

[Mr_White]

Isn't it in the Qur'an itself, for women to cover hair? I forget which surah though. But it was definitely there.

It's not. Surah Al Ahzab was revealed in a SPECIFIC context ...Yeah Surah Al noor has verses dealing with 'general commands' for Muslim girls and covering of face/hearing isn't there. Don't believe me? Check it by yourself...

http://quran.com/24

Read verse 31 to be precise .....

Also what about my this point then ....

"If thats the case then the girls living in the West who wear pents (decent) but don't cover their hairs (but wear decent/complete clothes) are sinful?" Do you expect them to wear Shalwar kameez and hijabs/niqabs in the West?

[Mr_White]

Has the behaviour of the kuffar become all flowery towards Muslims from that time? No. It has become worse.

However, that's not even a point to make. The commands in the Qur'aan are for all times, not for specific times.

Your comments about Pakistanis is offensive and against the forum rules. And reading Qur'aan like a cattle is better than interpreting it to one own whims.

I apologize about my comments regarding Pakistan. Sorry. But still Pakistanis need to IMPROVE their understanding of Qur'an as a nation. We should get KNOWLEDGE from Qur'an , not just read it to get just 'sawaab' . . . .

Also , YES the behavior of Kuffar is no where the same as it was back then now. Al Ahzab's verse was revealed because Kuffar used to 'target' Muslim women and Prohet's (SAW) wives ... They used to hurl different slogans on them etc and when Muslims used to quarrel with them..they used to say "Well , we didn't know they were you women , hah!" ..due to THAT situation , Allah revealed verses where Prophet's wives were given STRICT command to not to even go out of their house and Muslim women were told to cover themselves so that Kufar can recognize them (taking away their excuse of "We didn't know" ..) ..The every context of Surah Al Ahzab makes in absolutely clear that these commands are for a specific situation and due to certain sensitivities God had to reveal these verses ( Prophet's wives were made to take more strict measures ) etc .... So clearly , these verses aren't 'general' commands for Muslim girls ... These commands are in Surah Al-Noor. In today's world , Muslim girls aren't targeted just because of their religion (exceptions are there but this is not a general trend in the West) .... Again , I am NOT against Hijab...I want Iranians , Lebanese , Turkish , Pakistani , Malaysians etc etc to keep wearing hijabs....but my main point is that if any girl doesn't take hijab....she is NOT "sinful" and Allah (SWT) will NOT 'punish' her only because of this .... Agree or not?

[GetsTan]

Also what about my this point then ....

"If thats the case then the girls living in the West who wear pents (decent) but don't cover their hairs (but wear decent/complete clothes) are sinful?" ^ Yes they are sinful because a hadeeth clearly states that a girl past puberty must cover all save her face, hands and feet.

People commit many sins, it isn't so shocking if they are commiting another.

[Mr_White]

^ Yes they are sinful because a hadeeth clearly states that a girl past puberty must cover all save her face, hands and feet.

People commit many sins, it isn't so shocking if they are commiting another.

I will like to see that Hadith.Is it explicit?

Also , so you accept that Qur'an does NOT say girls/women to cover their face/head all the time ...right? Surah Al Ahzab was for spefic situation as I explained it in my post #18.

Also , according to you ...what if a girl wears pents but take hijab too? Is she still sinful? or not? (though I do not believe that even a non-Hijabi girl is a sinner..I just want your opinion on this)....