[Phassetus]

Salaams

Im looking for a detailed pro gradualism article inshallah taht refutes the otehr siders points and really goes into detail about why its not all or nothing when it comes to making improvements in the muslim world inshAllah. I googled it and it only comes up with articles accusing it of being kufr so i need to see the other side inshallah. dont worry about sect of the writer as long as it gives the evidences from qur'an and sunnah

[BitStillrhile]

Salaams

Im looking for a detailed pro gradualism article inshallah taht refutes the otehr siders points and really goes into detail about why its not all or nothing when it comes to making improvements in the muslim world inshAllah. I googled it and it only comes up with articles accusing it of being kufr so i need to see the other side inshallah. dont worry about sect of the writer as long as it gives the evidences from qur'an and sunnah

Asalam wa alikum brother

hope these help.

1. Gradualism in applying the sharia- Shaykh Yusuf Qaradawi http://www.onislam.net/english/ask-t...olice_Systems=

2. The participation of islamists in a non-islamic government- Shaykh Rashid Ghanoushi http://home.zcu.cz/~dkrizek/ISPV/tex...20Ghannusi.pdf (talks about gradualism in applying sharia also)


Not the most detailed, but hope it helps brother. With the rise of all these islamist parties across the Muslim world the question of gradualism in applying the sharia is appearing over and over, and from the little I have read, i tend to agree that gradualism is a wise and acceptable method. Allah (SWT) knows best.

wasalaam

[Phassetus]

jazak Allahu khair bro inshAllah I will read through them and I agree, gradualism appears to be the most sensible method unless there is a strong reason not to take this approach but i havent come accross such a reason as of yet. Its good taht you provided a yousuf qaradawi article actually because he is at the forefront of this type of methodlogy so would be a good choice of article to read if i want the gradualism view point

[BitStillrhile]

jazak Allahu khair bro inshAllah I will read through them and I agree, gradualism appears to be the most sensible method unless there is a strong reason not to take this approach but i havent come accross such a reason as of yet. Its good taht you provided a yousuf qaradawi article actually because he is at the forefront of this type of methodlogy so would be a good choice of article to read if i want the gradualism view point

Let me know your views on the articles inshaAllah when you read them. Yea i agree i have also yet to come across any strong arguments against this method either. Islam is a practical religion.

Yea Ive also heard that both Shaykh Yusuf Qaradawi and Shaykh Rachid Ghanoushi are prominent proponents of this method. In fact, the Shaykh Rashid article was published around 1992 (says on the link) and if you see what ennahda (he is an intellectual leader of the party) have done in Tunisia since the elections it is exactly what he advocates in this article, ie power sharing and gradual movement toward applying the sharia.

I have also read that Shaykh Ghanoushis writings have inspired the islamists in the AKP party in Turkey, and many other islamists in the region.

Regardless, I feel like this is a positive time for the ummah and the new paradigm in the middle east appears to be one of political Islam inshaAllah. The debate on whether gradualism is an acceptable method or not will be quite an interesting one, I would also be interested to read counter arguments to it if anyone has any good ones. Jus today i read this article (http://www.foreignpolicy.com/article...s_salafi_surge) which also shows the debate between the MB and al nour party in Egypt precisely on this issue (MB are proponents of gradualism, al nour are not).

Allah (SWT) knows best!
Ws

[Phassetus]

how do proponents of gradualism reply to hizb ut tahrirs well known point taht the prophet never took teh position of king over makka. they make this point in refutation of democratic participation. Id like to know how this poins dealt with.

Those two articles were really good jazak allahu khair. i was fascinated to read the book of the founder of an nahda, really shows his understanding of the need of islamic governance. i hope the western media dont discover this book lol or an nahda will be piblic enemy #1 in the western media

[Phassetus]

it really irritates me when i read western newspapers with western people commenting on how much of a disaster it is that brutal dictators were removed and now the pesky population are choosing islamic governments. Get teh hell out of our lands and shut about about yoru stupid democracy. Hypocrites

[BitStillrhile]

how do proponents of gradualism reply to hizb ut tahrirs well known point taht the prophet never took teh position of king over makka. they make this point in refutation of democratic participation. Id like to know how this poins dealt with.

Those two articles were really good jazak allahu khair. i was fascinated to read the book of the founder of an nahda, really shows his understanding of the need of islamic governance. i hope the western media dont discover this book lol or an nahda will be piblic enemy #1 in the western media

how do proponents of gradualism reply to hizb ut tahrirs well known point taht the prophet never took teh position of king over makka. they make this point in refutation of democratic participation. Id like to know how this poins dealt with.

Those two articles were really good jazak allahu khair. i was fascinated to read the book of the founder of an nahda, really shows his understanding of the need of islamic governance. i hope the western media dont discover this book lol or an nahda will be piblic enemy #1 in the western media

I don't know how they respond to that point, but i don't really know how that fact means we can't participate in the system for the collective beneft of the ummah first, and society in general second.

lol i don't think anyone can deny the new reality of islamist rule in the Muslim world. Alhumdulilah. Lets hope that these leaders can bring economic prosperity like the AKP have done so that economic strength carries through to increased political clout, again, like the case of Turkey. I am really interested in legitimate styles of islamic governance, especially given different circumstances around the world and unique political/economic histories of different countries.

[BitStillrhile]

it really irritates me when i read western newspapers with western people commenting on how much of a disaster it is that brutal dictators were removed and now the pesky population are choosing islamic governments. Get teh hell out of our lands and shut about about yoru stupid democracy. Hypocrites

There are a number of positive articles in the western press regarding islamist rule in the Muslim world. Many people in the west only have an idea of islamic rule based on what propoganda they have heard or distorted coverage on islam in general they have been fed. Ignorance really breed animosity.

The thing is, if the Muslim governments coming to power can bribng about positive results in society (economic improvements most importantly) and then also create an islamist bloc in the region, we as an Ummah will have much more leverage on the international scene geopolitically and of course with all this will come the opportunity to show what living in an islamic (or partially islamic for now) society is really like.

The benefits will no doubt attract many to Islam inshaAllah.
Again, im cautiously optimistic about this period of time for the Muslim world, especially as we as an ummah have not had a chance to live under our governance structures in so long.

Allah (swt) is the one who gives victory.

[BitStillrhile]

I think it is worth also reading up on Mufti Abdullah Bin Bayas work on it.
I prosume there are similar work by Maulna Madani (RAH) of Deoband. One point to remember fighi aqalia is in essense no more then applying age old edict not gaining acceptance in general by the classical scholars. I think Shaikh Ramadhan Buti also wrote something in responce to this.

Salaam wa alaikum

Have you got any links or references on this topic by the above scholars? Would appreciate it greatly.

ws

[Phassetus]

brother brother786 i think we are thinking along teh same lines.

I believe the GCC is the way forwards as the bloc and it shoudl invovle GCC countries plus somalia, egypt, tunisia, libya, turkey, malayisa, morocco, jordan, syria when assad goes inshallah may allah disfigure his face, and any other muslim country who still has some respect for islam.

Jordan morocco and egypt are already in talks to join the GCC and they have already developed quite a bit of infrasture including an electricity grid taht goes to all the GCC countries, a unified armed force, a plan for a single currency, a rail goign to the different states, unified economy, freedom of travel in between GCC states and more.


Id like an answer against teh ht arguement though because they say if we could do anti islamic governing for the benefit of islam the prophet was offered to become king of arabia abd turned it down because he would only settle for islamic rule. I need a refutation of the anti gradualist approach basically inshallah, a detailed one is much preferred. This is an exciting time with many great prospects but in my heart i dont feel fully content to support the efforts until i see the full evidences for and against gradualism

also could you provide links to positive western articles. I agree this is an exciting time that holds a lot of promise and potential inshallah and we should be cautious in our optimism but hopeful to what the future holds inshallah

[BitStillrhile]

brother brother786 i think we are thinking along teh same lines.

I believe the GCC is the way forwards as the bloc and it shoudl invovle GCC countries plus somalia, egypt, tunisia, libya, turkey, malayisa, morocco, jordan, syria when assad goes inshallah may allah disfigure his face, and any other muslim country who still has some respect for islam.

Jordan morocco and egypt are already in talks to join the GCC and they have already developed quite a bit of infrasture including an electricity grid taht goes to all the GCC countries, a unified armed force, a plan for a single currency, a rail goign to the different states, unified economy, freedom of travel in between GCC states and more.


Id like an answer against teh ht arguement though because they say if we could do anti islamic governing for the benefit of islam the prophet was offered to become king of arabia abd turned it down because he would only settle for islamic rule. I need a refutation of the anti gradualist approach basically inshallah, a detailed one is much preferred. This is an exciting time with many great prospects but in my heart i dont feel fully content to support the efforts until i see the full evidences for and against gradualism

also could you provide links to positive western articles. I agree this is an exciting time that holds a lot of promise and potential inshallah and we should be cautious in our optimism but hopeful to what the future holds inshallah

Like you i look forward to contributions from others on this thread insha’Allah. I would like to see what Shaykh Bin Bayyah has said on the issue but don’t know where to look!

Here are a few articles from the Western press regarding political islam and not necessarily positive, but equally not so negative. I guess when i said there is a lot of positive stuff in the western press i just meant that you can find a whole spectrum of opinion regarding these issues.

http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/ed...gent_arab.html
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011...ed-arab-spring
http://www.businessweek.com/news/201...aj-mishra.html
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...ing-west-fears

But anyway, as Muslims we don’t require the approval of non Muslims but there are many non-Muslims who are genuinely ignorant about our worldview and way of life, including governance structures, so i guess these articles and similar ones go some way in redressing the anti Muslim propaganda that is out there.

Interesting but remember the GCC nations may not be so concerned with Islamic unity, Allah knows best i shouldnt assume. However, I would instead hope that Turkey would take the lead as they are in the position to now (regional super power) and also with the historical importance of Turkey in the history of the Ummah, it makes me feel like it would be quite apt lol

Anyway, like you say, caution is the key, and we should pray that Allah SWT helps the new Muslim leaders in improving the condition and status of the Ummah insha’Allah.
ws

[BitStillrhile]

I think you need to go to their webiste. Some are written in arabic.

ill see what i can find. If anyone else finds relevant articles/links please share. I do think this is an important issue for the Ummah especially given the current political situation and changing tides in the Muslim world. Very relevant.

ws

[Phassetus]

just one clarification, im not saying GCC should take the lead, im not saying turkey should take the lead, im saying they all need to take the lead as a bloc inshAllah.

In anotehr thread i posted a lot of links showing the imporvements in cooperation between muslim lands and that includes turkey and the GCC who are cooperating well mashAllah together and seem to be working well together. Turkey has moved away from the shia countries and western countries alhamdulillah and is working with otehr sunni countries in economics etc. turkey is invovled in teh developm,ent of the f-35, americas latest fighter jet, they have a lot to offer mashALlah, as do the GCC. neitehr are perfect but both are good given our situation

[BitStillrhile]

just one clarification, im not saying GCC should take the lead, im not saying turkey should take the lead, im saying they all need to take the lead as a bloc inshAllah.

In anotehr thread i posted a lot of links showing the imporvements in cooperation between muslim lands and that includes turkey and the GCC who are cooperating well mashAllah together and seem to be working well together. Turkey has moved away from the shia countries and western countries alhamdulillah and is working with otehr sunni countries in economics etc. turkey is invovled in teh developm,ent of the f-35, americas latest fighter jet, they have a lot to offer mashALlah, as do the GCC. neitehr are perfect but both are good given our situation

Thanks for the clarification brother, I see what your saying and i agree with the idea of muslim cooperation. InshaAllah a strong islamic bloc in the near future with real geopolitical and economic clout is not unrealistic. I also hope muslim unity would include our shia brothers, as i hold the view, as with some scholars, that twelver shias are within the folds of islam (albeit with major deviancies), especially since they pronounce the shahada and face the same qibla. Therefre a Muslim world / political bloc which includes both sunni and shia countries would be good (im pretty sure this is a minority view on this forum!)

But anyway, that maybe a different discussion altogether, and not one this thread is intended for!
May Allah SWT unite us.

Ws

[Phassetus]

one lats thing before i disappear.

the shia discussion is an important one. its nopt about if they are kafir. its about if they are trustworthy. what is their trackrecord with ahlas sunnah in terms of political cooperation?

[BitStillrhile]

one lats thing before i disappear.

the shia discussion is an important one. its nopt about if they are kafir. its about if they are trustworthy. what is their trackrecord with ahlas sunnah in terms of political cooperation?

I really do not know

[mincarlie.frymyer]

Bismillah
Br. Dawud,
Have a look at the course organised by these people. They are by far the best as they involve academics in relevent field. That means muslim and non muslim. I have attended one of their course on history of Bengle.
If you want affordable and specialist course, this is the place to be. I remember they organised a course on Khilfat in early 90s where HT were running muck.

http://islamiccourses.org/


Next course is 1.history of Ezypt 2. Ummaiyd rule 3. Maqasaid of Shariah of Imam Shabti (RAH).

AN INTRODUCTION TO THE MASNAVI OF RUMI

By Shaykh Dr M Akram Nadwi [ The Oxford Centre for Islamic Studies]

Saturday 17th March 2012, 9am - 5pm
The Yunus Emre Centre, 10 Mapple St, London W1T 5HA [Very close to Euston Square Station]

This short intensive course will briefly look at:
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Reflections and lessons to be drawn.


Tickets online £20 (students / unemployed) / £25 (employed)
BOOKING DEADLINE: MONDAY 5TH FEBRUARY 2012 after which prices to £30

[Phassetus]

jazak Allahu khair bro. THe history course and the rumi course both look good lol, inshAllah i will try to get invovled in both

[invest7manager]

Gradualism is different from transition.

Gradualism is a form of thought that humans have the knowledge and authority to determine the presentation of the Sovereignty of Allah.

Transition is the process which naturally occurs when the intention and effort is present, but all the circumstances are not yet in place.

I make a crude comparison with conversion to Islam.
Some claim those interested in Islam MUST attend classes and study Islam indepth before conversion. To them, they claim authority to determine various classes and various aspects of Islamic knowledge are necessary before someone becomes Muslim.
On what authority to they claim this?

On the other side are those who see that conversion to Islam does NOT require months of classes and such. Rather, conversion is a necessary step for all humanity regardless of their level of knowledge about Islam. And as long as one has a functioning knowledge of the concept of Shahada, thereby knowing what one is doing, then conversion should be immediate and not take a process of human labor. And most important is conversion after which Muslims may obtain Belief/Iman which takes time for anyone, regardless.

Transition is the convert's process of gaining Iman, learning, culturing in Islam after conversion. This is up to the individual and Allah.
Gradualism is the processing of people before they convert to Islam, which may or may not actually result in conversion. This is overwhelming place authority in people's hands.

As a convert to Islam, I have seen Muslim organizations form entire departments for teaching those "interested in Islam" but have not yet converted, as if teaching about Womens Issues in Islam or Minority Rights are part of the Hudaa.

And like it or not, but there is NO easy gradualization to Islam. the enemies of Islam will take every step against the resurgence of Islam, including economic embargoes, murder and massacres, torture, stealing the wealth of people, false imprisonment, assault, etc. everything that previous generations experienced and worse.

And the Prophet (Saaw) set the example by refusing any form of gradualism towards Islam in Makka, when the Makkan leaders offered a period of Islamic rule, and a period of jahili rule, and so on.