[Lilji]

But ofcourse Ibn Katheer , Wakee' , ibn Ta'oos etc were biased because of their indopak mentality.. since they were so weak as well..

There is a reason why the Shariah has made segregation such an integral parts of the Deen. There is a reason why Rasulullah has said the biggest fitnah he has left is women. There is a reason why women need a mahram. There is a reason why Allah Ta'ala has ordered the women to remain in their homes and cover themselves up when they emerge for a necessity. There is a reason why women are prohibited from emerging with perfume and if they do they are likened to an adulteress. There is a reason why when a woman emerges Shaitaan follows her.

But yes sister all of this is due to the biased South Asian mentality or the weakness of men.

[plalleste]

br. nomadic,

I realized later on you had deleted your post, hen I deleted my response. JazakAllah for explaining your point. My concern was not on layman's practice but on establishing and publishing the madhab's opinion. Jazak Allah for clarification nonetheless.

[cepAceryTem]

Brother London786, how do get by walking the streets of London i.e. shopping etc? Just wondering as I don't want you to get in trouble by losing control and doing something stupid.

Do they have male only streets and shopping centres down your end or something?

[Wckcvhsg]

Comparing shopping in London (where one is constantly on the move in the busy streets) to a gathering of mixed genders (where on is stationary especially where some sisters are standing not afar) is indeed a prime example of how the 'Aql has departed:

As Mufti Abu Hajirah posted:

حَدَّثَنَا وَكِيع، عَنْ سُفْيَانَ، عَنِ ابْنِ طَاوُسٍ، عَنِ أَبِيهِ: {خُلِقَ الإنْسَانُ ضَعِيفًا} أَيْ: فِي أَمْرِ النِّسَاءِ، وَقَالَ وَكِيعٌ: يَذْهَبُ عَقْلُهُ عِنْدَهُنَّ

Mufti Abu Hajirah's post nails it.

Wallahu A'lam.

May Allah set our affairs straight.

[Trebbinsa]

Yes I am that weak and the majority of men are that weak. Whoever says he is not weak is Mashallah some big time sufi or maybe.....gay

Spot on.

And thinking otherwise (i.e. not to be weak and thus to be able to do without [the established rules of Shari'ah regarding men-women relations]) is a NAFSANI AND SHAYTANI TRACT OF ARROGANCE AND SELF-PERCEIVED SUPERIORITY.

[Trebbinsa]

Brother London786, how do get by walking the streets of London i.e. shopping etc? Just wondering as I don't want you to get in trouble by losing control and doing something stupid.

Do they have male only streets and shopping centres down your end or something?

So are you comparing the streets of a non-Muslim country with an self-proclaimed "Islamic retreat" who could have organized appropriate segregation of genders?

Yeah, you're right: that's a correct comparison, as those "tradizionalists" (i.e. those people who just blindly follow and justificate any tradition and custom whether it is established in Shari'ah or not) chose to organize their meeting according to the uses and the schemes of the kuffar.

[cepAceryTem]

So it's ok to sit in a bus filled with females as long as they are kuffar, right? But if they are Muslim it's a no no?

Same with university lecture theatres etc. - it's ok to have them mixed cos they're not muslim are they?

We in the west spend the whole day interacting with females, but when it comes down to something islamic we develop some kind of blame complex. I just feel we need to make the best out of a bad situation.

[Trebbinsa]

Coming back to the topic, let's lists some of the obsessions-leitmotives of the "traditionalist sub-culture social group" (as the "salafi sub-culture too has one):

-"The mythical lands of Sham", which serves as an essential tools for "modern evolved Barelwis" to downplay the "Indian (Deobandi)Hanafis" as some kind of "ignorant, 'Ajami, semi-Wahhabi bigots", highlighting the difference that "Arab Hanafis" have with them - without taking into consideration the political climate of tyranny and oppression which close the mouths of the 'ulama' (see: http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/show...l=1#post563607)

-"The mythical ijazah system", which takes no account of the huge changes and problems it has recently gone through (see: http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/show...906&viewfull=1)

-The dichotomy between "interior" and "exterior": instead of promoting the working on both (as is the Sunnah way and that of Ahl as-Sunnah wa al-Jama'ah), a fracture is being "created" by which if someone is "too much picky" with the "exterior apparences" (which may also mean the following of Shari'ah in itself) it automatically means he's an "exteriorist" who gives no attention to the healing of his "inner self", to the purification of the nafs, and so on. Either you're a Wahhabi exteriorist (with exterior Sunnah), or you are a wise laxist Sufi (with claims of following the interior Sunnat, a claim which hardly resists the test of the confrontation against their double standards and personal attacks); that's why Deobandis - who masha'Allah are precise on all the Sunnat are almost classified as "Wahhabies", and thus the "wise traditionalist Sufi" can freely entertain in his mind the thought of being superior (which is against in contrast with their claim to purity).

I may add others when I remember, insha'Allah.

[tsamprasxx]

So it's ok to sit in a bus filled with females as long as they are kuffar, right? But if they are Muslim it's a no no?

Same with university lecture theatres etc. - it's ok to have them mixed cos they're not muslim are they?

We in the west spend the whole day interacting with females, but when it comes down to something islamic we develop some kind of blame complex. I just feel we need to make the best out of a bad situation.

.



Okay, let's compare your flawed examples:

1. Sitting in a bus filled with women is NOT okay unless it is necessary. This "Islamic retreat" is not necessary. Bus rides also do not last 6 days unless one is travelling from the East coast to the West coast. And this is regardless of whether the women are Muslim or non-Muslim.
2. University lectures do not last 6 days. Also, there is hardly a time during the lectures when you have to interact or even get time to interact with women. You pay attention to the lecture and then leave. During this "Islamic retreat", you cannot leave. You're out in the woods with a bunch of sisters.
3. Interacting with women in the West should only be out of necessity. What is the necessity involved in this "Islamic retreat" to have women come along? Would a believing Muslim go out of their way to speak to the opposite gender? This trip is people going way out of their way to be in the company of non-mahram individuals.

[Trebbinsa]

So it's ok to sit in a bus filled with females as long as they are kuffar, right? But if they are Muslim it's a no no?

Same with university lecture theatres etc. - it's ok to have them mixed cos they're not muslim are they?

THAT'S NOT MY POINT.

My point is that you can't choose how people dress in the street or shops you walk in; but you can choose how to organize an Islamic course which you can organize as you want - thus, no justification can be made comparing what you choose not to do with the situation in the outside world.

Shall we have free-mixing inside masjids, too?
Why not, won't pious men and women meet other women and men in the streets as soon as they go out of the mosque?
So why keeping the segregation inside? Isn't it "hypocritical"?...

Answer yourself to these questions and you'll have answered also the point regarding how to set up an "Islamic conference/meeting/whatever".

[Trebbinsa]

This trip is people going way out of their way to be in the company of non-mahram individuals.

They are "unfortunately" following the "Sunnah" of Ikwhani gender-mixed gatherings as they are organized in the whole world by the international Ikhwani network.

[truportodfa]

Some people believe there is nothing wrong at all with what those Muslims did.

and then there are people who believe in chehel kaaf { science of controlling and using Jinn }/ writing formulas to break up people and hiding it between rocks.

Here's London786's thread on how to contact some creatures he called Muakillat complete with formulas >> http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/show...36-chehel-kaaf

The sayings 'He who lives in a glasshouse shouldn't throw stones ' and 'Let everyone sweep in front of their own door, and the world will be clean' spring to mind.

[Trebbinsa]

Some people believe there is nothing wrong at all with what those Muslims did.

Those some people don't know abotu Shari'ah and would have better done keeping their mouth closed.

and then there are people who believe in chehel kaaf { science of controlling and using Jinn }/ writing formulas to break up people and hiding it between rocks.

Here's London786's thread on how to contact some creatures he called Muakillat complete with formulas >> http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/show...36-chehel-kaaf

The sayings 'He who lives in a glasshouse shouldn't throw stones ' and 'Let everyone sweep in front of their own door, and the world will be clean' spring to mind.

Nice character-assassination stratagem; how does this make free-mixing in the woods permissible?

[juptVatoSoito]

Calm down brothers and sisters.

Hadith - Bukhari's Book of Manners #330

Ibn 'Abbas said on the following verse of the Qur'an, "Nor defame one another" (49:11),
"Do not spend your time finding fault with one another."


Sometimes people point out faults for improvement, sometimes just to insult. Lets make sure we don't fall into the second category

[Desflahd]

this is a lil bit of a silly thread! free intermingling of genders (like in the "picnic link" provided) is totally prohibitted in islaam, nothing new - it was haraam for the last 1400 years and will remain haraam till qiyaamahs day, irrespective of who says what.

[SeelaypeKet]

Some people believe there is nothing wrong at all with what those Muslims did.

and then there are people who believe in chehel kaaf { science of controlling and using Jinn }/ writing formulas to break up people and hiding it between rocks.

Here's London786's thread on how to contact some creatures he called Muakillat complete with formulas >> http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/show...36-chehel-kaaf

The sayings 'He who lives in a glasshouse shouldn't throw stones ' and 'Let everyone sweep in front of their own door, and the world will be clean' spring to mind.

When I saw this strange way to justify an anti-shariah 'Islamic' retreat, i too remembered a wise saying : "An Idil mind is devil's workshop." !

[truportodfa]

Idle sir,

[SingleMan]

Do we have them at other places also? India?
Wassalam

[Trebbinsa]

Do we have them at other places also? India?
Wassalam

They are the "natural evolution" of the most "bright" minds among Barelwis settling in the west and reacting to its stimulus in such a particular way; I don't think there is a proper equivalent of them in India..

[SingleMan]

They are the "natural evolution" of more "bright" minds among Barelwis setting in the west and reacting to its stimulus in such a particular way; I don't think there is a proper equivalent of them in India..

brother-I was finding it difficult to connect with the discussion.
Wassalam