[glasscollector]

AoA brothers and sisters....Today i pasted this new thread despite of the fact that a lot of threads are already present in here and there was absolutely No need to create another pertaining to this subject..

But i felt it was absolutely necessary because most of the content pertaining to this subject in other threads was either incomplete or has a lot of misconceptions..I 'll post here one by one and do correct me if i am wrong..May Allah guide us all on the right path and award us all for our true intentions Ameen..

I would also request Mods not to delete or close this thread as i think it is highly of importance to many members of this thread. Thank you

1) Hazir O Nazir

Hazir O Nazir means omnipresent .Being physically present @ more than one place at a given time...Or everywhere to be precise...

Now i have seen a lot of my deobandi brothers/sisters in this forum refuting the brelvis or quoting what they say..i request you to use the search feature or google linking to this site to see what i am talking about...i am not here to say whether the brelvis are right or wrong but the reason i am here is because i found serious issues with the aqeedah of some deobandi brothers of mine with in this forum ...( you can use search feature or google linking back to this site please)...

what we understand from what the brelvis say is that Hazrat Mohammad (p.b.u.h) is hazir o nazir and has the ability of being at more than one place or everywhere at a given time.....and then we accuse the brelvis of shirk....verily our refutation is entirely wrong....Most of the deobandi brothers here say that brelvis attribute Hazrat Mohammad (p.b.u.h) the attributes of the Creator thus contributing to shirk....some of the people here say that only Allah can be hazir o nazir or omnipresent....

to be concise what i am emphasizing about is that According to the correct ashari/maturdi aqeedah Allah is NOT omnipresent i.e being present everywhere physically at a given time...so those brothers who accuse the brelvi brothers of shirk regarding the issue of Hazir o nazir need serious help with their aqeedah ..Because

Allah is NOT everywhere physically (not hazir o nazir)
Allah is Every where by HIS Knowledge.
Allah is NOT confined to TIME and SPACE.

so even if brelvis quote that Holy Prophet (p.b.u.h) is Hazir O nazir that is he is physically everywhere (although i have studied vastly with regard to this subject and when they say hazir o nazir they mean something entirely different) the opponents CAN'T Accuse them of Shirk as Allah is Not present Physically everywhere..the word omnispresent is Not in Quran....Allah existed when nothing existed ...He is Absolute and Eternal..and Not confined to place,direction,space,time,shape.He is Not Part of the Creation...This is the correct ashari/maturdi aqeedah which the brelvis/deobandi brothers of mine have....

This whole issue was pointed out to me by some of my deobandi and brelvi friends...I thank Allah for making it quite clear...

2) Hadith ?

Can someone post the hadith and verify the authenticity regarding hazrat Mohammad (p.b.u.h) ability to witness our deeds whilst in the grave...



Thank you brothers and sisters and do correct me if i am wrong ..
May Allah guide us all..Ameen

[leadmoffer]

AoA brothers and sisters....Today i pasted this new thread despite of the fact that a lot of threads are already present in here and there was absolutely No need to create another pertaining to this subject..

But i felt it was absolutely necessary because most of the content pertaining to this subject in other threads was either incomplete or has a lot of misconceptions..I 'll post here one by one and do correct me if i am wrong..May Allah guide us all on the right path and award us all for our true intentions Ameen..

I would also request Mods not to delete or close this thread as i think it is highly of importance to many members of this thread. Thank you

1) Hazir O Nazir

Hazir O Nazir means omnipresent .Being physically present @ more than one place at a given time...Or everywhere to be precise...

Now i have seen a lot of my deobandi brothers/sisters in this forum refuting the brelvis or quoting what they say..i request you to use the search feature or google linking to this site to see what i am talking about...i am not here to say whether the brelvis are right or wrong but the reason i am here is because i found serious issues with the aqeedah of some deobandi brothers of mine with in this forum ...( you can use search feature or google linking back to this site please)...

what we understand from what the brelvis say is that Hazrat Mohammad (p.b.u.h) is hazir o nazir and has the ability of being at more than one place or everywhere at a given time.....and then we accuse the brelvis of shirk....verily our refutation is entirely wrong....Most of the deobandi brothers here say that brelvis attribute Hazrat Mohammad (p.b.u.h) the attributes of the Creator thus contributing to shirk....some of the people here say that only Allah can be hazir o nazir or omnipresent....

to be concise what i am emphasizing about is that According to the correct ashari/maturdi aqeedah Allah is NOT omnipresent i.e being present everywhere physically at a given time...so those brothers who accuse the brelvi brothers of shirk regarding the issue of Hazir o nazir need serious help with their aqeedah ..Because

Allah is NOT everywhere physically (not hazir o nazir)
Allah is Every where by HIS Knowledge.
Allah is NOT confined to TIME and SPACE.

so even if brelvis quote that Holy Prophet (p.b.u.h) is Hazir O nazir that is he is physically everywhere (although i have studied vastly with regard to this subject and when they say hazir o nazir they mean something entirely different) the opponents CAN'T Accuse them of Shirk as Allah is Not present Physically everywhere..the word omnispresent is Not in Quran....Allah existed when nothing existed ...He is Absolute and Eternal..and Not confined to place,direction,space,time,shape.He is Not Part of the Creation...This is the correct ashari/maturdi aqeedah which the brelvis/deobandi brothers of mine have....

This whole issue was pointed out to me by some of my deobandi and brelvi friends...I thank Allah for making it quite clear...

2) Hadith ?

Can someone post the hadith and verify the authenticity regarding hazrat Mohammad (p.b.u.h) ability to witness our deeds whilst in the grave...



Thank you brothers and sisters and do correct me if i am wrong ..
May Allah guide us all..Ameen

Just one query brother. Did you say that Allah is not hazir nazir?

[glasscollector]

one has to be quite careful when using this terminology....most of the time its meant with the meaning *physically everywhere* or being physically @ more than one places....if this definition is used then Allah is Not omnipresent/haazir nazir....Allah is EVERYWHERE BY HIS KNOWLEDGE....I made it quite clear in the first post... ...hope it answers the question....if this definition is kept in mind while using the term for Allah then one should be warned as ALLAH is NOT PART of the creation...

[glasscollector]

For further clarification I would like to quote

the term hazir o nazir used when attributing to Allah is only feasible if the intention is to mean that He knows everything that happens everywhere...otherwise it should be avoided....Omnipresent word is not in Quran in the sense He is physically everywhere...this is in accordance with the ashari/maturdi aqeedah

the main objective of this post however is to make it as clear as water that many of my brothers here while refuting the hazir o nazir concept of brelvis labeled them as the ones committing shirk....as if my brothers believe that Allah exists everywhere physically which is indeed a wrong belief....and is not coherent with ashari/maturdi aqeedah the foundation of both deobandis/brelvis





Imam Abu Hanifah said in his book from his school al¬Wasiyyah: " ... and He is the Preserver of the Throne and of other than the Throne without needing it. Had He been in need, He would not have the power to create the world and to manage and preserve it. Moreover, had He been in a place needing to sit and rest before creating the Throne, where was Allah, then?" That is the question: 'where was Allah' would have applied to Him, which is impossible.
Also, in his book, Al-Fiqh al-Absat, Imam Abu Hanifah said: "Allah existed eternally and there was no place; He existed before creating the creation. He existed and there was not a place, a creation or a thing; and He is the Creator of everything. He who says 'I do not know if my Lord is in the heavens or on the earth, is a unbeliever. Also is an unbeliever whoever says that 'He is on the Throne and I do not know whether the Throne is in the heaven or on the earth'."

[WaysletlyLene]

The Deobandi belief which is the same belief as the Salaf is that Allah is omniscient. They do not have the beliefs of the Jahmiyyah nor do they commit ghuloo in attributing to Rasulullah that which he himself did not state that he possessed.

This is it nothing more and nothing less.

[AngelinaTheElf]

I'm confused

omniscient - knowledge of everything?

omnipresent - physically being everywhere?

I know Allah swt is not physically everywhere but saying he can't be present everywhere (if he so wishes to) does that not put limitation on him as a God?

How can out Prophet pbuh be omnipresent? Anything from Quran to support this?

[WaysletlyLene]

Sister to limit confusion please udnerstand the following:

Allah is omniscient which means He has full knowledge over everything. We do not put limitations on Him however we absolve Him of being in need of anything or being compared to anything which is an injunction from the Qur'aan in which Allah states, "laysa kamithlihi shay" (there is nothing like unto Him).

It was the belief of a deviant group namely the Jahmiyyah who considered Allah to be a part of His Creation.

I hope this clarifies the matter and May Allah bless us all with yaqeen and sound aqeedah.

May Allah forgive me if I have said anything that is wrong.

[Teareerah]

...
2) Hadith ?
Can someone post the hadith and verify the authenticity regarding hazrat Mohammad (p.b.u.h) ability to witness our deeds whilst in the grave...
..

Let see following hadith first and answer following questions.

Bukhari: Volume 8, Book 76, Number 584:
Narrated Anas:
The Prophet said, "Some of my companions will come to me at my Lake Fount, and after I recognize them, they will then be taken away from me, whereupon I will say, 'My companions!' Then it will be said, 'You do not know what they innovated (new things) in the religion after you."

Questions
1. If our prophet has ability to see our deeds whilst in the grave then why Angle will say You do not know what they innovated (new things) in the religion after you?.
2. Does it mean our prophet has not ability to see unseen by this word of angle You do not know what they innovated (new things) in the religion after you?

Hope ur answers will clear many confusions!

[Teareerah]

I'm confused

omniscient - knowledge of everything?

omnipresent - physically being everywhere?

I know Allah swt is not physically everywhere but saying he can't be present everywhere (if he so wishes to) does that not put limitation on him as a God?

How can out Prophet pbuh be omnipresent? Anything from Quran to support this?

Sister hayya

No need to be confused. Always depend on Quran and Authentic hadiths for Aqeeda matter. Some people say our prophet is omniscient!, plz ask them following questions.

1. Did it require any witness when our prophet used to judge between persons?
2. Why angles convey salam to our prophet :saw :'s grave?

[Avaindimik]

AoA brothers and sisters....Today i pasted this new thread despite of the fact that a lot of threads are already present in here and there was absolutely No need to create another pertaining to this subject..

But i felt it was absolutely necessary because most of the content pertaining to this subject in other threads was either incomplete or has a lot of misconceptions..I 'll post here one by one and do correct me if i am wrong..May Allah guide us all on the right path and award us all for our true intentions Ameen..

I would also request Mods not to delete or close this thread as i think it is highly of importance to many members of this thread. Thank you

1) Hazir O Nazir

Hazir O Nazir means omnipresent .Being physically present @ more than one place at a given time...Or everywhere to be precise...

Now i have seen a lot of my deobandi brothers/sisters in this forum refuting the brelvis or quoting what they say..i request you to use the search feature or google linking to this site to see what i am talking about...i am not here to say whether the brelvis are right or wrong but the reason i am here is because i found serious issues with the aqeedah of some deobandi brothers of mine with in this forum ...( you can use search feature or google linking back to this site please)...

what we understand from what the brelvis say is that Hazrat Mohammad (p.b.u.h) is hazir o nazir and has the ability of being at more than one place or everywhere at a given time.....and then we accuse the brelvis of shirk....verily our refutation is entirely wrong....Most of the deobandi brothers here say that brelvis attribute Hazrat Mohammad (p.b.u.h) the attributes of the Creator thus contributing to shirk....some of the people here say that only Allah can be hazir o nazir or omnipresent....

to be concise what i am emphasizing about is that According to the correct ashari/maturdi aqeedah Allah is NOT omnipresent i.e being present everywhere physically at a given time...so those brothers who accuse the brelvi brothers of shirk regarding the issue of Hazir o nazir need serious help with their aqeedah ..Because

Allah is NOT everywhere physically (not hazir o nazir)
Allah is Every where by HIS Knowledge.
Allah is NOT confined to TIME and SPACE.

so even if brelvis quote that Holy Prophet (p.b.u.h) is Hazir O nazir that is he is physically everywhere (although i have studied vastly with regard to this subject and when they say hazir o nazir they mean something entirely different) the opponents CAN'T Accuse them of Shirk as Allah is Not present Physically everywhere..the word omnispresent is Not in Quran....Allah existed when nothing existed ...He is Absolute and Eternal..and Not confined to place,direction,space,time,shape.He is Not Part of the Creation...This is the correct ashari/maturdi aqeedah which the brelvis/deobandi brothers of mine have....

This whole issue was pointed out to me by some of my deobandi and brelvi friends...I thank Allah for making it quite clear...

2) Hadith ?

Can someone post the hadith and verify the authenticity regarding hazrat Mohammad (p.b.u.h) ability to witness our deeds whilst in the grave...



Thank you brothers and sisters and do correct me if i am wrong ..
May Allah guide us all..Ameen

Salaaam
I have been on this forum for a while but haven't started posting until recently.
I am a layman and some of the people on here have so much knowledge MashAllah.
I hope I can require a fraction of theirs in my lifetime InshAllah.
What I don't understand is the different sects/movement whatever you want to call them all have difference in their Aqeeda, Im not going to say who is right and who is wrong..that's not for you and I to say..Allah knows best so lets let Allah Judge..What I don't understand is Aqeedah is not something which should be discussed by laymen on forums in this depths (the basics hmm probably ok to), I have not seen a single person change their Aqeedah on these forums and don't understand why people keep posting things which Scholars have disputed for over 100's of years and if they are still arguing/bashing each other the chances of laymen on forums having an impact on this is very minimal so why watse your time with these particular issues.
If you are coming to forums to learn Aqeedah then your going about it the wrong way and if your coming to forums to teach Aqeedah then you are also going about it the wrong way.
(apologies if I have offended anyone with the term Laymen im sure you all know how it was intended).

[teridbruse]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7IFOzBRTWiw

[leadmoffer]

"so even if brelvis quote that Holy Prophet (p.b.u.h) is Hazir O nazir that is he is physically everywhere (although i have studied vastly with regard to this subject and when they say hazir o nazir they mean something entirely different)"

bro.
Why don't you tell us what the Barelvis mean when they say hazir o nazir?

[NETvoyne]

I think the OP's intention has been misunderstood. What he is saying is, sometimes when refuting Barelwis, people end up saying something that is also incorrect.

The Barelwis say Rasulullah (saw) has "hazir-nazir", being everywhere at once.

Some Deobandi-sympathizers may respond by saying, that is an attribute of Allah (being everywhere), which is *also wrong* in Ash'ari, Maturidi and Athari.

The OP is only saying, "Be careful when refuting!" but due to his English, is misunderstood.

[glasscollector]

AoA thank you all brothers and sisters for replying and accept my apology for not replying earlier....

well as i have told earlier in the very post i am not here to prove whether the brelvis are right or wrong....its mentioned in the very first post of mine...what i have been trying to say is summarized by brother "Aseatic" who explained it beautifully...thank you.... ....

firstly if we say that brelvis believe that Holy prophet (p.b.u.h) is hazir o nazir/omnipresent/present everywhere physically/present in more than one place....then some of my deobandi brothers here refute by saying that the brelvis are committing shirk with regard to this subject ...you can see this by searching older posts in this forum as well as other forums on the internet regarding this subject...what i wanted to say is those who accuse other of shirk with regard to this subject of hazir o nazir , have immense problems with their aqeedah as Allah is not omnipresent/present every where physically....This was the crux of my discussion....so please be aware of this fact brothers/sisters..Nothing contains Allah....

secondly i am not here to preach aqeedah i posted this because I found a flaw in the refutations and corrected it for those who can learn and fulfilled my responsibility ...the rest is up to you ....

Thirdly there was a question isn't this putting a limit to Allah?....if He wishes he can present physically everywhere....?asked by sister Haya..

well the answer to this question is multiple....first the question is wrong....because it's like saying would Allah like to limit Himself He so wishes....because the word "everywhere" refers to numerous places ...Allah is Not confined to place/time/space/shape/boundaries/directions/....

Another answer could be that one should avoid asking such questions ??why because they open a door way for being easily refuted by atheists/christians...they ask you this

1)Can Allah do every thing?
2) if you say yes..they say can He lie? why Can't He have a son then?

when trying to answer this question one has to make it clear that when one says Allah can't be present everywhere physically...he/she has to say the above notion isn't questioning Allah's power/will....


I hope I made it clear than you all....May Allah bless us all....

[glasscollector]

And please brothers and sisters forgive me if i was harsh to anyone...i only wanted to correct you or point out some of the flaws...actually i was searching this forum about the issue of Hazir O Nazir....i came across various posts from 2006-2007-2009 Example where the topic starter(brelvi) said that Hazrat Mohammad appears to be Hazir O Nazir/omnipresent explained that he is metaphorically said to present physically in more than one place or places...
then the refuter/deobandis accused them of shirk or did takfir and said that ONLY ALLAH is Hazir o nazir/omnipresent/present everywhere literally..THIS WAS WRONG..
Because both brelvi and deobandi aqeedah is ashari/maturdi...and i got a feeling that accusers mentioned above themselves believe that Allah is omnipresent although HE is Not otherwise they would not have used the word shirk or did takfir...Allah is not confined to place or places..that was the sole reason of my post...and not to hurt anybody

[20170425yuanyuan]

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