[feeshyLew]

assalamu alaikum
plz see this ndtv news vidio for this topic.barelvi uleema called him kafir,government Banned on him in Lucknow
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dqVNLWQF1WU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2KsKB50c8WI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GqhOIgsEOl8

i wouldnt call aleh hadith and salafis kaffir, yes they are anti madhab and anti sufi but they wouldnt be considered kaffirs. dr zakir is doing alot for islam and he has converted many people to islam. he should be praised for this. but brelvis calling him a kaffir, well tell me something new. who do brelvis not call a kaffir. everyones a kaffir according to these biryani loving halwa stufffing ladoo grabbing brelvis

[feeshyLew]

Well, there is not much you can do when 60% of the Masjid's in Bradford are Barelwi Masjid's and the biggest Masjid which is down the main road not far from my house is a Barelwi Masjid, the prophecy about big Masjid's but the people will be devoid of guidance has come true. All the Islam channels on Sky are also dominated by Barelwi's, Ummah Channel, Noor TV, Madani Channel, all Barelwi channels, only PeaceTV, Islam Channel and Iqra TV which you can really watch without hearing someone do Dhikr of 'Allahu Allahu' for half an hour.

do u live near hanafi masjid? that means u go masjid quba right? i go there too. u must have seen me but dont know me

[katespepach]

Well, there is not much you can do when 60% of the Masjid's in Bradford are Barelwi Masjid's and the biggest Masjid which is down the main road not far from my house is a Barelwi Masjid, the prophecy about big Masjid's but the people will be devoid of guidance has come true. All the Islam channels on Sky are also dominated by Barelwi's, Ummah Channel, Noor TV, Madani Channel, all Barelwi channels, only PeaceTV, Islam Channel and Iqra TV which you can really watch without hearing someone do Dhikr of 'Allahu Allahu' for half an hour.

everytime i drive past the masjid that they are building in BD5 opposite fitness first i shake my head in despair.

i remember that they bought that land time ago at least about 15 years ago. dont know if its true or not but we got told one of their commitee guys ran off with the money so the building went on hold until now. even now it is taking ages to build. its not even complete yet and its already falling apart. the outer wall (the pink stones were imported from pak if my info is correct) is already getting mouldy and is falling apart and toppling over! the construction has been on hold now for about 6 months so it wont be long until the main building will start falling apart as well.

to save face, they have been telling people that the stones from the wall are so expensive that people are knocking them down and stealiing them. this is what barelwis are going around telling people. but the stones are still there in a pile. anyone can pick them up and carry them off, but no one wants them cheap, tacky pink stones! but these barelwis cant see the wood for the trees! its like peer maroof has cast a spell on them. flippin bunch of losers. when are they gonna wise up? idiots! they get fed a bit of samosas and pakoras and some laddus and a whole bunch of lies from their jahil peers and they fall for every lie that they get told. they all need a good slapping!

[kranfid]

I think there is no need to mock the brelvis, they've on a mission to self destruct. We should focus on our own efforts and not let others distract us from our cause. When there is a need we should rebuttal them in a cordial manner, as many of their practices are based on rituals we need not worry about their proofs being stronger.

[feeshyLew]

everytime i drive past the masjid that they are building in BD5 opposite fitness first i shake my head in despair.

i remember that they bought that land time ago at least about 15 years ago. dont know if its true or not but we got told one of their commitee guys ran off with the money so the building went on hold until now. even now it is taking ages to build. its not even complete yet and its already falling apart. the outer wall (the pink stones were imported from pak if my info is correct) is already getting mouldy and is falling apart and toppling over! the construction has been on hold now for about 6 months so it wont be long until the main building will start falling apart as well.

to save face, they have been telling people that the stones from the wall are so expensive that people are knocking them down and stealiing them. this is what barelwis are going around telling people. but the stones are still there in a pile. anyone can pick them up and carry them off, but no one wants them cheap, tacky pink stones! but these barelwis cant see the wood for the trees! its like peer maroof has cast a spell on them. flippin bunch of losers. when are they gonna wise up? idiots! they get fed a bit of samosas and pakoras and some laddus and a whole bunch of lies from their jahil peers and they fall for every lie that they get told. they all need a good slapping!

that mosque by the fitness first is brelvis? i didnt know

[kranfid]

that mosque by the fitness first is brelvis? i didnt know

I always wondered who's mosque was that as well, they've been building it for years.

[feeshyLew]

I always wondered who's mosque was that as well, they've been building it for years.

u from bradford as well?

[feeshyLew]

what about the big mosque in bradford town centre on lumb lane i think thats brelvi too

[katespepach]

what about the big mosque in bradford town centre on lumb lane i think thats brelvi too

yeah i think they are. i quite like the look of that mosque. it looks like a fortress. they spoilt it by painting the dome a cheap gold colour! i bet they got christmas deco in the mosque. this is no lie...i saw a family of barelwis buying a plastic christmas tree. this was a few weeks ago. im not saying they were buying it for crimbo....they just love cheap, tacky, colourful things

[casinobonusese]

With all due respect to the people here. I am a deobandi and I have seen both Dr Naik's organization and the Barelwis in my home city, Mumbai. I would like to say this, the Barelwis are a group of simple, misguided Muslims who still retain a lot of good in them. They are capable to understanding and listening to the truth and coming to the straight path. We must not spare any efforts in the islah of this large group of fellow Muslims. Dr Zakir and his group of ghayr muqallideen on the other hand are a really major fitna within this ummah and need to be fought at the intellectual level tooth and nail or we will see the people of Deoband leaving in large numbers and becoming people of "little" knowledge. Wasalaam.

[Mypepraipse]

Agreed but do you have a deobandi version of zakir naik who can come on and convert many hindus. I think zakir naik does a wonderful job with non-muslims but he should stay away from fiqh and muslims should be weary of taking deen from him. I mean we deobandis complain too much. in the west we have salafis like khalid yasin, yusuf estes, abu ameenah bilal phillips, abdur raheem green etc who convert many people...however from the deobandi ulema/group how many individuals actually ever do dawah to non-muslims? It is a fact. So personally I would say long may these salafis continue in their dawah to non-muslims however we should not follow them in fiqh. We should make this distinction rather than throwing fake words around...we should state that dr zakir naik is doing excellent job etc amongst the mushrikeen but we do not take fiqh from him.

[illiniastibly]

I think both brothers Abu Tamim and London786 are right in their own aspects. Zakir Naik is a major fitnah no doubt, but it's also true that hundreds of people are changing because of his speeches. It's also true that he's causing deviance among those who are already Muslims, but min haythul jama'ah we have experienced that most talks among the common ignorant-yet-educated folks about Zakir Naik go in vain, because they only see one part of his work, not the other. Unless there's a traditional aalim close, if not at-par to what Zakir Naik has, speaking out openly against his mistakes in a refutational manner would be rather harmful than beneficial.

I've listened to his speeches, that guy can't recite Qur'an properly even, and today people have started considering him "the best scholar in the world". Only some of his logical answers are good, I know if he is promoted to such high esteem, and he loses a debate,.... well, do the math. Therefore, the need is to create similar speakers from amongst our ulama insha'Allah before saying anything openly against him. Just a thought

[Dastyh]

With all due respect to the people here. I am a deobandi and I have seen both Dr Naik's organization and the Barelwis in my home city, Mumbai. I would like to say this, the Barelwis are a group of simple, misguided Muslims who still retain a lot of good in them. They are capable to understanding and listening to the truth and coming to the straight path. We must not spare any efforts in the islah of this large group of fellow Muslims. Dr Zakir and his group of ghayr muqallideen on the other hand are a really major fitna within this ummah and need to be fought at the intellectual level tooth and nail or we will see the people of Deoband leaving in large numbers and becoming people of "little" knowledge. Wasalaam.

Dear Brother,

I respect ur feeling for barelwi and deobandi. What Zakir Naik is doing is not a fitna, ok if reading and understanding Quran and telling people what is Sunnah, if you call this as fitna, then its fine. You termed Zakir Naik as Gair mukallid? WHY? Did any of the imam said follow us...? Whome did they follow? A true salafi will never say wrong abt any imam, they were correct as per the information they have... As for deobandi, I would advice your to read books written by kasim nanotvi and ashraf ali thanvi, they have written some sentences which is enough for them to be termed as kafir, if they have not repented their sins, and we dont term these people as kafir, it is said in quran, we r just re-quoting. I would advice u to read quran with meaning and find in it what is SHIRK and BIDAH according to Quran and not any barelwi or deobandi alim.. be neutral and think..Find out in Quran why did Allah termed the people of Makkah as Kafir, even though they were believing in ONENESS OF ALLAH as we do today. I am not favouring Zakir Naik... but I want you to leave zakir naik apart and try to find the answers for my questions by research and not by asking any Ulema.. Prophet said: It is obligatory for all Muslims to have knowledge of Islam ( Shariah), he didnt say that only ulema should have knowledge.. Now people say they spent life in getting in quran and hadees, so what cant they be wrong, they r also human beings, shaitan can overpower them easily. For engineering and MBBS, we spent years reading many books for one answer, cant we read just one Quran and one simple authentic hadees book, to make our duniya and akhirat.
W/salam.

[Styparty]

Prophet said: It is obligatory for all Muslims to have knowledge of Islam ( Shariah), he didnt say that only ulema should have knowledge..

Thank you brother and I mean that will all sincerity.

[illiniastibly]

Dear Brother,

I respect ur feeling for barelwi and deobandi. What Zakir Naik is doing is not a fitna, ok if reading and understanding Quran and telling people what is Sunnah, if you call this as fitna, then its fine. You termed Zakir Naik as Gair mukallid? WHY? Did any of the imam said follow us...? Whome did they follow? A true salafi will never say wrong abt any imam, they were correct as per the information they have... As for deobandi, I would advice your to read books written by kasim nanotvi and ashraf ali thanvi, they have written some sentences which is enough for them to be termed as kafir, if they have not repented their sins, and we dont term these people as kafir, it is said in quran, we r just re-quoting. I would advice u to read quran with meaning and find in it what is SHIRK and BIDAH according to Quran and not any barelwi or deobandi alim.. be neutral and think..Find out in Quran why did Allah termed the people of Makkah as Kafir, even though they were believing in ONENESS OF ALLAH as we do today. I am not favouring Zakir Naik... but I want you to leave zakir naik apart and try to find the answers for my questions by research and not by asking any Ulema.. Prophet said: It is obligatory for all Muslims to have knowledge of Islam ( Shariah), he didnt say that only ulema should have knowledge.. Now people say they spent life in getting in quran and hadees, so what cant they be wrong, they r also human beings, shaitan can overpower them easily. For engineering and MBBS, we spent years reading many books for one answer, cant we read just one Quran and one simple authentic hadees book, to make our duniya and akhirat.
W/salam.

Assalaamu alaikum,
Dear brother, please don't lead this topic away from Zakir Naik to your own misunderstandings. If you have questions about taqlid, I suggest you do some search around this forum. This topic and many of your questions have been answered and re-answered, and re-re-answered tons of time here. Since you're new here, I would sincerely suggest you do some research like you claim to be doing and please don't post off-topic issues here. Thankyou

[casinobonusese]

Agreed but do you have a deobandi version of zakir naik who can come on and convert many hindus. I think zakir naik does a wonderful job with non-muslims but he should stay away from fiqh and muslims should be weary of taking deen from him. I mean we deobandis complain too much. in the west we have salafis like khalid yasin, yusuf estes, abu ameenah bilal phillips, abdur raheem green etc who convert many people...however from the deobandi ulema/group how many individuals actually ever do dawah to non-muslims? It is a fact. So personally I would say long may these salafis continue in their dawah to non-muslims however we should not follow them in fiqh. We should make this distinction rather than throwing fake words around...we should state that dr zakir naik is doing excellent job etc amongst the mushrikeen but we do not take fiqh from him.

Salaam-e-masnoon, brother.
I thank you for your views. It has never been my intention to get into an argument with any Muslim brother, whether he be Ahl Hadith, Barelwi or Deobandi and I have never sought to create fitna in this forum.
It was also never my intention to expose the real mechanics of how Dr Zakir "converts" Hindus to Islam or how he answers questions in such detail. If you remember my post, I wrote that I had been "exposed" to both sides of the argument which means that I know the manner in which the IRF functions. I am compelled to tell you now how exactly already converted hindus are publicly "converted" by Dr Naik in his shows.

99% of those who convert in those programs are people who have converted months and years ago, most of them through coming in contact with members of the Jamat al Tablligh. They are people in need of learning, knowledge and support and are continuously in search for it. An organization and a founder known for as much fanfare as an Evangelist in India is only Zakir Naik. Such people usually come to the IRF where they are appropriated as IRF property. Properly coached and cajoled such people stand up in IRF programs and "convert" again to the religion to which they already belong.

Also please note that most of the questions asked by Muslims have been planted by the IRF itself in the audience. The people of Deoband have always been working among Muslims and non Muslims in the way of the Salaf and not the way of Christian evangelists. May I not see that day when a Deobandi stoops down to the level of Dr Zakir Naik and his organization is giving dawa'.
Wasalaam.

[Dweplyododo]

Salaam-e-masnoon, brother.
I thank you for your views. It has never been my intention to get into an argument with any Muslim brother, whether he be Ahl Hadith, Barelwi or Deobandi and I have never sought to create fitna in this forum.
It was also never my intention to expose the real mechanics of how Dr Zakir "converts" Hindus to Islam or how he answers questions in such detail. If you remember my post, I wrote that I had been "exposed" to both sides of the argument which means that I know the manner in which the IRF functions. I am compelled to tell you now how exactly already converted hindus are publicly "converted" by Dr Naik in his shows.

99% of those who convert in those programs are people who have converted months and years ago, most of them through coming in contact with members of the Jamat al Tablligh. They are people in need of learning, knowledge and support and are continuously in search for it. An organization and a founder known for as much fanfare as an Evangelist in India is only Zakir Naik. Such people usually come to the IRF where they are appropriated as IRF property. Properly coached and cajoled such people stand up in IRF programs and "convert" again to the religion to which they already belong.

Also please note that most of the questions asked by Muslims have been planted by the IRF itself in the audience. The people of Deoband have always been working among Muslims and non Muslims in the way of the Salaf and not the way of Christian evangelists. May I not see that day when a Deobandi stoops down to the level of Dr Zakir Naik and his organization is giving dawa'.
Wasalaam.

I have heard about the questions being "planted by the IRF itself in the audience" from a teacher of mine who personally knew Dr Naik quite well, long before he began appearing on TV (btw he's also a graduate of DU Deoband).


Anyway, I'm sure many converts have benefitted from his videos on the net. Although as you said Deobandi's do indeed work among both "Muslims and non Muslims the way the Salaf used to", there is nothing from them in my knowledge that is available to the whole world (via the net etc) which would appeal to non-muslims globally like things discussed by Dr Naik (and others like Yusuf Estes, Bilal Phillips etc) would (comparative reli0gion, the Quran and science, muslim/christian debates etc etc). So, in my humble opinion, what brother London786 still stands - we cant totally discredit everything that people like Zakir Naik do in terms of da'wah, weve gotta give credit where it's due, but we do not take fiqh from him. And i agree with brothers saying he probably "needs to hold his tongue" sometimes. What he says about taqleed shows he has very little knowledge of fiqh. May Allah giude us all. Ameen.

And as for what brother London said here:

do you have a deobandi version of zakir naik who can come on and convert many hindus

I think there are (deobandis who have converted many hindus, obvioulsy not in the same method as Dr Naik). Ive read about Mawlana Kaleem Siddiqui who's supposed to be really influential. And this also reminds me of a (former hindu) convert who came to a Darul Uloom in the UK a some years back. I was quite young then so cant remember much, but he did mention that he does have some organisation for da'wah and that it is very successful, iirc. It's just that they don't appear on TV and stuff, so they arent as famous.


Also brother Abu Tamim, can you please provide any evidence for your saying that most of the converts converted through contact with Tablighi Jama'at. That'd be interesting.

[casinobonusese]

Salaam 'alaykum wr wb.
I think that I should clarify some points here about my own thinking and the susceptibilities of this Muslim Nation at present which takes its examples, even subliminally from the West choosing for itself as heroes men who seem to match a Western model the most.
The most dangerous thing for our Umma which is religiously in a precarious position right now is to accept someone as good enough for da'wa, then take him on further for Islamic education, finally turning him into some sort of Guru whose opinions in anything and everything are to be followed. This is happening with a small group of under educated but extra smart Muslims in Mumbai who have turning him into an Imaam and quote him as an authority in everything. How far have the Muslims come in orphaning the Deen of their Prophet(saaws)? They abandon thousands, no millions of qualified 'ulama from hundreds of seminaries and choose to run behind someone who cannot recite a single Qur'anic verse or a single hadeeth properly. I am not talking of his lisp but his lack of knowledge of tajweed and Arabic.
The idea of benefit has to be understood properly. If one means sitting in front of a TV/Computer screen, listening to an argument in which cunning and misrepresentation is used in order to make a person of another religion uncomfortable and then patting oneself on the back for belonging to the victorious faith, then there might be some dubious benefit in this. I think that I can concede this kind of benefit from the speakers that you mentioned.
The greatest weapon in dawa is the Qur'aan and the Sunna, not standing in front of an audience and reciting verses and ahadith by rote but living, breathing and sleeping them. He whose weapons are different from these can only remain a Pop Da'ee, not a real one. (to be continued)

[MyOwnStyle]

I would like to say this, the Barelwis are a group of simple, misguided Muslims who still retain a lot of good in them. They are capable to understanding and listening to the truth and coming to the straight path.

I would not generalise this to every barelwi. I have tried it with a few people who are supposedly intelligent enough to understand that some of the practices they do are really wrong, but they would not agree to hear any word of it because they are mureeds of those Maulvis who has been practising those acts. And as long as their sheikhs have been practising those things then it is perfectly valid reason for them to do the same thing, no matter what proof you bring to them from Quran and hadith. Also, they would go a step beyond and think that you are the jahil person for not doing these things

[illiniastibly]

I have heard about the questions being "planted by the IRF itself in the audience" from a teacher of mine who personally knew Dr Naik quite well, long before he began appearing on TV (btw he's also a graduate of DU Deoband).

That's not an isolated incidence. Same is the case with most Q&A programs. One of my friends used to work in GeoTV , and he witnessed it himself. They were saying on the set "Ok, now we have a caller from Islamabad". Seems the caller from Islamabad was a staff member actually behind the set . These Q&A sessions nowadays are actually well-planned to promote a specific mind-set among the masses, and sadly, they are very successful in creating them.