[leoto5Fm]

I was sent a personal message on my youtube account by a hadith denier, who sent me the following hadith and reason why he thinks it is wrong and contradicting the qur'an (his message is all in blue):

Muslim; Book 001, Number 0214: It is narrated on the authority of Anas b. Malik that when this verse:" O ye who believe I raise not your voices above the voice of the Prophet, nor shout loud unto him in discourse, as ye shout loud unto one another, lest your deeds should become null and void, while you perceive not" (xlix. 2-5), was revealed. Thabit b. Qais confined himself in his house and said: I am one of the denizens of Fire, and he deliberately avoided coming to the Apostle (may peace be upon him). The Apostle (may peace be upon him) asked Sa'd b, Mu'adh about him and said, Abu Amr, how is Thabit? Has he fallen sick? Sa'd said: He is my neighbour, but I do not know of his illness. Sa'd came to him (Thabit), and conveyed to him the message of the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him). Upon this Thabit said: This verse was revealed, and you are well aware of the fact that, amongst all of you, mine is the voice louder than that of the Messenger of Allah, and so I am one amongst the denizens of Fire, Sa'd Informed the Holy Prophet about it. Upon this the Messenger of Allah observed: (Nay, not so) but he (Thabit) is one of the dwellers of Paradise.
Bukhari: Volume 6, Book 60, Number 369: Narrated Anas bin Malik: The Prophet missed Thabit bin Qais for a period (So he inquired about him). A man said. "O Allah's Apostle! I will bring you his news." So he went to Thabit and found him sitting in his house and bowing his head. The man said to Thabit, " 'What is the matter with you?" Thabitreplied that it was an evil affair, for he used to raise his voice above the voice of the Prophet and so all his good deeds had been annulled, and he considered himself as one of the people of the Fire. Then the man returned to the Prophet and told him that Thabit had said, so-and-so. (Musa bin Anas) said: The man returned to Thabit with great glad tidings. The Prophet said to the man. "Go back to him and say to him: "You are not from the people of the Hell Fire, but from the people of Paradise."
************************************************** ***
This hadith can never be accepted as authentic for the following reasons.
a. This verse was revealed during 9th Hijri year, when deputations from various tribes visited the Prophet), in the context of Aqaba. Everyone agrees on this. [seeBukhari, Fat-hul Bari, Tafsir chapter, Vol. 20, 338]
b. Sa'dibnMa'az was wounded during the Battle of Trenches. A few days after the Campaign ofBanuQuraizah, in ZulQida month of 5th Hijrayar, he died. This fact is undisputed. [see Bukhari, Muslim, Isaba, 3:197; Tajrid, 2: 185; Ikmal, etc.]
As we see, Sa'd was dead four years before this verse was revealed. Therefore, any meeting or conversation of Sa'd with the Prophet or Thabit is either false or erroneous. Thus, even though its isnad is valid, we humbly have to admit some kind of error or problem in regard to this hadith.

i can send you more hadiths if u can explain them to me

and as i already said i dont believe the hadiths that go against the quran

can u please give me hadiths that dont go against quran i will follow

So that was what he sent me can someone explain all that to me as I am a layman.

[goolen4you]

A cursory look reveals that this hadith was collected with two more wordings by Muslim wherein Sa'd bin Mua'dh is not mentioned at all, and the wording of Bukhari also does not mention Sa'd bin Mua'dh .

The tafseers also do not utilize the hadith with Sa'd bin Mua'dh.

[smokeberly]

First of all, to brother Quandary for clear and fast response.


brother Thauban,

Hadith deniers just mix up everything they can to cast doubts with total disregards for hadith gradings and classifications. I guess they are not unlike Shi'a in this case, as long as they can find anything to suit their purpose, they'll use it. Plus sometimes you'll have to check the actual Muslim/Bukhari texts to make sure the hadith they mentioned is truly in the books. I've in the past tried to double check several hadiths sent to me but I found none of them in the said books.

[luspikals]

Shalom,

You need not worry. Hadiths are works of man, so they are not perfect. Unless you consider that hadith collectors were DIVINE. Even prophet Muhammad made mistakes in his life. So no wonder that even scholars will make mistakes. Life is a test for EVERYONE. Allah has given you the Furqaan, the best Hadith. So , submit yourself humbly to your Lord. I suppose you have not gone through EVERY hadith in the market. But I think Allah will give you ENOUGH opportunity to study his Kitaab. May God guide you to success in this life and next.

PEACE
-------------- Student of Allah

[smokeberly]

You need not worry. Hadiths are works of man, so they are not perfect. Unless you consider that hadith collectors were DIVINE. [/B]

hence there's a grading system for every hadith collected. If you think collecting hadith is just that, to write down the said hadith in a book, then anyone can be a hadith collector/grader. Knowing that the hadith collectors and the people responsible for the chains of the narrations were not infallible reinforced the need to have a sound and clear grading system that encompass the hadith, the people and the environment to ensure that only the authentic hadiths can be used as a source of reference.

To blatantly disregard the careful work of the past alims without any justifications and in-depth knowledge of the system itself is already an insult to anyone's intelligence, let alone to deny the importance of such system objectively.

[luspikals]

hence there's a grading system for every hadith collected. If you think collecting hadith is just that, to write down the said hadith in a book, then anyone can be a hadith collector/grader. Knowing that the hadith collectors and the people responsible for the chains of the narrations were not infallible reinforced the need to have a sound and clear grading system that encompass the hadith, the people and the environment to ensure that only the authentic hadiths can be used as a source of reference.

To blatantly disregard the careful work of the past alims without any justifications and in-depth knowledge of the system itself is already an insult to anyone's intelligence, let alone to deny the importance of such system objectively.

Salam,

I do not blatantly disregard it. Just as I don't blatently disregard the sincerity of the Christian scholar or Hindu pandits for thousands of years. But just because they were sincere , does not guarantee anything. You can call upon the all of humanity and the Jinns, yet you shall not be able to produce anything the like of the Qur'an. If human sincerity alone is the Furqaan, then I think one is better off with the hindu pandits who begin and end their lives in the temple they reside in.

PEACE
--------------- Student of Allah

[smokeberly]

"I do not disregard hadiths, just that I don't want to use hadith as they were collected by mere humans". That's what most of hadith deniers said.

Isn't that in itself is a clear contradiction?

[goolen4you]

The most sensible way forward is to get someone who speaks arabic to check Imam Nawawi's points on the hadith from Sharh Saheeh Muslim, and see what he said concerning the hadith.

[luspikals]

"I do not disregard hadiths, just that I don't want to use hadith as they were collected by mere humans". That's what most of hadith deniers said.

Isn't that in itself is a clear contradiction?

thats not what I wrote. That is what you made up. Do not put words in my mouth, that is impolite. If you have anything to say, say it by basing it on what I said. Not by fabricating a whole sentence by yourself and fighting with your own self made stick man. Do not let our difference of opinion cause hatred, you are my brother in my deen. Inshallah, we will both succeed.

PEACE
------------- Student of Allah

[smokeberly]

thats not what I wrote. That is what you made up. Do not put words in my mouth, that is impolite. If you have anything to say, say it by basing it on what I said. Not by fabricating a whole sentence by yourself and fighting with your own self made stick man. Do not let our difference of opinion cause hatred, you are my brother in my deen. Inshallah, we will both succeed.

PEACE
------------- Student of Allah

brother,

I didn't quote that from you neither I attribute that to you. I wrote the most common statement from hadith deniers that I've heard, which to me, seems like a contradiction in itself. That's all.

[sandyphoebetvmaa]

This issue was well known to the scholars. Ibn Kathir mentions it in his tafsir of the verse, and Hafiz Ibn Hajar gives an explanation for it in Fath al-Bari, saying that there are different possible interpretations of exactly what part of the sura was revealed when, and what exact part of the sura could have relevance to the story, making it possible to find a reconciliation of the different texts; he also states that another narration says that it was actually Sa'd ibn 'Ubada, not Ibn Mu'adh - Muslim himself gives three other narrations of the hadith and states explicitly that none of them mention Sa'd ibn Mu'adh. The person who has raised this issue sees it as a problem because he has a false impression of how the science of hadith works; this is generally the case with hadith deniers.

[leoto5Fm]

JazaakhAllah brothers for clearing this out for me. I sent your replies to the hadith denier and also banned him, as I see he will try his trickery on me and waste my time.