[teergoBissono]

Salam Aliakum wa-rahmat allahu wa baraktu.

I need help in this subject inshalla someone can give me explanation for this.

Basically this is a debate that is going on YouTube and is causing many conflicts between muslims.

Is the punishment for apostasy execution?

The confusion comes here where the ahdeeth conflicts with the quran.

Apostasy has been mension at least 20 times in the quran non of the verses mension that the punishment for it is execution, but ahdeeth do.

HADITHS:

Bukhari (52:260) - "...The Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.' "

Bukhari (83:37) - "Allah's Apostle never killed anyone except in one of the following three situations: (1) A person who killed somebody unjustly, was killed (in Qisas,) (2) a married person who committed illegal sexual intercourse and (3) a man who fought against Allah and His Apostle and deserted Islam and became an apostate."

Bukhari (84:57) - "[In the words of] Allah's Apostle, 'Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.'"

Bukhari (89:271) - A man who embraces Islam, then reverts to Judaism is to be killed according to "the verdict of Allah and his apostle."

Bukhari (84:58) - "There was a fettered man beside Abu Muisa. Mu'adh asked, 'Who is this (man)?' Abu Muisa said, 'He was a Jew and became a Muslim and then reverted back to Judaism.' Then Abu Muisa requested Mu'adh to sit down but Mu'adh said, 'I will not sit down till he has been killed. This is the judgment of Allah and His Apostle (for such cases) and repeated it thrice.' Then Abu Musa ordered that the man be killed, and he was killed. Abu Musa added, 'Then we discussed the night prayers'"

Bukhari (84:64-65) - "Allah's Apostle: 'During the last days there will appear some young foolish people who will say the best words but their faith will not go beyond their throats (i.e. they will have no faith) and will go out from (leave) their religion as an arrow goes out of the game. So, wherever you find them, kill them, for whoever kills them shall have reward on the Day of Resurrection.'"

QURAN:
[And say [O Muhammad]: 'The truth [has now come] you're your Sustainer: let, then, him or her who wills, believe in it, and let him or her who wills, reject it.] (Al-Kahf 18:29)

[There shall be no coercion in matters of faith.] (Al-Baqarah 2:256)

[And so, [O Prophet,] exhort them; your task is only to exhort. You can not compel them [to believe].] (Al-Ghashiyah 88:21-22)

[Thus, [O Prophet,] if they argue with you, say, "I have surrendered my whole being unto God, and [so have] all who follow me' – and ask those who have been vouchsafed revelation aforetime, as well as the unlettered people, 'Have you [too] surrendered yourselves unto Him?' And if they surrender themselves unto Him, they are on the right path; but if they turn away – behold, your duty is no more than to deliver the message: for God sees all that is in [the hearts of] His creatures.] (Aal `Imran 3:20)

[Behold, as for those who come to believe, and then deny the truth, and again come to believe, and again deny the truth, and thereafter grow stubborn in their denial of truth — God will not forgive them, nor will guide them in any way.] (An-Nisaa' 4:137)

Verily, We sent down to you [O Muhammad] the Book [Qur'an] for mankind in truth. So, whosoever goes astray, he goes astray to his own loss. And you [O Muhammad] are not a guardian over them. (Az-Zumar 39:41)

Can anyone bring me a tafsir or quran verse that proves those ahdeeth because as well know we follow the quran before the hadith.

w.salam

[libertiespana]

I don't know. I remember hearing how the Ottoman scholars in like the 16th century or so concluded that the hadiths in question are in actuality referring to those Muslims who abandon their religion and join forces against the Muslims; even though this goes against classical interpretations (apostasy has historically been considered punishable by death), I feel that following the opinion of these Ottoman scholars is perfectly acceptable. They were some of the most intelligent scholars of their time, and if they interpreted this matter in such a way, there's no reason I cannot. And it wasn't as if it was some minority opinion--it gained enough ground to be made into law.

[teergoBissono]

fair enough but akhi how can you kill when the quran does not alow you or premit you to kill?!?!?

only ahdeeth do?!

[yasalaioqe]

i think these Ayaats are about the non believers(who don't embrace Islam) not about the apsotates.
ahaadith never conflict with the quran.because ALLAH almighty says
1-وما ینطق عن الہوی ان ہو الا وحی یوحی
2-وما اتکم الرسول فخزوہ وما نہکم عنہ فانتہوا
3-قل ان کنتم تحبون اللہ فاتبعونی یحببکم اللہ
and many other examples.
so following Rasullallah is to follow Holy Quran.
i advice u to contact a reputed mufti or Aalim.u may try this question at
http://www.shariahboard.org/
http://alittehad.org/
http://www.askimam.org/

[FallJimerks]

I don't know. I remember hearing how the Ottoman scholars in like the 16th century or so concluded that the hadiths in question are in actuality referring to those Muslims who abandon their religion and join forces against the Muslims; even though this goes against classical interpretations (apostasy has historically been considered punishable by death), I feel that following the opinion of these Ottoman scholars is perfectly acceptable. They were some of the most intelligent scholars of their time, and if they interpreted this matter in such a way, there's no reason I cannot. And it wasn't as if it was some minority opinion--it gained enough ground to be made into law.

First of all. Please bring SOLID REFERENCES that these Ottoman scholars held such an opinion.

So please mention the names WITH their books and FULL context!

No secondary sources or hearsay!

[yasalaioqe]

i think these Ayaats are about the non believers(who don't embrace Islam) not about the apsotates.
ahaadith never conflict with the quran.because ALLAH almighty says
1-وما ینطق عن الہوی ان ہو الا وحی یوحی
2-وما اتکم الرسول فخزوہ وما نہکم عنہ فانتہوا
3-قل ان کنتم تحبون اللہ فاتبعونی یحببکم اللہ
and many other examples.
so following Rasullallah is to follow Holy Quran.
i advice u to contact a reputed mufti or Aalim.u may try this question at
http://www.shariahboard.org/
http://alittehad.org/
http://www.askimam.org/

[yasalaioqe]

how can you kill when the quran does not alow you or premit you to kill?!?!?

only ahdeeth do?! there are so many things which are clearly not mentioned in Quran and ahaadith clearify them.
WORDS OF RASULLAH ARE WORDS OF ALLAH.
sis!this thinking is very dangerous which leads to MUNKAREEN-E-HADITH.
may ALLAH protects ur and our belief.

[teergoBissono]

there are so many things which are clearly not mentioned in Quran and ahaadith clearify them.
WORDS OF RASULLAH ARE WORDS OF ALLAH.
sis!this thinking is very dangerous which leads to MUNKAREEN-E-HADITH.
may ALLAH protects ur and our belief.

akhi i'm not a munkira believe me in this.
I asked for evidence from the quran because i could not find any quranic verses.
And it got me confused to why the prophet would say this hadith, but i don't call any authentic hadith a lie akhi the ayah you just qouted can you please transalte it?

jzkallah

[smazibummigue]

salam.

this is a very good question. I've often thought this myself many times. After all, aren't we taught to believe that in matters of debate, the Qur'an ALWAYS has preference over hadith.

Its not as if all scholars agree on it. I've read many scholars say that it is in regards to political/religiousl treason and not simply changing religion.

As far as the Ottomans, apparently they took away the apostasy law after pressure from the British. http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/685...ent=a714004459

[Quonuttott]

The thing is that the ahadith(the sunnah) are the explanations for our actions. Like how to pray, how many rak'at etc.
So these narrations that you posted up are in accordance to the law of Allah, they are sahih and they have been agreed upon by the ulama in the action there in(kiilling the one who exits the religion), as it was the practice of the Prophet Muhammad and the khulufa arashedeen.
Aside from that some verse that point to the fact that murtad has done something great and is deserving of a punishment that I found in some of the books of fiqh are verses 38-39 of surah anfal..
Say to those who have disbelieved, if they cease (from disbelief) their past will be forgiven. But if they return (thereto), then the examples of those (punished) before them have already preceded (as a warning).
And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and polytheism: i.e. worshipping others besides Allah) and the religion (worship) will all be for Allah Alone [in the whole of the world]. But if they cease (worshipping others besides Allah), then certainly, Allah is All-Seer of what they do.

Please keep in mind that the ayat that you posted are according to a person who was a kafir not who became a kafir after excepting Islam.
Sometimes due to our limited knowledge we cannot come to a conclusion on a hadith that says something, and another hadith says something else(possibly even the opposite), However the fact is that our problem is not in the ahadith or ayat but rather it is our understanding.
The prophet alayi salaam said I was ordered to kill the people until they say La ilaha Illa Allah.....

But we also know that there is no compulsion in religion....

So how do we reconcile? We have to go to the scholars, and we have to understand each of these statements according to the true and real meaning, and we have to look at the sunnah, and ahadith, and actions of the sahaba, and the statements of the ulama to see how to implement these things in the right way..
If we can't then we believe in the ayat, and ahadith(according to its authenticity) without understanding how or why, until Allah gives us tawfeeq in understanding them.
and allah knows best...

[teergoBissono]

The thing is that the ahadith(the sunnah) are the explanations for our actions. Like how to pray, how many rak'at etc.
So these narrations that you posted up are in accordance to the law of Allah, they are sahih and they have been agreed upon by the ulama in the action there in(kiilling the one who exits the religion), as it was the practice of the Prophet Muhammad and the khulufa arashedeen.
Aside from that some verse that point to the fact that murtad has done something great and is deserving of a punishment that I found in some of the books of fiqh are verses 38-39 of surah anfal..
Say to those who have disbelieved, if they cease (from disbelief) their past will be forgiven. But if they return (thereto), then the examples of those (punished) before them have already preceded (as a warning).
And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and polytheism: i.e. worshipping others besides Allah) and the religion (worship) will all be for Allah Alone [in the whole of the world]. But if they cease (worshipping others besides Allah), then certainly, Allah is All-Seer of what they do.

Please keep in mind that the ayat that you posted are according to a person who was a kafir not who became a kafir after excepting Islam.
Sometimes due to our limited knowledge we cannot come to a conclusion on a hadith that says something, and another hadith says something else(possibly even the opposite), However the fact is that our problem is not in the ahadith or ayat but rather it is our understanding.
The prophet alayi salaam said I was ordered to kill the people until they say La ilaha Illa Allah.....

But we also know that there is no compulsion in religion....

So how do we reconcile? We have to go to the scholars, and we have to understand each of these statements according to the true and real meaning, and we have to look at the sunnah, and ahadith, and actions of the sahaba, and the statements of the ulama to see how to implement these things in the right way..
If we can't then we believe in the ayat, and ahadith(according to its authenticity) without understanding how or why, until Allah gives us tawfeeq in understanding them.
and allah knows best...

jzkallah akhi =]

[yasalaioqe]

i think these Ayaats are about the non believers(who don't embrace Islam) not about the apsotates.
ahaadith never conflict with the quran.because ALLAH almighty says
1-وما ینطق عن الہوی ان ہو الا وحی یوحی
2-وما اتکم الرسول فخزوہ وما نہکم عنہ فانتہوا
3-قل ان کنتم تحبون اللہ فاتبعونی یحببکم اللہ
and many other examples.
so following Rasullallah is to follow Holy Quran.
i advice u to contact a reputed mufti or Aalim.u may try this question at
http://www.shariahboard.org/
http://alittehad.org/
http://www.askimam.org/

the arabic/urdu font is not working properly sorry!

[espenijij]

a thorough explanation and traditional Islam's stance on it, on the following article/link by Shaykh Yusuf Al-Qaradawi:

http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/S...=1178724001992

[MichaelfromSpace]

SALAAM

When one accepts islam and then rejects it afterwards and becomes a non believer, and then propagates his other religion then that would lead to capital punishment and the reason for that is because its a crime against allah religion,which in other words is treason against islam.

Now also when you take this issue ,it is similar to treason which is commiting a crime against the king or queen, which i am sure still holds captial punishment.

So why do people accept the punishment in society but reject it in religion, also islam is not just a religion but a way of life which hold capital punishment due to the fact it is similar crime to treason and for which is captial punishment.

[teergoBissono]

a thorough explanation and traditional Islam's stance on it, on the following article/link by Shaykh Yusuf Al-Qaradawi:

http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/S...=1178724001992

Jzkallah khair akhi very useful

w.salam

[libertiespana]

First of all. Please bring SOLID REFERENCES that these Ottoman scholars held such an opinion.

So please mention the names WITH their books and FULL context!

No secondary sources or hearsay!

I just remember where I read it from; it was on loonwatch.com on an article about Fathima Rifqa Bary and Apostasy. They quoted the following material:

"Punishment for apostasy (in any case, extremely rare) was not in practice enforced in later times and was completely abolished by the [Ottoman] Turks by a decree of the Ottoman government in 1260/1844."

-- (The New Encyclopedia of Islam, by Cyril Glasse, p.54)

and this:


"The Ottoman Caliphate, the supreme representative of Sunni Islam, formally abolished this penalty…The Shaykh al-Islam, the supreme head of the religious courts and colleges, ratified this major shift in traditional legal doctrine. It was pointed out that there is no verse in the Qur’an that lays down a punishment for apostasy (although chapter 5 verse 54 and chapter 2 verse 217 predict a punishment in the next world). It was also pointed out that the ambiguities in the hadith (the sayings of the Prophet) suggest that apostasy is only an offense when combined with the crime of treason…

The debate triggered by the Ottoman reform was continued when al-Azhar University in Cairo, the supreme religious authority in the Arab world, delivered a formal fatwa (religious edict) in 1958, which confirmed the abolition of the classical law in this area."

---(T.J. Winters writing for Newsweek) [I believe T.J. Winters is the name Shaykh Abdal Hakim Murad uses when writing for Western sources]

The article on their website elaborates a bit more: http://www.loonwatch.com/2009/09/apostasy/


My point was simply that it's not a remotely unacceptable or unique opinion to believe that apostates from Islam who don't commit treason shouldn't be executed.

[SingleMan]

brother please bring evidence from the 4 imams...according to my understanding and from the scholars that i have asked there is ijmaa on this issue...so what if some guy 1300 years down the line disagrees even if he happens to be the ottoman shaykh ul islam....

apostosy in an islamic state is punishable by death...its like treason....treason in some countries results in a death penatly...the thing is no-one is forcing someone to accept islam...but once one does...the rules are clear....anyway i hope some scholars can bring the evidences and refute those that are speaking against this concept of islam...

[libertiespana]

I really don't want to go scrounging around the internet to find some fatwa Al Azhar put out in 1958 or a fatwa some Ottoman caliph issued in 1844 (which can probably only be found in some rare old book).

[smazibummigue]

I really don't want to go scrounging around the internet to find some fatwa Al Azhar put out in 1958 or a fatwa some Ottoman caliph issued in 1844 (which can probably only be found in some rare old book).

you don't need to go scrounging around. There are such well known scholars that didn't believe in a simple apostasy death penalty either: Hanafi jurist Sarakhsi (d. 1090), Maliki jurist Ibn al-Walid al-Baji (d. 494 AH) and Hanbali jurist Ibn Taymiyyah (1263-1328). Ibn Taymiyyah I know for example held that there is major and minor apostasy (major being more like treason, one who converts and then spreads mischief) and minor (simple change of religion) which is not punished.

As far as "some Ottoman caliph". Its probably worth reading since they WERE the KHILAFAH, the Muslim authority in the 1800s. Its not just "some" minor ruling.

[DownloadMan]

Salam Alaykum,

I think the issue is mostly moot for the majority of Muslims due to the following:

1. In the countries were there is no Muslim majority, putting the apostates to death can definitely not be applied, since the ruling power is non-Muslim, and they will not allow Muslims to carry out the Islamic laws properly.

2. In many of the countries with Muslim majorities, the government is so fervently anti-Islamic that it works to create apostates to run away from Islam, rather than punish those who leave Islam.

3. In the places where Islam is even partially applied, the pressure from Western and other powers for the apostates not to be killed will be so huge that such countries will just have to leave the apostate alone and let him live his life whichever way.

For this punishment to be properly understood by the Muslims, we would have to be in a situation where all the Muslims understand that it is obligatory for us Muslims to live amongst other Muslims only (as much as we can), that it is obligatory for the Muslims to do everything (economical, literary, military) to bring the non-Muslims to Islam, and that it is compulsory to apply the apostasy punishment as a way to ensure the spiritual survival of the community. Without this base, then it will be extremely difficult to explain to the Muslims (let alone the non-Muslims) about the reasoning behind this punishment.

Unforunately, in the age we are living in right now, de facto apostasy is so common among the Ummah that there is no way for any Islamic government to suddenly come and kill all the apostates in our midst, since the bloodshed would be in the tens or perhaps hundreds of millions of people.

Finally with respect to the loonwatch article, we have to be careful about the author, since he seems to promote Modernism and the leaving out of the 4 schools of thought and classical understanding of Islamic texts altogether in favor of things which are in line with modernity.