[pKgGpUlF]

Mr Mujib you should have written "Shi'ite" under your madhhab so that muslims can ignore your replies.

[CULTDIAMONDS]

I think we agree on rejecting the views of Abdullah Ibn Mas'ood ra on Al-Mu`awwidhatain on the basis of Ijmaa' opposing it. Don't we?

Follow the link, it leads to treasures....

Assalam o alaykum,

Allamah Sarfraz Khan Safdar mentions in Khazain al-Sunan, vol.1 p.99, that the claim that Sayyidina ibn Masu'd [Allah bless him and give him peace] didn’t consider Muawidhatayn to be part of the Quran is an outright lie.

قال ابن حزم فى المحلى كل ما روى عن ابن مسعود من ان المعوذتين
وام القرآن لم يكونا فى مصحفه
فكذب موضوع لا يصح وقال النووى فى المهذب
والسيوطى فى الاتقان وما نقل عن ابن مسعود باطل ليس بصحيح

"Ibn Hazm said in his al-Muhalli [vol.1 p.13], "All that is narrated from Ibn Masu'd saying that the Muawidhatayn and the Umm al-Kitab (al-Fatihah) were not in his mushaf is a fabricated lie and not authentic". And al-Nawawi said in al-Muhadhab and al-Suyuti in al-Itqan [vol.1 p.79], "That which is narrated from Ibn Masu'd is false and not authentic."

Mufti Muhammad Saeed Khan has mentioned in his lectures that there are authentic proofs which show that Ibn Masu'd considered Muawidhatayn to be part of the Quran. How could he not? To deny one letter of the Quran is kufr, let alone two whole surahs of the Quran. Mufti Zar Wali Khan mentioned that it was proven that he recited the Muawidhatayn in prayer.

http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/show...idhatayn/page3

[tearidrusydet]

I think if you actually believe that Abdullah ibn Mas`ud didn't know that those surahs were part of the Quran then you have no real reason to believe in any Hadith, or anything else for that matter, transmitted by him, as even the most ignorant Muslim today knows this.

The details of the issue here are irrelevant. The only relevance is of the Ijmaa opposing the view of Ibn Masood ra on the mentioned issue. Kindly read the classical scholars about this issue.
Hafiz Bazzar after relating these traditions of Ibn Mas’ud in his Musnad, has written that he is solitary and isolated in his this opinion; no one from among the Companions has supported this view.

[byncnombmub]

The details of the issue here are irrelevant. The only relevance is of the Ijmaa opposing the view of Ibn Masood ra on the mentioned issue. Kindly read the classical scholars about this issue.
Hafiz Bazzar after relating these traditions of Ibn Mas’ud in his Musnad, has written that he is solitary and isolated in his this opinion; no one from among the Companions has supported this view.

Yeah, the fact that the issue in question is a fabrication upon the name of the illustrious and noble Sahabi of Rasulullah , Abdullah ibn Mas`ud, who was known as amongst the most knowledgeable of all the Sahaba, who used to give fatawa during the life of Rasulullah , who was known as an expert in the Quran, is completely irrelevant.

As is the fact that this fabrication upon him endangers the entire claim of authenticity of the Quran and Islam as a whole, as Abdullah ibn Mas`ud is amongst the narrators of the Quran. That is irrelevant as well.

All that matter is that you make your point.

[CULTDIAMONDS]

Oh snap, make claims which the harms are as weighty as mountains but when challenged/refuted with evidence...the details are irrelevant.

Oh snap, the brain hurts.

[tearidrusydet]

Yeah, the fact that the issue in question is a fabrication upon the name of the illustrious and noble Sahabi of Rasulullah , Abdullah ibn Mas`ud, who was known as amongst the most knowledgeable of all the Sahaba, who used to give fatawa during the life of Rasulullah , who was known as an expert in the Quran, is completely irrelevant.

As is the fact that this fabrication upon him endangers the entire claim of authenticity of the Quran and Islam as a whole, as Abdullah ibn Mas`ud is amongst the narrators of the Quran. That is irrelevant as well.

All that matter is that you make your point.

Probably you have not studied the issue in details.Al-Haythami has declared Tabrani's chain to be authentic. I would leave it for the greater good.

[Opinion_counts]

As-Salamu `alaykum wa rahmatullah



He has. There are several answers on tawassul at SunniPath.com.



The fuqaha of the four schools permitted tawassul; this fact is mentioned in the related answers at SunniPath.com. Mufti Muhammad ibn Adam says in his answer:

If by seeking help from the Prophets and pious means making them an intermediary between the seeker and Allah, then there is nothing wrong in seeking their help. Tawassul (using intermediaries in supplication to Allah) through the Prophet (Allah bless him & give him peace), Awliya and righteous believers is permitted, rather recommended according to the four schools of Sunni Islam. (Istighatha: Calling Someone Other Than Allah for Help.)

Tawassul and Istighatha are different.

[byncnombmub]

Probably you have not studied the issue in details.Al-Haythami has declared Tabrani's chain to be authentic. I would leave it for the greater good.

It doesn't matter if the chain is authentic. The claim is Shaadh, and goes against what he narrated as being the Quran.

Maybe it is you who in fact has not studied the subject in details from someone other than an Ahlud-Hadith scholar who hates Hanafis so much that he would destroy the legitimacy of Islam itself in order to defame them.

[yarita]

Dear Brothers & Sisters, Assalaamoalaikum

Group Dhikr (loud of course) IS PERMISSIBLE and there are a lot of blessings in same, whether any Sahabi (ra) spoke against it or whether any Scholar said anything contrary.

Lest someone would come again with the question "Why did the Holy Messenger(SAW) or any of the Sahaba (ra) did not do so?", then may I submit again the following questions that to date have not been replied to, viz:

"Why did the Holy Messenger(SAW) did not do certain things?" and "Why did the Sahabah(ra) not do certain things?" ......... sau like Group Dhikr, since this is the topic under discussion.

Anything is impermissible if and only if same is not in harmony with the principles of ISLAM , as mentioned in a hadith provided by a Brother on some other Thread recently.

Brotherly yours
farook

[Dyslermergerb]

Where is this thread going? I started it to present a concise article by Shaykh Faraz(haf) on Sayyiduna Ibn Mas'ud and loud dhikr and people have started arguing about something completely unrelated.
Imam Abul Hasanaat(rah) presented 39 narrations in his book related to the validity of jehri dhikr. Hence, even if we accept that the mawquf report under discussion is authentic and 'Amr Hamadani(rah) can somehow be passed as Shaykh Albani(rah) did, then this opinion is in contradistinction to other authentic marfu' traditions. If after this, one is not convinced of the validity of the proof adduced then he can avoid loud dhikr alone as well as in groups and stick with soft dhikr which is preferable anyways. I think that is the middle path for those whose hearts are not mutma'in with loud dhikr. Allah knows Best. Wa salamu 'alaykum.

[drislerfottor]

As-Salamu `alaykum

Tawassul and Istighatha are different.

Istighatha is tawassul. Mufti Muhammad ibn Adam says in his answer (cited above):

This Tawassul may be expressed by using any phrase or done in any form, including:

Wasila (supplicating Allah through a means),

Istighatha (calling upon someone for help, through Allah’s love and concern for them),

Isti’ana (seeking someone’s assistance, through Allah’s granting). (Istighatha)
Istighatha is taught in the very hadith upon which the permissibility of tawassul is based; it is part of the sunna du`a of tawassul that the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) taught the blind man.

[byncnombmub]

As-Salamu `alaykum



Istighatha is tawassul. Mufti Muhammad ibn Adam says in his answer (cited above):

This Tawassul may be expressed by using any phrase or done in any form, including:

Wasila (supplicating Allah through a means),

Istighatha (calling upon someone for help, through Allah’s love and concern for them),

Isti’ana (seeking someone’s assistance, through Allah’s granting). (Istighatha)
Istighatha is taught in the very hadith upon which the permissibility of tawassul is based; it is part of the sunna du`a of tawassul that the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) taught the blind man.

Istighatha is a type of tawassul.

Not every form of tawassul is permissible according to all scholars.

I believe there is a very long thread on this forum somewhere which breaks down the different forms of tawassul and their rulings.

[Dyslermergerb]

ZIKR IN THE LIGHT OF PROPHETIC TRADITIONS ( AHADITH)
After having enumerating certain verses of the Holy Qur’an, mention is now made of certain Ahadith relating to the subject of Zikr some of which are of a general nature (whether loud/soft, masjid/home, etc.) and some are quite specific i.e. Zikr in the Masjid or loud Zikr, which will be alluded to under the explanation of the said Ahadith. Ten Ahadith have been selected for this section.

Hadith 1:

Abu Hurairah (RA) narrates from Rasulullah(saws) that there is a group of angels who patrol the earth and wherever they find any gathering of Zikr they call out to each other and form a circle around this gathering that reaches to the sky. When this gathering disperses, they return to the sky where they are questioned by Allah Ta’ala, although He is All-knowing: Where have you come from? They reply: We come from a gathering of Your servants who are engaged in Tasbeeh, Takbeer and Tahmeed. Allah Ta’ala asks them: Have they seen Me? The angels reply: No. Allah Ta’ala asks: And what if they had seen Me? They reply: Then they would have engaged even more excessively in Your Ibadah and in Tasbeeh (glorifying of) You. Allah Ta’ala says: What are they asking for? They reply: They ask of You Jannah. Allah Ta’ala then asks: Have they seen Jannah? The angels reply: No. Allah Ta’ala asks: And what if they had seen Jannah? They reply: Then they would have been even more desirous, eager and keen for it. Allah Ta’ala says: What are they seeking refuge from? They reply: They ask refuge from the Fire (of Hell). Allah Ta’ala asks: Have they seen the Fire? The angels reply: No. Allah Ta’ala asks: And what if they had seen it? They reply: Then they would have tried harder to escape from it and they would have been more fearful of it. Allah Ta’ala says: I make you witness that I have pardoned them. One angel exclaims: A certain person was not from them. He came (coincidentally) for some work. Allah Ta’ala says: They are such a people that even those who sit with them (for other work) will not be deprived.

– Narrated by Bukhari, Muslim, Baihaqi

Shaikh Zakariyya’s commentary on this Hadith:

This subject has also been narrated in numerous other traditions that the angels look for, listen to and sit with the ’gatherings‘ of Zikr.

Hadith 2:

Mu’awiyah (RA) narrates that Rasulullah (saws) once came forth to meet a group of the Sahabah. He said: What has caused you to congregate here? They replied: We have congregated here to remember Allah Ta’ala and to praise Him for guiding us to Islam and blessing us with it. He said: By Allah! Is this the only reason for your gathering? They replied: By Allah! This is the only reason for our gathering. He said: I had not made you swear an oath because I disbelieved you but Jibraeel came to me and informed me that Allah Ta’ala is boasting about you before the angels.- Narrated by Muslim, Tirmidhi, Nasa`i, Ibn Abi Shayba, Ahmad.

Shaikh Zakariyya’s commentary:

Mulla Ali Qari explains that Allah boasts about these people because despite having worldly engagements, natural desires, temptations and the shaitaan trying to mislead them, they do not neglect and turn away from My remembrance; then the Zikr of the angels who are faced with none of these obstacles is no comparison to their Zikr.

Hadith 3:

Abu Hurairah narrates that Rasulullah (saws) said that Allah Ta’ala says: I treat my servant according to his opinion of Me and I am with him when he remembers Me; if he remembers Me privately, I remember him privately and if he remembers Me in public, I remember him in a gathering (of the angels which is) better than his gathering.

- Narrated by Bukhari, Muslim, Tirmidhi, Nasa`i, Ibn Majah, Ahmad.

Hadith 4:

Abu Hurairah and Abu Sa’eed (RA) testify (upon oath) that Rasulullah(saws) said:

Any group of people who engage in the Zikr of Allah, the angels envelop them and mercy cascades upon them, tranquillity descends upon them and Allah remembers them in the presence of those who are by Him.

- Narrated by Muslim, Tirmidhi, Ibn Abi Shaiba.

It should be noted that this Hadith applies to Zikr in the Masjid and elsewhere.

Hadith 5:

Anas (RA) narrates that Rasulullah(saws) said: When you pass the gardens of paradise then graze well. They asked: What are the gardens of paradise? He replied: The gatherings of Zikr.

Shaikh Zakariyya’s commentary:

It means that the fortunate one who has an opportunity of reaching such a gathering must feel privileged that he had an opportunity of going into a ‘garden of Paradise’ in this world. ‘Graze well’ means that just as an animal enjoys grazing in a pasture and cannot be moved away easily even if it is beaten by the owner, so too the person ‘grazing’ in the ‘gardens of paradise’ must not be quickly distracted by worldly concerns or fears but should try to remain there as long as possible. Just as Jannah is a place that is free from all sorts of calamities, so too the gatherings of Zikr are ‘safe-havens’; free from all worldly calamities. This Hadith is general and applies to a Masjid or any where else

Hadith 6:

Abdur Rahman bin Sahl bin Haneef (RA) reports that Rasulullah (saws) was in one of his homes when the following verse of the Qur’an was revealed:
“and attach yourself with those who call out to their Rabb morning and evening” 18:28

Rasulullah (saws) came forth in search of the people mentioned in this verse. He found a group of engaged in the remembrance of Allah; among them were those with disheveled hair and parched skin and dressed only with a single garment. He came close to them and sat down among them exclaiming: All praise belongs to Allah for having made in my Ummah such people whom (even) I have been instructed to sit with.

- Narrated by Tabarani, Ibn Jareer.

Shaikh Zakariyya’s commentary:

In one Hadith it has been narrated that he searched for them and found them at the back of the Masjid, engaged in the remembrance of Allah. He stated similar words to the above Hadith and said: You (really) are my companions in life and after death. Ibrahim Nakhai says: it refers to those who are engaged in Zikr.

Hadith 7:

Abu Darda (RA) narrates that Rasulullah (ra) said: On the Day of Qiyama certain people will be raised by Allah Ta’ala in such a manner that their faces will be illuminated and they will be seated upon thrones of pearls, envied by the people; they will neither be Messengers or Martyrs. A bedouin exclaimed: Describe them to us so that we may recognise them. He replied: Those who love each other for Allah’s sake, coming from diverse tribes and different places, they gather for the remembrance of Allah.- Narrated by Tabrani (as reported in Targheeb and Durr)

Shaikh Zakariyya’s commentary:

These days, lots of criticisms are hurled against people who spend time in the Khanqah (centers for Zikr and spiritual training). Let the critics condemn as much as they wish, but tomorrow when people’s eyes will open, will they realise the value of the people of the Khanqahs who will be sitting on thrones made of pearls.

In one Hadith it has been narrated that the building wherein the Zikr of Allah is done, begins to shine for the inhabitants of the sky just as the stars shine for the people on earth. Abu Razeen (RA) a companion narrates that Rasulullah said: I will show you such a thing which will strengthen you in your Deen thereby causing you to succeed in both worlds; hold fast to the gatherings of Zikr and when you are in privacy, continue to engage in Zikr.

The virtues of the gatherings of Zikr have been mentioned in numerous Ahadith. In one Hadith it has been narrated that the best safeguard is Salaah and Majalis-Zikr. All of these Ahadith are mutlaq (non-specific); they could refer to Zikr gatherings in the Masjid and elsewhere.

Hadith 8:

Abu Sa’eed Khudri (RA) narrates that Rasulullah (saws) said: Engage so excessively in Zikr until they (wicked people) say He is mad!

- Narrated by Ahmad, Abu Ya’la, Haakim, Ibn Hibban

Shaikh Zakariyya’s commentary:

In another Hadith it has been narrated that engage so excessively in Zikr that the hypocrites call you an ostentatious person. From this Hadith it is clear that the hypocrites or foolish people may refer to you as a madman but this should not stop you from this wealth of Zikr. In fact, it is only loud and excessive Zikr that it will cause ignorant persons to regard him as a ‘madman’. Silent Zikr will not lead to this situation.
Abdullah bin Abbas (RA) narrates that Allah did not make anything compulsory without setting a limit for it or accepting an excuse for it except Zikr. As for Zikr, there are no limits and no excuses are acceptable until a person is sane; hence Allah Ta’ala mentions that engage excessively in the ‘ Zikr of Allah’ this is under all possible circumstances.

Hadith 9:

Anas (RA) narrates that Rasulullah (saws) said: To sit with a group of people who engage in Zikr after Fajr until sunrise is more beloved to me than all that upon which the sun rises (i.e. all the things of this world) and from after Asr to sun set is more beloved to me than the whole world and whatever it contains.

- Narrated by Baihaqi, Isbahani

Hadith 10:

Abu Sa’eed Khudri (RA) narrates that Rasulullah (saws) said: Allah Ta’ala will say on the Day of Judgment: Today the multitudes shall know who are the people of esteem and honour. It was asked: Who are the people of honour O Messenger of Allah? He replied: The Majalis (gatherings) of Zikr in the Masjid –

reported by Imam Suyuti in Natijatul-Fikr and Allamah Lucknowi in Sabahatul-Fikr on the authority of Ahmad, Abu-Ya’la and Ibn Hibban.

Part of an article on this issue by Shaykh 'Abdul Hafiz Makki. Tr by Mufti Zubair Bayat.

[Dyslermergerb]

LOUD ZIKR IN THE MASJID FROM THE HADITHAfter enumerating the above Ahadith on the subject of Majalis-Zikr, one Hadith that is specific to the subject of loud Zikr in the Masjid follows:

Zaid bin Aslam reports from a Sahabi (RA) that one night I walked with Rasulullah when he passed by a person in the Masjid who was engaged in loud Zikr. I said: O Messenger of Allah perhaps he is showing-off! He replied: No, in fact he is an Awwaah.

- Narrated by Baihaqi

Allamah Hafni explains: Awwaah is that person who experiences pangs of pain in the heart due to overwhelming and ardent love for Allah. The name of that Sahabi was Abdullah Zul-Bujadain (RA)

Shaikh Zakariyya comments on the incident narrated in this Hadith in greater detail. He states: Abdullah Zul-Bujadain (RA) was a Sahabi who became orphaned and was brought up by his uncle when he surreptitiously accepted Islam. When the uncle gained knowledge of this, he drove his nephew out of the house without a stitch of clothing on. His mother was equally angry at him but she was after all his mother so she spared him a coarse sheet to cover himself. Cutting the sheet into two pieces, he tied one around his waist and the other he draped around his shoulders and migrated to Madinah. Here he spent his days lying at the doorstep of Rasulullah engaging in excessive Zikr in a loud voice. Umar (RA) remarked that he was insincere. Rasulullah replied in the negative saying he was from the Awwaheen (check explanation above). He passed away at the occasion of Tabuk. Sahabah (RA) saw a light burning close to the grave and Rasulullah (Õáí Çááå Úáíå æÓáã) inside the grave, instructing Abu Bakr and Umar to pass the body of the deceased companion over to him. Thereafter, he prayed to Allah: “O Allah! I am pleased with him, You too be pleased with him.” Observing this honour Ibn-Mas’ud (RA) exclaimed: I wish I was in his place.

Some people opine that loud Zikr is an innovation and forbidden in Islam. This is due to unawareness of the Hadith corpus. Maulana Abdul Hayy Lucknowi has enumerated close onto fifty Ahadith on this subject in his work Sabahatul-Fikr which establishes the permissibility of loud Zikr. However, it is necessary to uphold the conditions and limits of the Shari’ah so that a person may not cause inconvenience to anyone ( Faza’il-Zikr)

[yarita]

Where is this thread going? I started it to present a concise article by Shaykh Faraz(haf) on Sayyiduna Ibn Mas'ud and loud dhikr and people have started arguing about something completely unrelated.
Imam Abul Hasanaat(rah) presented 39 narrations in his book related to the validity of jehri dhikr. Hence, even if we accept that the mawquf report under discussion is authentic and 'Amr Hamadani(rah) can somehow be passed as Shaykh Albani(rah) did, then this opinion is in contradistinction to other authentic marfu' traditions. If after this, one is not convinced of the validity of the proof adduced then he can avoid loud dhikr alone as well as in groups and stick with soft dhikr which is preferable anyways. I think that is the middle path for those whose hearts are not mutma'in with loud dhikr. Allah knows Best. Wa salamu 'alaykum.

Dear Brother, Assalaamoalaikum

Alhamdulillah. This is the Way of Islam.

Allah(SWT) Knows Best.

Brotherly yours
farook

[Dyslermergerb]

Dear Brother, Assalaamoalaikum

Alhamdulillah. This is the Way of Islam.

Allah(SWT) Knows Best.

Brotherly yours
farook

[shemadagaswer]

By far, the best book I've found on this topic in English is by Mufti Ahmed Desai (damat barakuhum):

http://www.alislam.co.za/cms/publica...unnah-booklet/

It clarifies in a thorough manner the position of the Aimmah Mujtahideen and the early fuqaha from whom the Deobandi akabir have adopted their position with regards to this issue.

[phernikas]

im confused, do deobandis have one position on this issue or is there serious ikhtilaaf? Do any of them say group dhickr is bid'ah and on what grounds?

Also dr ati can you bring a response to the statements abu tamim made on the disparagement of some of the narrators of the hadeeth?

this is an importan tissue for me so would like to get to the bottom of it inshAllah

[shemadagaswer]

im confused, do deobandis have one position on this issue or is there serious ikhtilaaf? Do any of them say group dhickr is bid'ah and on what grounds?

Also dr ati can you bring a response to the statements abu tamim made on the disparagement of some of the narrators of the hadeeth?

this is an importan tissue for me so would like to get to the bottom of it inshAllah

It's not a simple issue. You'll have to study a bit to gain some clarity. If your read the book whose link I posted, then your confusions will be alleviated to a great extent inshaAllah.

[Arrecteve]

RE: Faraz Rabbani, ibn Adam al-Kawthari, et al.

There was a time when I would check 'Sunni'Path to check the different views, but every since I found out about their beliefs, I stopped take anything coming from them seriously any more. Same with ibn Adam, I used to enjoy his style of speaking and would attend his lectures, but now I especially avoid him because theres not much things worse then a deceiver with an eloquent tongue.

Istighatha is shirk by 'ijma regardless of who it is propagated by, whether the person is rafidhi, shia, sufi, salafi, barelvi, deobandi or whatever else. Shirk is one thing that can never be tolerated and needs to condemned everytime it raises its ugly head.

So I for one, can not understand why people on the one hand say a thing is shirk and then with the other hand are still cosy with those who propagate it!