[Tveabuti]

I advocated gradualism.
There are various reasons.
A few decades ago Islam oriented people won election in Algeria.
Then the tanks rolled into street. Military in action. No Islam, no democracy (not an Islamic pet any way).
There have been powers in the recent times, as long as I can remember, who know what to control and how in any country where there is a possibility of Islamic rule.
Military is the most commonly controlled institution by the powers who are interested in keeping Islam and Muslims under their thumb.
Think of the military in Pakistan.
Think of the military in Turkey.
Others can tell more.
If Turkey has managed to do little bit then it is because of gradualism.
Another example is of Lal Masjid. Of course there is the extra complication here that it was not their mandate in which they indulged.
Finally the case of liquor was in the back of my mind. It was not abolished completely in a single go. And it was Allah(SWT)'s injunction to do it that way.
Graduality is ingrained in Islam. In the Meccan period there on ART (Tauheed, Risaalat, Aakhirat) and that is all. After that is perfected then there are Shariah injunctions in Madinah.
By that time the unbelievers have committed enough atrocities that they are left with no moral grounds to defend themselves.

I hope it helps to clarify the matters a little bit.

Thank you for responding, my brother.

Indeed, Algeria's experience was a significant lesson for the Muslim Ummah. And as you took a certain meaning from it, others took another meaning.

If I may illustrate "another meaning" of the Algerian experience, it's that adhering to the process of democracy as the enemies of Islam have laid out sets the believers up to fail, or be trapped, or succumb to the dominion and superiority of the hypocrites and enemies.

First, it is argued that the FIS was inheritly weak because it relied upon a coaltion, rather than superiority of a single party. While coalitions have their strengths, one of their weaknesses is the relative ease of fractionalization at the right amount of pressure. A singular party can lead a movement which will make it more difficult to overcome. However, it takes more work and is generally more difficult to reach power than a coalition. It should be mentioned that the FIS fractionalized not long after the military nullified the elections. In contrast, when the leadership of a movement is by a single party, it is usually strong enough to weather intense pressure.

Second, the democratic process set up in Algeria may have positioned the parliement to be changed, but it did nothing to address the power of the state in the hands of the military, in particular the generals corps which was beholden to the FLN and thus, the West.

As you mentioned, addressing the military is necessary to address the power of the Muslim country. Whomever controls the military has their neck around the people, at least for a time. It is entirely possible for someone to loose control of the military- as in a coup by colonels against the generals in Egypt's FOM, Qaddafi's coup against the Sanussi monarchy, the Baathist coups in Iraq, etc.

A generals corps is usually composed of individuals who are more closely scrutinized by political powers, and so are more inclined those who will do their bidding or agree with their political agenda. Generals/admirals essentially are political figures of the military.
So the generals of Algeria were largely figures of the ruling secular establishment, including with ties to Soviet empire ( several being trained in Soviet academies). Generals of Egypt were most likely all appointed/selected by the NDP/ Mubarak regime. Tunisia likewise for the Ben Ali regime. There is very little that can be expected of them.


Third, compliance with a kufr system within a Muslim country with the hopes that there is benefit (power)in the long run tends to go against the nature of Islam.

إِنَّ رَبَّكَ هُوَ أَعۡلَمُ بِمَن ضَلَّ عَن سَبِيلِهِۦ وَهُوَ أَعۡلَمُ بِٱلۡمُهۡتَدِينَ (٧) فَلَا تُطِعِ ٱلۡمُكَذِّبِينَ (٨) وَدُّواْ لَوۡ تُدۡهِنُ فَيُدۡهِنُونَ

68:7-9 Lo! thy Lord is best aware of him who strayeth from His way, and He is best aware of those who walk aright. (7) Therefore obey not thou the rejecters (8) Who would have had thee compromise, that they may compromise. (9)


And that's what the enemies of Islam require: for us believers to bend to their wishes and they will freely bend something of theirs because they are nothing but humans, whereas we are seeking to uphold the Deen of Allah (SWT) despite them.

More later insha Allah.

And Allah knows best.

[gluckmeea]

People here underestimate the chicanery of the evil.

Soros Celebrates the Fall of Tunisia

############
http://landdestroyer.blogspot.com/20...f-tunisia.html
##########



With this in mind, it should not surprise readers to discover that Tunisia, the alleged "starting point" of the "Arab Spring" is now also confirmed to be the work of US-funded organizations fully backed by Western corporate-financier interests and now, reaping their rewards in the form of sycophantic, self-aggrandizing award ceremonies sponsored by billionaire, corporate-fascist George Soros and his global spanning network of NGOs.

A "call for solidarity" by the International Federation for Human Rights (FIDH) mentions by name each and every group constituting the Tunisian opposition during the "uprising" in January 2011 as "FIDH member organisations." These include the "Tunisian League for Human Rights," the "Tunisian Association of Democratic Women," and the "National Council for Liberties in Tunisia," or CNLT. FIDH, acting as an international nexus for various foreign-funded organizations carrying out sedition worldwide under the guise of "human rights," is itself fully funded by the US government through the National Endowment for Democracy, Soros' Open Society, and many others with clearly compromised affiliations.

Farcically, but very predictably, this den of duplicity would produce Tunisia's "interim president," Moncef Marzouki, the leader of the above mentioned, US-funded "Tunisian League for Human Rights." This illustrates just how Western corporate-financier interests destabilize a nation and insert their representatives of choice, serving Western interests, not those of the people duped into fighting amongst themselves and dissolving their own national sovereignty - all under the cover of a contrived "humanitarian" cause. A similar, but much more violent replay of this took place in Libya where a BP-Shell man is now leading the country after a NATO-backed bloodbath.

Also mentioned above is the Tunisian CNLT which was co-founded by Sihem Bensedrine, who also acts as president of Soros' Open Society-funded Arab Working Group of Media Monitoring, meaning she is clearly not "accidentally" taking money from Soros. Bensedrine has been awarded the Soros-funded Human Rights Watch "Alison Des Forges Award," and now recognition during the 2011 "Award Dinner" held by the corporate-fascist "International Crisis Group" (ICG) upon whose board of trustees sits George Soros himself, amongst a motley crew of geopolitical meddlers, corporate-fascists, warmongers, and fellow financial criminals. The ICG is a corporate-funded organization featuring sponsors such as Chevron, Shell, and Morgan Stanley - not exactly what one thinks of when the words "human rights" are mentioned, perhaps even the exact opposite.

Soros' "progressive" networks, in tandem with the Neo-Conservative led National Endowment for Democracy and its myriad of subsidiaries are partly celebrating the fall of Tunisia as their agents come to power and begin steering the nation, its people, and their economy into the coffers of Wall Street and London. But this exercise in self-aggrandizing serves another purpose as well.

This is not the first time Wall Street and London interests have been caught self-aggrandizing; handing out awards to organizations they themselves have created, funded, and directed, all under the guise of "human rights" and "freedom." In Thailand, fake-independent journalist outfit "Prachatai" was also the creation of the US government and US corporate-funded foundations and has since then relied entirely on millions of Thai baht in funding year to year. Aside from millions of baht in funding from the US government via the National Endowment for Democracy, Prachatai has also received significant funding from various George Soros outfits including Open Society.

Soros' Human Rights Watch would then award Prachatai its "Hellman/Hammett Grant," after already being awarded the "Courage in Journalism" by the Bank of America, Chevron, Merril Lynch, and Northrop Grumman-funded International Women's Media Foundation (IWMF). Again, the last thing one might think of is "human rights" and "courage in journalism" when big banks, big oil, and war profiteers are involved, yet this is what people are expected to believe.

This exercise, as comical as it may seem to those who take the time to look behind the curtain, serves a crucial purpose in lending these contrived, seditious, foreign-funded operations badly needed credibility amongst those who don't bother being informed. Organizations with titles including "human rights" or the entirely foreign-sounding "Prachatai" are meant to look like liberal-progressive movements when in reality they serve hardcore corporate-fascist global imperialism

[alecoplesosse]

@Usama
Thanks. waiting for the addendum.

People here underestimate the chicanery of the evil.

May be.
But there is a problem at hand. We do not know how to tackle the amount of chicanery we already understand. We are neither united nor determined to take on the adversary. (See even this statement is the most vocal that I can make here.)
And another thing that I can not help but assert is that conspiracies are there but perhaps not on the levels that you have been advocating. May be you are on the right and the rest of us naive simpletons. But if this is not the case, and that is what I suspect to be true, then we are running a high risk of remaining cut-off from reality by taking your assertions at face value.

Wassalam

[Tveabuti]

It may be that bankers are financing secularization movements, but they function under the auspices of respective governments and while bankers may have small private armies at their financial disposal, the official governments, namely America and Europe, have made it possible for private organizations to carry out the actions which their own governments used to perform, such as financing political ngos, training activists, funding supportive media outlets, etc. Thus, its a full spectrum assault.

So narrowing the issue only to 'bankers' while ignoring the idea behind it, as brother Maripat insightfully noted, positions us to be detached from reality.

Now, Hizbul Nahda has taken apparently taken a gradual methodology.
Here is the leader of HN rejecting the call to resume a khilafah state as not a part of reality: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7NL4Lz6snR0

According to gradualism, he could still say he's in favor of a khilafah state, as he can switch his political views as needed.
But what of the people who believe in a khilafah state NOW before there actually is a state?
And what of the millions of people who don't know of it? They would be led to believe by Ghannouchi's comment that its not a viable, realistic, or reasonable political goal.
And is this the way of the Prophet (saaw), to dissuade from implementing Islam until its feasible?

This is why the issue of gradualism is wrongly attributed to Islam. The issue of the verses of khamr are that Allah (SWT) determined when to reveal the commands regarding khamr- not Man. Man was not made aware of this process. Man, as represented by all the Anbiya (as), is simply commanded to stand upright and firm with the Right and Haqq and Allah (SWT) will do the rest.

We are NOT to be for kufr and then against it, and against Islam and then for it.
Thus, once a command was revealed, the Prophet (saaw) and sahaba (rahm) immediately and promptly implemented it. They did not withhold it.

[Tveabuti]

Brother Maripat,

I am not in agreement that there was gradualism in the ayat/commands regarding khamr. I returned to some of there tafsir on these, and I found that the matter had two rulings: mubah and haram. It was mubah and then that was abrogated with ruling it was haram.
At no time did the sahaba (rahm) determine it to be haram prior ro the last ayah.

As well, I recall in the various commentary on this topic, many of the proponents of gradualism promoted it in their commentary tafsir of the Quran. Except the Sahaba (rahm) and the salaf did not recognize these ayat with the same gradualism meaning.

Abrogation occurred, as with many other issues. But again, the issue of abrogation is solely the sovereignty of the Sovereign Lawgiver, ar Rabb. The issue of gradualism has appeared only in recent times.

[gluckmeea]

@Usama
Thanks. waiting for the addendum.

May be.
But there is a problem at hand. We do not know how to tackle the amount of chicanery we already understand. We are neither united nor determined to take on the adversary. (See even this statement is the most vocal that I can make here.)
And another thing that I can not help but assert is that conspiracies are there but perhaps not on the levels that you have been advocating. May be you are on the right and the rest of us naive simpletons. But if this is not the case, and that is what I suspect to be true, then we are running a high risk of remaining cut-off from reality by taking your assertions at face value.

Wassalam

Do you have a central bank in India ?

##########
http://www.henrymakow.com/central_bank.html

Makow Comment from 2007: "A book published in 1889, "The Red Dragon" by L.B. Woolfolk suggests to me that British (and American) imperialism originated in the need of Jewish bankers and their Gentile confederates to translate money they could create out of nothing (thanks to their control of credit), into real wealth (i.e. world ownership.)"

########

Do not underestimate God's declaration of war against usury.

Check this to know the full spectrum of evil done by usury.

http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/show...-global-empire

[alecoplesosse]

Do you have a central bank in India ?

##########
http://www.henrymakow.com/central_bank.html

Makow Comment from 2007: "A book published in 1889, "The Red Dragon" by L.B. Woolfolk suggests to me that British (and American) imperialism originated in the need of Jewish bankers and their Gentile confederates to translate money they could create out of nothing (thanks to their control of credit), into real wealth (i.e. world ownership.)"

########

Do not underestimate God's declaration of war against usury.

Check this to know the full spectrum of evil done by usury.

http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/show...-global-empire

Yes we do have a central bank in India. It is called the Reserve Bank of India. Its former governor Dr Man Mohan Singh is the Prime Minister of India. (I fear that you'll love this all!) And yes, Indian banking system is completely riba based. And yes it is controlled by Reserve Bank of India. And yes, Reserve Bank of India is with us from British times. It controlled the banking in British India that included the regions of present Pakistan and Bangla Desh. And yes, I agree that money, banking, financial control is a potent weapon to control a society. And I agree that people use it. And yes, there are some people who are more adapt at it and have huge expertise in it which I am not naming because other J-word has to be used that is universally taboo (not merely at SF).

But brother the buck stops some where. For example I am not ready to believe that Allama Iqbal was a lizard. I'll also agree that the financial control might create a very unbalanced and exploitative world similar to the unbalanced world created by US/NATO military power. I also agree that financial ruthlessness sometimes can be more scary than military ruthlessness. I also agree that it is not a flight of fancy but again the buck should stop some where. Anyway I stop here for the time being. If I get time I'll try to go through the other thread linked by you.

Brother Maripat,

I am not in agreement that there was gradualism in the ayat/commands regarding khamr. I returned to some of there tafsir on these, and I found that the matter had two rulings: mubah and haram. It was mubah and then that was abrogated with ruling it was haram.
At no time did the sahaba (rahm) determine it to be haram prior ro the last ayah.

As well, I recall in the various commentary on this topic, many of the proponents of gradualism promoted it in their commentary tafsir of the Quran. Except the Sahaba (rahm) and the salaf did not recognize these ayat with the same gradualism meaning.

Abrogation occurred, as with many other issues. But again, the issue of abrogation is solely the sovereignty of the Sovereign Lawgiver, ar Rabb. The issue of gradualism has appeared only in recent times.

Actually gradualism is there in the Holy Qur'an itself. I'll repeat the first example I gave. Step I: Building of Fath=Meccan Period. Step II: Implementation of Shariah. This is gradualism manifest. Second Example: Do not go near Salah in a state of intoxication. This is gradualism again. So after above injunction one could go to his wife in a state of intoxication but not to Salah. It means that if you are in a state of intoxication then delay your Salah till you come out of your trance. It also means that do not indulge in alcohol if you are about to Pray. Delay your indulgence till after Salah. In the second stage the prohibition goes to that level that ten different occupations related to alcohol are now haraam.

Anyway we need not prolong the discussion since we have a genuine difference of opinion with each other. The beauty of Islam is that in spite of differences of opinion we can take common decision about future courses of action in our consultations.

Finally it will be very nice if someone could summarize the events in that country because it is not possible for everybody to keep track of the vents in every country.
Wassalam

[Anydayhybeall]

Slama alikum,

in my observation there is communistic party appearing too often in connection with Tunisia. In addition the France24 TV gives them space - which I think is more than the proportion from all parties time which they receive in medias.

w alikum assalam

[alecoplesosse]

Slama alikum,

in my observation there is communistic party appearing too often in connection with Tunisia. In addition the France24 TV gives them space - which I think is more than the proportion from all parties time which they receive in medias.

w alikum assalam

After communist countries like USSR, China and Cuba there are few other countries that have residual communism still present in them. For example Italy and France. And these ideologues keep doing much damage to Islam and Muslims.

[Anydayhybeall]

After communist countries like USSR, China and Cuba there are few other countries that have residual communism still present in them. For example Italy and France. And these ideologues keep doing much damage to Islam and Muslims.

I think too France is base of nationalism and communism, as person from former communistic country I am extremely sensitive and scared about this issue. I would like to warn all people before communism, it does not seem from first look sometimes - they are able to deceive people by their speeches, but it is all sick.

w alikum assalam

[Tveabuti]

Yes we do have a central bank in India. It is called the Reserve Bank of India. Its former governor Dr Man Mohan Singh is the Prime Minister of India. (I fear that you'll love this all!) And yes, Indian banking system is completely riba based. And yes it is controlled by Reserve Bank of India. And yes, Reserve Bank of India is with us from British times. It controlled the banking in British India that included the regions of present Pakistan and Bangla Desh. And yes, I agree that money, banking, financial control is a potent weapon to control a society. And I agree that people use it. And yes, there are some people who are more adapt at it and have huge expertise in it which I am not naming because other J-word has to be used that is universally taboo (not merely at SF).

But brother the buck stops some where. For example I am not ready to believe that Allama Iqbal was a lizard. I'll also agree that the financial control might create a very unbalanced and exploitative world similar to the unbalanced world created by US/NATO military power. I also agree that financial ruthlessness sometimes can be more scary than military ruthlessness. I also agree that it is not a flight of fancy but again the buck should stop some where. Anyway I stop here for the time being. If I get time I'll try to go through the other thread linked by you.



Actually gradualism is there in the Holy Qur'an itself. I'll repeat the first example I gave. Step I: Building of Fath=Meccan Period. Step II: Implementation of Shariah. This is gradualism manifest. Second Example: Do not go near Salah in a state of intoxication. This is gradualism again. So after above injunction one could go to his wife in a state of intoxication but not to Salah. It means that if you are in a state of intoxication then delay your Salah till you come out of your trance. It also means that do not indulge in alcohol if you are about to Pray. Delay your indulgence till after Salah. In the second stage the prohibition goes to that level that ten different occupations related to alcohol are now haraam.

Anyway we need not prolong the discussion since we have a genuine difference of opinion with each other. The beauty of Islam is that in spite of differences of opinion we can take common decision about future courses of action in our consultations.

Finally it will be very nice if someone could summarize the events in that country because it is not possible for everybody to keep track of the vents in every country.
Wassalam

I'm not contending the concept of tarbiyah, culturing, enlightening which enables people to leave jahiliya to enter iman and be more receptive to Islam.


But I don't agree with what has emerged as "gradualism" as it manifests in political affairs.

How does this allow for a political party such as an Nahda to implement haram and work within an unIslamic political system?
And how is this justified when the Prophet (saaw) refused to do as such?
Let us take note: advocating liberal capitalist economic measures (privatizing what belongs to the people, legalizing riba private banking, etc).

I don't mean to be argumentative, but I honestly want to understand how you understand it and present it.

I am wary of attempts to restrict the meaning of the Makkan period to ONLY this or that. It was common for some time for a salafi to assert that the Prophet (saaw) taught ONLY Tauhid in Makka for 13 years.
This is not a permissible restricton of the Risala.

But in any case, the matter is about ADVOCATING RULING BY HARAM AND KUFR.
This is what government fuqaha and even some rulers have initially claimed that they will gradually bring Islam. Sadat. Medienne in Turkey, and a host of other PM and presidents promised to bring and support Islam while ruling by kufr and enforcing haram.


Thus, if you agree with hizban Nahda, how do you accept ruling by kufr or haram laws and with what textual evidences?

[alecoplesosse]

I'm not contending the concept of tarbiyah, culturing, enlightening which enables people to leave jahiliya to enter iman and be more receptive to Islam.


But I don't agree with what has emerged as "gradualism" as it manifests in political affairs.

How does this allow for a political party such as an Nahda to implement haram and work within an unIslamic political system?
And how is this justified when the Prophet (saaw) refused to do as such?
Let us take note: advocating liberal capitalist economic measures (privatizing what belongs to the people, legalizing riba private banking, etc).

I don't mean to be argumentative, but I honestly want to understand how you understand it and present it.

I am wary of attempts to restrict the meaning of the Makkan period to ONLY this or that. It was common for some time for a salafi to assert that the Prophet (saaw) taught ONLY Tauhid in Makka for 13 years.
This is not a permissible restricton of the Risala.

But in any case, the matter is about ADVOCATING RULING BY HARAM AND KUFR.
This is what government fuqaha and even some rulers have initially claimed that they will gradually bring Islam. Sadat. Medienne in Turkey, and a host of other PM and presidents promised to bring and support Islam while ruling by kufr and enforcing haram.


Thus, if you agree with hizban Nahda, how do you accept ruling by kufr or haram laws and with what textual evidences?

Actually gradualism is not about accepting and using and implementing kufr. It is about basic human capacity. Suppose I ask my sub-ordinate to stand on one leg and then I demand that he raise the other leg also without putting the first leg down. Allah(SWT) does not make us responsible for more than our capacity. That is what gradualism is about. If am an alcoholic then sudden complete with drawl is not recommended by any physician. That is gradualism. When we talk about gradual implementation you are focusing on the un-implemented part. The trick is to focus on the implemented part. That is positive. That is progress. That is the thing that we should appreciate. As far as the un-implemented part is concerned it does not amount to kufr or disobedience because we do have intention to implement it in the next stage.
I'll give you an example from current affairs. In one of the south asian countries they implemented democracy by having elections. In the first session of the parliament they were punching each other in the face. Reason? No ground was prepared for implementation of democracy. This is what is the meaning of Meccan period. It is not merely Tauheed. It is Tauheed, Risaalat and Aakhirat. Of course Salafi can have their opinion for they shall answer for themselves and we need not bring them into present discussion. Take the case of Mutah. Beloved Prophet(PBUH), if my info is correct, allowed it initially but later he forbid it decisively. I'll take it as gradualism. The piecemeal revelation of the Holy Qur'an is a prime example of gradualism. Beloved Prophet(PBUH) was not bestowed with this as a whole in the book form. We must pay heed to the wisdom of our Lord Most High. When beloved Prophet(PBUH) was worried about non-appearance of the Holy Qur'an for some period then Allah(SWT) sent Hazrat Gibreel(AS) to assure him that no you have not been forsaken. What does it mean? The relevant portions will come in their time-and these did. If you ask a psychologist then he too will tell you that changes in behaviour and habit should be implemented gradually. Of course if you have the capacity to implement Shariah in a lump sum manner then you will be bound to do that. For the rest of us it is like memorizing four Verses per day. We can not drink whole of it in a day or weak or a month-in the context of memorization. As brother London points out that implementing of all of the things in a single go is impractical. We have due and complete reverence for Shariah and we are demanding gradual implementation only because of our human limitations. Of course if you are the Khalifa and you order for lump sum shariah implementation then minions like me will be obliged to do your bidding.

Remember if we do not get time to implement whole of it then Allah(SWT) did not will us to implement it all. But of course I do not see why Allah(SWT) will sweep the carpet from below our feet after we have implemented only 10, 20, 30, 60 or 90 percent of the Shariah.
Wassalam

[gluckmeea]

Yes we do have a central bank in India.

But brother the buck stops some where. For example I am not ready to believe that Allama Iqbal was a lizard.

Ignore the repltilian issue promoted by some paid agents in the Internet. When the bankers failed to prevent the truth getting broadcasted like wild fire across the globe through Internet, they came out with a novel deception trick. Make the water so muddy that people can not see the real shark .

Get some guys who will mix absurd stories like UFO ,reptilian , aliens etc with the truth and promote such a **** as a true conspiracy theory !! Then , people will think those conspiracy-guys as nutscases !! Then,
real sharks can not be distinguised from fake sharks.

Think about Dan Brown. Why suddenly his books become best seller ? May be , I should start a new thread like this " How to identify a Conspiracy nut ? "

[alecoplesosse]

Ignore the repltilian issue promoted by some paid agents in the Internet. When the bankers failed to prevent the truth getting broadcasted like wild fire across the globe through Internet, they came out with a novel deception trick. Make the water so muddy that people can not see the real shark .

Get some guys who will mix absurd stories like UFO ,reptilian , aliens etc with the truth and promote such a **** as a true conspiracy theory !! Then , people will think those conspiracy-guys as nutscases !! Then,
real sharks can not be distinguised from fake sharks.

Think about Dan Brown. Why suddenly his books become best seller ? May be , I should start a new thread like this " How to identify a Conspiracy nut ? "

Normally I should have figured that out myself but still some assurance was required. So thanks.
But still I am not converted to the conspiracy theory club. In particular I'll like some clarifications about Iqbal. I'll post the question in Iqbal thread. We'll leave this thread to Tunisian matters.
Wassalam