[Lenny Hensley]

You Shi'ites are Kafir.

He's not even a Shi'a. He's a hadeeth rejector, i.e. kaafir.

[EmxATW5m]

Salam Alaykum,

What I have mentioned before and will mention again is that the taste of the modern world will not agree with the 'milder' punishments put forth for apostasy by some of our 'Ulama, such as expulsion or permanent imprisonment.

If we push the laws of apostasy to their extreme, we would see that the 'Ulama of Islam never thought of this matter as one were the apostate stays doing whatever he was doing previously and lives a normal life as if nothing had happened. This is what annoys the modern world-order the most about Islam, but we Muslims should be happy to emphasize that which distinguishes Islam from other systems of life out there in the world today.

[autoloanexpert]

Yes, the matter is quite clear and we should not let our opinions influence the ruling.

Whenever God and His Apostle have decided a matter, it is not for a believing man or a believing woman to claim freedom of choice insofar as they themselves are concerned: for he who [thus] rebels against God and His Apostle has already, most obviously, gone astray. [Ahzab: 36]

[glazgoR@]

Salam Alaykum,

What I have mentioned before and will mention again is that the taste of the modern world will not agree with the 'milder' punishments put forth for apostasy by some of our 'Ulama, such as expulsion or permanent imprisonment.

If we push the laws of apostasy to their extreme, we would see that the 'Ulama of Islam never thought of this matter as one were the apostate stays doing whatever he was doing previously and lives a normal life as if nothing had happened. This is what annoys the modern world-order the most about Islam, but we Muslims should be happy to emphasize that which distinguishes Islam from other systems of life out there in the world today.

Brother Defending Islam has placed this topic in the right forum.
It is NOT to discuss and debate the theory/idea and implementation of Islam.
The theory/idea and implementation canNOT be changed.

Brother BakrSulyeman said it right.


The REAL topic is the attitudes of nonMuslims in the West, in particular Britain, towards Islam.
Britain was a colonial imperial power over the Muslim world and conspired to destroy the idea and implementation of Islam throughout the world.


Britain remains a world power in the service of the American global empire.
I'm currently in the UAE where Britain has exerted its imperial power to dominate over Muslims for over a century. Today, Britain is seen as behind the scenes and running the Khaleej in the service of the American empire.
For Brits in Britain to whine about how Muslims live in Britain while doing nothing about how Brits run things, and ruin things, within Muslim countries is RAW HYPOCRICY AND IMMORALITY.


Brits have No moral or ethical right to dictate to Muslims how they should BELIEVE about Islam.
And as Muslims in Britain are NOT implementing the execution of apostates, the matter is really not open to discussion.

What SHOULD be discussed is the EVIL OF British imperiousness and how by clinging to this POWER and accepting it, agreeing with it, Brits condemn themselves to HELL and complicity in all the evils of the British empire and the current British governments.

The female questioner/pollster has a LOT to answer for by accepting the British way of life as the way of life for all humanity.

[Nurse_sero]

Instead of blaming the Brits we should rather look at ourselves brother usama. You mention that you live in the UAE. Why do Muslims nod yes sir, yes sir to every white man with blue eyes that they meet in the UAE? Why does the white man with blue eyes and blonde hair get to skip the immigration queue? Why does the white man with blue eyes and blonde hair chat a lot of rubbish and win all the lucrative contracts? Why does the white man with blue eyes and blonde hair start feeling that he is better than everybody else when in his own country (UK and the rest of Europe and America) nobody would even spit in his direction. It would be better to sort our own house first then to blame the brits. We are the people who allow these people to get away with murder. These very same people who in their homeland are nobodys get away with a lot of things in countries like the UAE. I blame the Muslims first and then the white man with blonde hair and blue eyes (sorry I'm not being racist but making a point)

[glazgoR@]

Instead of blaming the Brits we should rather look at ourselves brother usama. You mention that you live in the UAE. Why do Muslims nod yes sir, yes sir to every white man with blue eyes that they meet in the UAE? Why does the white man with blue eyes and blonde hair get to skip the immigration queue? Why does the white man with blue eyes and blonde hair chat a lot of rubbish and win all the lucrative contracts? Why does the white man with blue eyes and blonde hair start feeling that he is better than everybody else when in his own country (UK and the rest of Europe and America) nobody would even spit in his direction. It would be better to sort our own house first then to blame the brits. We are the people who allow these people to get away with murder. These very same people who in their homeland are nobodys get away with a lot of things in countries like the UAE. I blame the Muslims first and then the white man with blonde hair and blue eyes (sorry I'm not being racist but making a point)

Brother London, the original post was about the views on apostacy of Muslims in Britain. And it was posted by a nonMuslim who sought a moral stand against Muslims believing in hudud despite not practicing it.

You may not blame her for opposing Muslim viewpoints, but I stand by my posts.

The thread does not directly deal with business in the UAE. But I partially agree with you.
One can find dozens of Western columnists in the english media of the Gulf- there are arguably more Western columnists and opinion makers than Arab or Muslim columnists. And many executives are Westerners, namely British and American.
Incidently, the UAE has adopted a new Emiratization policy which seeks to replace expats with Emiratis. In fact, most Khaleej nations have adopted a nationalization policy.
The effects, however, have largely been to expel Arab expats from long held government and state runned businesses in exchange for Khaleejis. From my limited information in Abu Dhabi, most CEOs of state owned companies are Emiratis. Many expats who have been replaced and expelled are Egyptian, Sudanese, Palestinian, Syrian.

As for the trend of business contracts going to 'blonde haired, blue eyed' runned companies, I'm not sure this trend is totally accurate. Can you give some examples?

[Goseciwx]

dear brothers and sisters,

I have a genuine question/doubt about the death penalty and would appreciate if someone could help me clarify it.

If a person leaves Islam and is thus put to death, is it not like completely eliminating the chances that he could have realised his mistake and if not put to death maybe there was a chnace that he would have come back to Islam and asked for sincere forgiveness to Allah swt. If put to death, he dies as a kafir. This is a genuine doubt, not trying to create problems.

[Nurse_sero]

Brother they are expelling muslims and bringing in more blue eyed, blonde haired kuffar. The white kuffar have a right field day in many of these countries. I have personally seen some white dudes from essex, uk who don't know anything talking their way and getting massive contracts from various arab companies. My friend works in the education sector and works for a company which designs syllabuses. The company once made the mistake of sending a bengali (but born and raised in the UK) and though the guy was very intelligent and very clever etc the arab company nearly pulled out of the deal. White people with blue eyes and blonde hair are promoted well beyond their capabilities in the UAE. These same foolish people due to the yes sir, yes sir treatment they always receive then start walking around with a chip on their shoulder. Your telling me that defence contracts don't go to blue eyed, blonde haired individuals?

[Lenny Hensley]

dear brothers and sisters,

I have a genuine question/doubt about the death penalty and would appreciate if someone could help me clarify it.

If a person leaves Islam and is thus put to death, is it not like completely eliminating the chances that he could have realised his mistake and if not put to death maybe there was a chnace that he would have come back to Islam and asked for sincere forgiveness to Allah swt. If put to death, he dies as a kafir. This is a genuine doubt, not trying to create problems.

If a person does not believe in Islam anymore, he can keep it to himself. As soon as he expresses that he has left Islam, then it is a matter that affects society, not just himself. As soon as the society gets involved, that is when the hudud punishments are put into practice. The apostate is given 3 days to change his mind. Otherwise, he is put to death. The hudud punishments are in place for sins that do not merely affect an individual, but are a source of fitnah within the ummah.

[Goseciwx]

If a person does not believe in Islam anymore, he can keep it to himself. As soon as he expresses that he has left Islam, then it is a matter that affects society, not just himself. As soon as the society gets involved, that is when the hudud punishments are put into practice. The apostate is given 3 days to change his mind. Otherwise, he is put to death. The hudud punishments are in place for sins that do not merely affect an individual, but are a source of fitnah within the ummah.

I see. So the death penalty is only when a person openly proclaims that he/she has left Islam, not when done quitely. I think I can see how that will create fitnah. for clearing that up. May Alalh swt protect me and everybody from the whisperings of shaytan, ameen.

[Anypeny]

The punishment of apostasy can be carried out after proper trial according to Shariat court. There are many conditions attached to it.


Scholarly opinion:


http://www.askimam.org/fatwa/fatwa.p...39247bb10735ac




Al-Irtidaad (to renegade from Islam)

The religion of Islam is the most perfect and complete religion. The laws of Islam are flawlessly designed by Allah. These laws of Islam are for the benefit and of mankind.

Islam induces unity and always condemns division and sects.

Once a person accepts Islam, he sees its beauty and perfection. If after seeing the beauty of Islam, a Muslim turns away from it, it means he turned away from perfection towards imperfection, disassociating himself from the unity of the Muslims ummah towards a way that is unacceptable by Allah.

Allah always wishes good for His servants. By one accepting Islam, he will be Insha Allah entitled to paradise. However, after accepting Islam, one turns renegade, it means he has become entitled to Jahannam (Hell). This is not what Allah wishes for His servants. To prevent more people from becoming true candidates of the fire of Hell, Allah legislated a deterrent for it, i.e. the law of execution.

This law of executing the renegade is a unanimously accepted rule according to all Muslims.

Al-Hadith

Sayyiduna Ibn Abbaas radhi allahu anhuma says: Nabi sallalahu alayhi wasallam said "Execute the one who renegades from his Deen." (Sahih al-Bukhariy Hadith6299, Sunan al-Nasaa’iy Hadith4059 edited by Shaikh Abdul Fattah Abu Ghuddah)

Sayyiduna ‘Uthmaan radhiyallahu anhu narrates hearing Nabi Sallallahu alayhi wa sallam as saying "……The one who changes his religion after accepting Islam must be executed." (Sunan al-Nasaa’iy Hadith4057 edited by Shaikh Abdul Fattah Abu Ghuddah)

Sayyiduna Abdullah radhiallahu anhu narrates Nabi Sallallahu alayhi wa sallam as saying "It is not Halaal to kill a Muslim except for 3 reason: …no.3.The one that turns away from his Deen, thereby disassociating himself from the group of Muslims."(Sahih Muslim Hadith4351 edited by Shaikh Khalil ma’moon Sheeha)

Ijma’

The one who renegades from Islam must be executed is the unanimous verdict of the sahaaba, none of them rejected it.

The unanimity of the Sahaaba on an issue is conclusive evidence of the same.

The Fuqaha (Jurists)

All the 4 Mazhabs are unanimous that a renegade must be executed if he does not revert to Islam. Hereunder are classical texts from each of the 4 Mazhabs:

Al-Hanafiyyah

Imam al-Marghinaaniy says: "If a Muslim, may Allah forbid turns away from Islam, the religion of Islam should be presented to him. If he has any doubts they should be cleared…and he should be kept under supervision for 3 days. If he reverts to Islam, he must be set free, otherwise he should be executed. (Al-Hidaya)

Allamah Ibn ‘Aabideen says: "Note well! It is unanimous that a renegade from Islam must be executed" (Rasaa’il Ibn Aabideen)

Al-Maalikiyyah

Imam Maalik says: "The one who renegades from Islam to another religion and exposes it will be asked to repent from his action. If he does not repent, he must be executed." (Al-Mu’atta lil Imam Maalik)

Al-shaafi’iyyah

Imam al-Shaafi’iy says: "One who renegades from Islam will not be left alone, either he reverts to Islam or he will be executed." (Kitab al-Umm)



Al-Hanaabilah

Allamah Ibn Qudaama al-Hanbaliy says: "All the scholars are unanimous that a renegade must be executed." (Al-Mughniy with Sharh al-Kabir Vol.10 Pg.74 Dar al-Kutub al-Ilmiyyah Beirut)

From the above it is explicitly clear that there is no leeway in the religion of Islam regarding executing a renegade from Islam.

and Allah Ta'ala Knows Best

Mufti Ebrahim Desai

[movlabk]

Salam,

I voted "no" due to this verse:

10/99 And if willed your Lord, surely (would) have believed whom (are) in the earth, all of them, together. Then will you compel the mankind until they become believers?

[Hdzcxqoi]

Bismillah Al-Rahman Al-Raheem




Brothers and Sisters;

I'm not a Scholar, or knowledgeable in Shari'ah, so my opinion's practically worthless. However, the topic of apostasy in Islam always seems to draw negative attention, particularly from secular countries.

On one hand we have Muslims saying it's fard to execute apostates, whereas on the other the Qur'an says "There is no compulsion in this religion". I don't know the context it's reffering to, so hopefully one of the Brothers or Sisters can elaborate on this inshAllah.

No, according to YOU and YOUR beliefs, they are divine laws. Many others would think otherwise.

As such, a poll is not useless.

Just so you're perfectly aware, Islam is NOT the only religion that demands apostates should be executed. Why, the Roman Catholic Church were burning people at the stake for being an apostate from Catholicism under 100 years ago. In most European countries less than 100 years ago you would be killed if you renounced Christianity, or raised any doubts about Christianity's authenticity. The only reason Europe doesn't execute apostates from Christianity any more, is because they cant. Countries in Europe have separation of Church and State, which means they don't run their state accordingly to their religion. Oh, and Judaism orders the death penalty for apostates as well. However, hardly any Jews these days are actually practising Judaism in it's proper form, so that rule becomes invalid.


Just so you're aware, I'm a Revert to Islam Alhamdulillah.

I knew beforehand that if I were to ever leave Islam (may Allah ensure this never happens), I'd risk being executed. However, I believe Islam is the absolute 100% truth, and the perfect religion from God (Allah). I researched about Islam and the Aqeedah before I reverted, as I'd strongly advise anyone considering becoming a Muslim to do the same. Becoming a Muslim is NOT a light decision, it involves a lot of dedication, motivation, and study.


OVERALL: My opinion, is what is prescribed in the Qur'an. I could be very wrong here, however I feel that in a secular country you probably wouldn't be able to implement punishments accordingly to Shari'ah. However, if it occurred in a country with some form of Shari'ah in place, with official courts dedicated to authentic Islamic rulings, than yes, it would be able to happen there.


I hope I didn't bore anyone with the long response

[EmxATW5m]

Salam,

I voted "no" due to this verse:

10/99 And if willed your Lord, surely (would) have believed whom (are) in the earth, all of them, together. Then will you compel the mankind until they become believers? Where in this Verse does it say that apostates cannot be killed, and how did such a meaning come about from this Verse?

If we were to take the meaning that is being presented by this poster, there would be no Jihad at all, since the waging of Jihad and the establishment of Islamic Laws in this Earth is an indirect way of forcing both Muslims and non-Muslims to follow Islam. We could go even further and say that there would be no public Shariah rules/punishments at all if this meaning is taken, since these rules are a means of applying indirect pressure for all the Muslims to follow Islam.

So we know that this is not the correct meaning. Rather, what is obvious is that the Verse mentions that the true power and force for anyone to do anything is from Allah, and that no one, not even the Prophet (SAW) has any independent 'power' or 'will' apart from Allah. (This is what is mentioned in Tafsir ar-Razi, if there is something wrong in the translation, etc., someone can bring this up Insha Allah).

In any case, we would need

[beonecenry]

I am saying with the full realization that I could have come under the threat of execution in a shariah-implemented Islamic state had I been tried and found guilty of the same under its laws. Still, I fully support the death penalty for apostates of Islam under shariah laws in an Islamic state. People can of course make a show of repenting and falsely profess faith in Islam while not so in their hearts and escape execution under shariah (if they so choose); or they can die.

And I am also fully aware that many non-Muslims and even secularized Muslims will find death penalty for apostasy barbaric. I am not interested in what the non-Muslim or the secularized Muslim thinks or wants changed about Allah’s laws, as their very model of logic is flawed and their social rhetoric for protection of apostates is based on illegitimate sources.

Non-Muslim states even practice the death penalty for crimes like murder and terrorism. But I do not find those crimes as reprehensible as rejecting Allah after an individual has been given the chance to understand and live Islam as a Muslim. And if crimes like murder or terrorism merit death penalty, then certainly I find that apostates merit the death penalty for they betray a) the pre-existence covenant taken with Allah when all souls concurred that He is our Lord and b) the Islamic state (which by its nature will require adherence to its laws—the divine and the secular).

Masha'Allah.

Contrary to what many might think, the law ordering apostates to be put to death is a mercy to the apostates themselves, for Allah only wills punishment hastened for those on the earth whom Allah will think to show some leniency in the hereafter. In fact, to be an apostate on earth and not be punished for this high crime on the earth is the worst imaginable condition for the apostate—for they will suffer such punishment for the high crime in the hereafter that they would themselves rather that they been executed over and over again on this earth rather than to suffer the myriad punishments of the damned in hellfire.

The Prophet (SAW) said: “When Allah wishes good for His slave, He hastens to bring about his punishment in this world, and if He does not wish good for him, He withholds the punishment until he is dealt with for his sin on the Day of Resurrection” (Tirmidhi).

Respected sister, I may have misunderstood your post, but I fail to follow your reasoning here.

The issue of being punished with a hadd penalty in this world as a way not to get punished (insha'Allah) in the Hereafter is for sinner Muslims who commit one of those crimes for which a hadd punishment in prescribed.
But here we're talking apostate kuffar, who will thus be punished also in the Hereafter; since they are kuffar, they will dwell in the Hellfire forever, so it's not matter of being punished "either in this life or in the Hereafter".

Or have I misunderstood your post and you were just pointing towards some kind of "leniency" in their punishment in the Hereafter, which will still be the Hellfire forever? If that was the case, it would be a different issue, although I've personally never heard/read anything in this regards.

And Allah knows best.

Wassalam.

[ZwHRoTTn]

According to sharia, yes.

[beonecenry]

Where in this Verse does it say that apostates cannot be killed, and how did such a meaning come about from this Verse?

If we were to take the meaning that is being presented by this poster, there would be no Jihad at all, since the waging of Jihad and the establishment of Islamic Laws in this Earth is an indirect way of forcing both Muslims and non-Muslims to follow Islam. We could go even further and say that there would be no public Shariah rules/punishments at all if this meaning is taken, since these rules are a means of applying indirect pressure for all the Muslims to follow Islam.

So we know that this is not the correct meaning. Rather, what is obvious is that the Verse mentions that the true power and force for anyone to do anything is from Allah, and that no one, not even the Prophet (SAW) has any independent 'power' or 'will' apart from Allah. (This is what is mentioned in Tafsir ar-Razi, if there is something wrong in the translation, etc., someone can bring this up Insha Allah).

In any case, we would need

Brother, these people are agents of destruction of Islam.

The whole idea of rejecting Ahadith is caused by they feeling "embarassed" by clear rulings as Jihad, Hudud, etc. which are clearly expressed in the ahadith but that they kuffar masters don't agree with.

So, in order to pave the way to the consolidation of the kuffar's dominion of Islamic lands and minds, they try to get rid of ahadith for two reasons:
-getting rid of "embarassing rules" the west doesn't like.
-making it possible to "interpret" the Qur'an as they wish, since they don't accept the ahadith concerning its exegesis. And thus you will read all their non-sensical "interpretations" regarding ayat as "la ikraha fi-d-Din", ayat on poligamy, and so on.

DIY Islam for the sake of their kuffar masters.

[Obebtetibre]

Bismillah Al-Rehman Al-Raheem

Assalam-Alaikum Brother Umar_Italy:

for your question.

Brother, I am not saying the unbelievers or the apostates will not be punished, for they will. What I am saying is that both the believers and the unbelievers are better off experiencing difficulties in this world. However, for the believer at least, we know that the lack of difficulties can also perhaps mean mercy and forgiveness from Allah on this earth and the hereafter.

Allah does not forgive disbelief, however.

As you and others know, many apostates have since their apostasy become famous in the West. Seeing the patent condition of this type of unbeliever, many Muslims question why Allah did not immediately deliver them the punishment due. The answer is that Allah is giving them more time, more leeway to commit blasphemies and other crimes on earth as an apostate to give them the taste of the severest punishment in the hereafter. This is not a good condition for any apostate.

If, however, Allah does punish an apostate on this earth by Shariah-court-ordered execution because nothing happens without the will of Allah, the punishment for him/her is not lifted in the hereafter but there is every chance that Allah will not punish the person as severely in the hereafter but only as compared to the one whom Allah did give leeway to commit more crimes on earth so that that individual could be punished more severely and in varieties of ways in hellfire.

No, Brother, according to the best of my knowledge, all disbelievers will be punished for their disbelief, not because Allah is not merciful but because the disbeliever will have earned hellfire for infinity for disobeying the One who is Infinite.

I hope that clarifies what I am saying; also, Brother, what I write is often from lectures or books but usually informed by sources. However, while I do not always recall all of what I heard where or when, I know I heard something similar in a lecture online.

And Allah knows best.

If I have said anything that is good and true, it is from Allah, and anything other than that is my own mistake.

[movlabk]

Where in this Verse does it say that apostates cannot be killed, and how did such a meaning come about from this Verse?

It says you can't compel anyone from mankind to believe. Since Muslims are members of mankind, you can't compel them to believe either. A death penalty for an apostate would serve as a compulsion to believe (at least outwardly).

[griddle]

In the US the punishment for the offence of desertion at the time of war is (drum roll) DEATH! because you are committing a crime against the state.
(I know only 1 person has been sentenced to death since the civil war... but the law still stands)

If there was an Islamic state then yes there will be death penalty for apostates (I totally agree with it) because if you leave the religion of Allah you are not just committing a crime against the state but you are committing a crime against the prophets of god and GOD himself!

Apostates deserve a punishment worse than death.... which they will also receive.

So why are Muslims barbaric and not the U.S?