[Dyslermergerb]

Did the Great Companion Abdullah Ibn Mas’ud Prohibit Group Dhikr?
Answered by Shaykh Faraz Rabbani

Question: Someone threw the following narration at me a couple of days ago, do you happen to know it or have any commentary upon it at all?
This is [said to be] a narration from the companion Abdullah Ibn Mas’ood:
From ‘Amr Ibn Salamah: “We used to sit at the door of ‘Abdullaah Ibn Mas’ood before the Morning Prayer, so that when he came out, we would be able to walk with him to the mosque. So Abo Mosa al-Ash’aree came to us, so he said, “Has Abo ‘Abdur-Rahmaan come out yet?” So we said, “No.” So he sat with us until he came out. So when he came out, all of us stood up with him. So Abo Mosa said to him, “O Abaa ‘Abdur-Rahmaan, verily I saw in the mosque a detestable action that I hated, but I did not see, and the praise is for Allaah, anything except good.”
He said, “So what was it?” He said, “If you live, you will see it. I saw in the mosque, a people sitting in circles, waiting for the Prayer. There was a man in every circle, and in their hands were pebbles, so he would say: “Say Allahu Akbar (Allah is Greater) one hundred times,” so they would say it one hundred times. So he would say: “Say al-hamdulillah (the praise is for Allah) one hundred times,” so they would say it one hundred times. And he would say: “Say subhanallah (Free is Allah from all imperfection) one hundred times,” so they would say it one hundred times. He said, “So what did you say to them?” He said, “I did not say to them anything, I waited for your command.”
He said, “Would that you had ordered them to count up their evil deeds, and assured them that nothing from their evil deeds would be lost!” Then he went, and we went with him, until he came upon the circles of these people. So he stood over them and said, “What is this that I see you doing?!” They said, “O Abaa ‘Abdur-Rahmaan, these are pebbles upon which we count the takbeer, tahleel, and tasbeeh.”
He said, “Then count up your evil deeds, and I assure you that nothing from your evil deeds will be lost. Woe to you O Ummah of Muhammad! How quickly you rush to destruction! These are the Companions of your Prophet (sallallahu ‘alayhi wa sallam) who are abundant. And these are his clothes that have not yet decayed, and his bowl that is still unbroken. By Him in Whose Hand my soul is, either you are upon the religion better guided than the Ummah of Muhammad, or you are opening the door to misguidance.”
They said, “By Allah O Abaa ‘Abdur-Rahmaan, we did not intend anything except good.” He said, “And how many people intend good yet do not achieve it? Verily the Messenger (sallallahu ‘alayhi wa sallam) informed us: “Verily there will be a people reciting the Qur’an, yet it will not pass beyond their throats. By Allah I do not know, perhaps most of them are from amongst you.” Then he left them. So ‘Amr Ibn Salamah said: “We saw the great majority of these people fight against us upon the day of an-Nahrawan along with the Khawarij.”

Answer: In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful

Walaikum assalam,
The narration you mention was discussed by Imam Abd al-Hayy al-Lakhnawi, [1] in his book on the permissibility of loud group dhikr, Sibahat al-Fikr fil Jahri bil Dhikr. [2] He said, while presenting the evidences for those who hold such dhikr to be impermissible, before proving the contrary:
This may be answered in several ways:
First, while this narration was mention by a group of fuqaha, it does not have any trace in the books of hadith. Rather, what is authentically established from Ibn Mas`ud (Allah be pleased with him) is the contrary.
Imam al-Suyuti (Allah have mercy on him) said in Natijat al-Fikr [his work on the permissibility of group dhikr out loud], “This narration from Ibn Mas`ud (Allah be pleased with him) needs exposition in terms of its
chain of narrations and who of the hadith masters transmitted it in their works, and I have seen evidence that would disprove its being established from Ibn Mas`ud. ” Ahmad ibn Hanbal transmitted in his Kitab al-Zuhd, that Husain ibn Muhammad related with his chain from Abu Wa’il that he said, “Those who think that Abdullah [Ibn Mas`ud] used to prohibit the dhikr! I never sat with Abdullah [Ibn Mas`ud] in a gathering
save that he did dhikr in it.”
Second, even if this narration were established, it goes against explicit rigorously authenticated Prophetic hadiths that permit dhikr out loud as long as it is not excessively loud. [3] These hadiths are given
precedence [over this narration] when their indication conflicts.
Third, what al-Bazzazi mentioned in his Fatawa. (Sibahat al-Fikr, 42-43)

What al-Bazzazi [4] said was, “If he [Ibn Mas`ud] actually removed them from the masjid, it is possible that it was because they believed that it was an act of worship [specifically enjoined], and to teach people that such a belief is a blameworthy innovation. [5] (Sibahat al-Fikr , 27-28)
Among the proofs for the permissibility of group dhikr:
1. What Bukhari, Muslim, Tirmidhi, Nasa’i, Ibn Majah, and Bayhaqi narrated from Abu Hurayra (Allah be pleased with him) that the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him and give him peace) said,
Allah says, “I am as My servant thinks of Me, and I am with him when he makes remembrance (dhikr) of Me. If he makes remembrance of Me to himself, I make remembrance of him to Myself. If he makes remembrance of Me in a gathering, I make remembrance of him in a gathering better than it.”
Imam al-Jazari (Allah have mercy on him) said in his Miftah al-Hisn al-Hasin, [6] “This hadiths indicates the permissibility of group dhikr.” Imam al-Suyuti said, [7] “Group dhikr can only be out loud, so this hadith indicates its permissibility.” After this hadith, Imam Lakhnawi quotes thirty nine other hadiths of the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) that indicate the permissibility of group dhikr. (Sibahat al-Fikr 44-58)
Imam Lakhnawi, a Hanafi, then quoted numerous Hanafi authorities, including al-Bazzazi, Abd al-Haqq al-Dahlawi, Khayr al-Din al-Ramli, and others, who said group dhikr is permitted. [This is also the position adopted by al-Tahtawi and Ibn Abidin, the two foremost references for fatwa in the Hanafi school, and there is no consequential disagreement about the permissibility of group dhikr in the Shafi`i school; it is the recorded position of al-Nawawi, Ibn Hajar, al-Subki, Ibn Daqiq, Ibn Abd al-Salam, al-Khalili, and their other imams].
He concluded by stating, “As for loud dhikr, the hadiths permitting it are numerous, as are the reports [from the Companions and early Muslims], and we did not find a single proof clearly indicating that loud dhikr is impermissible or disliked.” The hadith experts, Shafi`i fuqaha and some Hanafi fuqaha [8] also permitted it.
It should be noted, too, that when it comes to the legal ruling of a particular human act, it is our duty to see what the legal experts of Islam, the fuqaha of the four schools, said about the matter. Any matter that they deemed permitted may not be criticized by the common person or deemed wrong, for they are the inheritors of the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace), and they fulfilled the duty of operationalizing the sunnah of the Beloved of Allah.
Wassalam,
Faraz Rabbani
[1] Imam Lakhnawi died 1306 AH, at the age of 39, after having authored over 120 books, many of with were multiple volume works, and he is considered to have been one of the great mujaddids (renewers) of the 14th Islamic Century.
[2] It is noteworthy that this work was edited by Shaykh Abd al-Fattah Abu Ghudda (Allah have mercy on him), the Hanafi faqih who is widely acknowledged to have been one of the foremost hadith experts of the 20th Century, and whose numerous books and critical editions of classic works are highly esteemed by students and scholars of sacred law across the Muslim world.
[3] Such that it annoys others, or, if in a masjid, distracts those who come to pray.
[4] Imam al-Bazzazi’s Fatawa are a major reference in Hanafi fiqh.
[5] That is, they believed that such group dhikr was specifically enjoined by Allah and His Messenger, which is blameworthy. Rather, the correct understanding is that it falls under the general command to do much dhikr, in any permitted way. Their being people of innovation is, of course, borne out by the final part of the narration itself, as the great majority of these people fought with the deviant Kharijites against the Companions of the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace).
[6] This is one of the most authoritative and most used sources on Prophetic invocations, and has been accepted and commented upon by great scholars of Islam.
[7] Imam al-Suyuti’s words carry great weight, as it is generally agreed that he was a mujtahid. He authored at least 800 works, in virtually every science of Islam.
[8] Including most late authorities in the Hanafi school.
Wa salamu `alaykum

[pKgGpUlF]

may be Faraz can also cite hadith on the permissibility of saying 'Ya Ali Madad' ?

[plantBanceper]

Did the Great Companion Abdullah Ibn Mas’ud Prohibit Group Dhikr?
Answered by Shaykh Faraz Rabbani

Question: Someone threw the following narration at me a couple of days ago, do you happen to know it or have any commentary upon it at all?
This is [said to be] a narration from the companion Abdullah Ibn Mas’ood:

Where is the link for this article ? can u post it ?

[tearidrusydet]

First, while this narration was mention by a group of fuqaha, it does not have any trace in the books of hadith.

The narration can be found in the Muqaddima Sunan e Darmi with an authentic chain , deemed authentic by Shaykh Albani ra in "Silsilah Ahadeeth As-Saheehaha". Any excuses for loud dhikr after the fatwa of Ibn masoo'd ra are irrelevant.

مسعود قبل صلاة الغداة فإذا خرج مشينا معه إلى المسجد فجاءنا أبو موسى الأشعري فقال أخرج إليكم أبو عبد الرحمن بعد قلنا لا فجلس معنا حتى خرج فلما خرج قمنا إليه جميعا فقال له أبو موسى يا أبا عبد الرحمن إني رأيت في المسجد آنفا أمرا أنكرته ولم أر والحمد لله إلا خيرا قال فما هو فقال إن عشت فستراه قال رأيت في المسجد قوما حلقا جلوسا ينتظرون الصلاة في كل حلقة رجل وفي أيديهم حصى فيقول كبروا مائة فيكبرون مائة فيقول هللوا مائة فيهللون مائة ويقول سبحوا مائة فيسبحون مائة قال فماذا قلت لهم قال ما قلت لهم شيئا انتظار رأيك وانتظار أمرك قال أفلا أمرتهم أن يعدوا سيئاتهم وضمنت لهم أن لا يضيع من حسناتهم ثم مضى ومضينا معه حتى أتى حلقة من تلك الحلق فوقف عليهم فقال ما هذا الذي أراكم تصنعون قالوا يا أبا عبد الرحمن حصى نعد به التكبير والتهليل والتسبيح قال فعدوا سيئاتكم فأنا ضامن أن لا يضيع من حسناتكم شيء ويحكم يا أمة محمد ما أسرع هلكتكم هؤلاء صحابة نبيكم صلى الله عليه وسلم متوافرون وهذه ثيابه لم تبل وآنيته لم تكسر والذي نفسي بيده إنكم لعلى ملة هي أهدى من ملة محمد أو مفتتحو باب ضلالة قالوا والله يا أبا عبد الرحمن ما أردنا إلا الخير قال وكم من مريد للخير لن يصيبه إن رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم حدثنا أن قوما يقرءون القرآن لا يجاوز تراقيهم وايم الله ما أدري لعل أكثرهم منكم ثم تولى عنهم

[xjNo4zvD]

may be Faraz can also cite hadith on the permissibility of saying 'Ya Ali Madad' ?

Shaykh Faraz, would be a more respectable address.

[Dyslermergerb]

The narration can be found in the Muqaddima Sunan e Darmi with an authentic chain , deemed authentic by Shaykh Albani ra in "Silsilah Ahadeeth As-Saheehaha". Any excuses for loud dhikr after the fatwa of Ibn masoo'd ra are irrelevant.

مسعود قبل صلاة الغداة فإذا خرج مشينا معه إلى المسجد فجاءنا أبو موسى الأشعري فقال أخرج إليكم أبو عبد الرحمن بعد قلنا لا فجلس معنا حتى خرج فلما خرج قمنا إليه جميعا فقال له أبو موسى يا أبا عبد الرحمن إني رأيت في المسجد آنفا أمرا أنكرته ولم أر والحمد لله إلا خيرا قال فما هو فقال إن عشت فستراه قال رأيت في المسجد قوما حلقا جلوسا ينتظرون الصلاة في كل حلقة رجل وفي أيديهم حصى فيقول كبروا مائة فيكبرون مائة فيقول هللوا مائة فيهللون مائة ويقول سبحوا مائة فيسبحون مائة قال فماذا قلت لهم قال ما قلت لهم شيئا انتظار رأيك وانتظار أمرك قال أفلا أمرتهم أن يعدوا سيئاتهم وضمنت لهم أن لا يضيع من حسناتهم ثم مضى ومضينا معه حتى أتى حلقة من تلك الحلق فوقف عليهم فقال ما هذا الذي أراكم تصنعون قالوا يا أبا عبد الرحمن حصى نعد به التكبير والتهليل والتسبيح قال فعدوا سيئاتكم فأنا ضامن أن لا يضيع من حسناتكم شيء ويحكم يا أمة محمد ما أسرع هلكتكم هؤلاء صحابة نبيكم صلى الله عليه وسلم متوافرون وهذه ثيابه لم تبل وآنيته لم تكسر والذي نفسي بيده إنكم لعلى ملة هي أهدى من ملة محمد أو مفتتحو باب ضلالة قالوا والله يا أبا عبد الرحمن ما أردنا إلا الخير قال وكم من مريد للخير لن يصيبه إن رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم حدثنا أن قوما يقرءون القرآن لا يجاوز تراقيهم وايم الله ما أدري لعل أكثرهم منكم ثم تولى عنهم

for the post Dr Sahab. I am sure that Shaykh Nasiruddin had his reasons for declaring the narration authentic, . Being a non scholar, I would prefer the opinions of the earlier Muhaddithin also.
One of the narrators of this riwaya is `Amr ibn Salma al-Hamdaani and he is da`eef.
Yahya ibn Ma`in: "his narrations are worth nothing";
Ibn Kharrash: "he is not accepted;
Imam Shamsuddin al-Dhahabi listed him among those who are weak and whose hadith is not retained in al-Du`afa' wal-Matrukin & Meezan al-I`tidal.
Ibn Hajar al-Haythami declared him weak (da`eef) in Majma` al-Zawaid.
Imam al-Suyuti questioned the authenticity of this hadith in al-Hawi; Imam Lacknawi in Sibahat al-Fikr quoted al Hifnee who questioned it.
WS.

[pKgGpUlF]

I'm really nothing compared to you on this forum, let alone 'ulama. But I'm not blind either and my heart cannot call 'shaykh' such a person. Looking forward to your view on it

[Dyslermergerb]

I'm really nothing compared to you on this forum, let alone 'ulama. But I'm not blind either and my heart cannot call 'shaykh' such a person. Looking forward to your view on it

A part of a Muslim's Islam is to leave that which does not concern him.
Nawawi's 40.

[pKgGpUlF]

Kindly tell me how does it apply here ? Sunnipath and its fatwas are advertised on this forum should I not then only mention his view on this touchy matter when nothing is said when we bash salafis ?

Wassalam.

[Dyslermergerb]

Kindly tell me how does it apply here ? Sunnipath and its fatwas are advertised on this forum should I not then only mention his view on this touchy matter when nothing is said when we bash salafis ?

Wassalam.

Chill bro, chill. Here have a falooda with icecream and tukhmbaalanga floating on top.
1) the hadith of Nabi(asws) apply everywhere.
2) there are many fatawa on sunnipath by many people. Our 'Ulama disagree with other scholars on SP also. You ought to know that.
3) Which touchy matter are you referring to?
4) The mods keep an eye on who is bashing who. But this is not a perfect world.
So why not relax?

[pKgGpUlF]

Chill bro, chill. Here have a falooda with icecream and tukhmbaalanga floating on top.
1) the hadith of Nabi(asws) apply everywhere.
2) there are many fatawa on sunnipath by many people. Our 'Ulama disagree with other scholars on SP also. You ought to know that.
3) Which touchy matter are you referring to?
4) The mods keep an eye on who is bashing who. But this is not a perfect world.
So why not relax?

One of the negative points of a forum is you can't figure out the mood of the person typing.
I'm sorry for hijacking your thread, but I found it odd Sh Faraz points out that "it is our duty to see what the legal experts of Islam, the fuqaha of the four schools, said about the matter" yet allows saying 'Ya 'Ali madad' (aka the touchy matter) without supporting his claim by the aforementioned experts.

[FreeOEMcheapestPHOTOSHOP]

I'm really nothing compared to you on this forum, let alone 'ulama. But I'm not blind either and my heart cannot call 'shaykh' such a person. Looking forward to your view on it

then write sentence without mentioning his name bro =)

we gotta type or say 100 things which isnt present in our heart though.

[ddwayspd]

I never knew Shaikh Albani was the sole arbtrater of Haq and batil. Scholar even questioned his scholastic credential in hadith and Fiqh. Are we to accept him over the Salf us Saleh of Jumhur. This blind following of Mr. Albani has to be done away with. As Dr. Ati has nicely put it 'such fatawa' is irrlevent. I wonder who is really irrlevant here - a recent scholar (with questionable grasp of hadith and fiqh) or scholar like Imam Suyuti or Al Dahabi RAH!!!

[byncnombmub]

The narration can be found in the Muqaddima Sunan e Darmi with an authentic chain , deemed authentic by Shaykh Albani ra in "Silsilah Ahadeeth As-Saheehaha". Any excuses for loud dhikr after the fatwa of Ibn masoo'd ra are irrelevant.

مسعود قبل صلاة الغداة فإذا خرج مشينا معه إلى المسجد فجاءنا أبو موسى الأشعري فقال أخرج إليكم أبو عبد الرحمن بعد قلنا لا فجلس معنا حتى خرج فلما خرج قمنا إليه جميعا فقال له أبو موسى يا أبا عبد الرحمن إني رأيت في المسجد آنفا أمرا أنكرته ولم أر والحمد لله إلا خيرا قال فما هو فقال إن عشت فستراه قال رأيت في المسجد قوما حلقا جلوسا ينتظرون الصلاة في كل حلقة رجل وفي أيديهم حصى فيقول كبروا مائة فيكبرون مائة فيقول هللوا مائة فيهللون مائة ويقول سبحوا مائة فيسبحون مائة قال فماذا قلت لهم قال ما قلت لهم شيئا انتظار رأيك وانتظار أمرك قال أفلا أمرتهم أن يعدوا سيئاتهم وضمنت لهم أن لا يضيع من حسناتهم ثم مضى ومضينا معه حتى أتى حلقة من تلك الحلق فوقف عليهم فقال ما هذا الذي أراكم تصنعون قالوا يا أبا عبد الرحمن حصى نعد به التكبير والتهليل والتسبيح قال فعدوا سيئاتكم فأنا ضامن أن لا يضيع من حسناتكم شيء ويحكم يا أمة محمد ما أسرع هلكتكم هؤلاء صحابة نبيكم صلى الله عليه وسلم متوافرون وهذه ثيابه لم تبل وآنيته لم تكسر والذي نفسي بيده إنكم لعلى ملة هي أهدى من ملة محمد أو مفتتحو باب ضلالة قالوا والله يا أبا عبد الرحمن ما أردنا إلا الخير قال وكم من مريد للخير لن يصيبه إن رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم حدثنا أن قوما يقرءون القرآن لا يجاوز تراقيهم وايم الله ما أدري لعل أكثرهم منكم ثم تولى عنهم

I guess we can also say that any excuses for rafa` al-yadain after the fatwa of Abdullah ibn Mas`ud are irrelevant, right?

Especially when those ahadith are actually authentic?

[tearidrusydet]

Here is What Shaykh Albani Rahimuhullah says after mentioning this Hadith " Silsila Ahaddth e Sahiha" . One can find his reasons for deeming the Sanad of this narration authentic.


free image hosting

image hosting service

[tearidrusydet]

I never knew Shaikh Albani was the sole arbtrater of Haq and batil. Scholar even questioned his scholastic credential in hadith and Fiqh. Are we to accept him over the Salf us Saleh of Jumhur. This blind following of Mr. Albani has to be done away with. As Dr. Ati has nicely put it 'such fatawa' is irrlevent. I wonder who is really irrlevant here - a recent scholar (with questionable grasp of hadith and fiqh) or scholar like Imam Suyuti or Al Dahabi RAH!!!

The Jarah of Al-Haythami and Sayuti here is understandable so i won't take it. Do you agree with everything Imam Al-Dhahabi rahimuhullah deemed correct?

[tearidrusydet]

I guess we can also say that any excuses for rafa` al-yadain after the fatwa of Abdullah ibn Mas`ud are irrelevant, right?

Especially when those ahadith are actually authentic?

I think we agree on rejecting the views of Abdullah Ibn Mas'ood ra on Al-Mu`awwidhatain on the basis of Ijmaa' opposing it. Don't we?

[cl004]

I guess we can also say that any excuses for rafa` al-yadain after the fatwa of Abdullah ibn Mas`ud are irrelevant, right?

Especially when those ahadith are actually authentic?

....you took these words out of my keyboard I swear...Though I had planned to never write this as I am through with these discussions...

[drislerfottor]

As-Salamu `alaykum wa rahmatullah

may be Faraz can also cite hadith on the permissibility of saying 'Ya Ali Madad' ?

He has. There are several answers on tawassul at SunniPath.com.

I'm sorry for hijacking your thread, but I found it odd Sh Faraz points out that "it is our duty to see what the legal experts of Islam, the fuqaha of the four schools, said about the matter" yet allows saying 'Ya 'Ali madad' (aka the touchy matter) without supporting his claim by the aforementioned experts.

The fuqaha of the four schools permitted tawassul; this fact is mentioned in the related answers at SunniPath.com. Mufti Muhammad ibn Adam says in his answer:

If by seeking help from the Prophets and pious means making them an intermediary between the seeker and Allah, then there is nothing wrong in seeking their help. Tawassul (using intermediaries in supplication to Allah) through the Prophet (Allah bless him & give him peace), Awliya and righteous believers is permitted, rather recommended according to the four schools of Sunni Islam. (Istighatha: Calling Someone Other Than Allah for Help.)

[byncnombmub]

I think we agree on rejecting the views of Abdullah Ibn Mas'ood ra on Al-Mu`awwidhatain on the basis of Ijmaa' opposing it. Don't we?

I think if you actually believe that Abdullah ibn Mas`ud didn't know that those surahs were part of the Quran then you have no real reason to believe in any Hadith, or anything else for that matter, transmitted by him, as even the most ignorant Muslim today knows this.