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Assalamu alaykum

It is idiotic to expact someone to be employed if one has a habbit of leaving for 4 months khuruz on yearly basis. I like to see the elders of TJ look after the families when they are on the street.
It is idiotic to expact someone to be employed if one has a habbit of leaving for 4 months khuruz on yearly basis TJ members go for khrooj for 40 days in an year.

As an employer it looks idiotic. But let me quote the other side of the story. While working for projects, schedules are to be met, the employee finishes the job a month before schedule (putting extra effort), he applies for leave for one month. I like that employee. Think of employees who are corrupt, lazy, dishonest etc. Now we have a employee who is honest, hard working etc. He applies for a month's leave, surely I shall grant him leave.

I like to see the elders of TJ look after the families when they are on the street When a saathee works under the guidance of TJ elders, Inshaa Allah he will never be on street. It is the zealot who don't want to get controlled by elders face problems.

Not everyone can leave their job and business. TJ says don't come out breaking the door, rather, open the door.

Trust me a lot of them would not give you second glance when you are trying to find spouse for your daughter and son because you don't fit into secular ideals of weath. May be you should also see people who don't have wealth but could manage a satisfied marriage.


So much for the statement 'Allahse hota hai' Yes "Allah se hota hai", Never experienced "Allah se naheen hota hai".

Regarding taking a job with a dress code, the serious elders are their to guide them.

Let me quote a incident. One brother had "female beauty saloon". After four months he wanted to close that. He did mashwarah with elders (they didn't say Allah se hota hai). They advised him to continue with the saloon, also in the shop they asked him to sell items used by ladies. Slowly he drifted towards the shop and closed the "beauty saloon".

We have many such stories of people who work in haram jobs, like bank jobs.

That is called open door, don't break it.

[ppfpooghn]

Bismillah
Perhaps there are people who fullfill the requirments but I know of cases where they abuse the effort of TJ for not taking family responsibilities.

This is a frequent criticism of this group, but they are undergoing spiritual training of a sort, so it's not really fair to pick on individual shortcomings, nor to conflate these to the group as a whole. Personally, I did not find them that interesting. I used to live upstairs in a masjid where they regularly visited and once they found out that I was not interested in participating in their activities, they ignored me completely. They would sometimes refuse to share their food, Tabligh members only, and once complained to me for reading Quran in the masjid saying I was disturbing their sleeping by making so much "noise."

So, there. I did it too.

I think that their personal behavior does affect people's perceptions of the organization. That is, I suppose, at least partially justified since we do tend to judge communities by the behavior of their individual members. This should remind us that it is also important for us, as Muslims, to behave in ways that reflect well on our community.

Salaam,

Abu Marwan

[markoiutrfffdsa]

I know of the good effort and wallahi I wish and pray every single believer nomatter of their orienation joins the effort for pleasure of Allah alone.
I am of the opinon that the elders have to involve more people in tassawuf in these day and age. Too often people say things goes beyond the 6 points.
Ahmed please remove my quote from your positngs 23.

I have met one TJ guy who works in Kuwait Oil company ( KOC). This company allows Kuwaiti nationals to wear their long dress in the work. But, KOC does not allow non-Kuwaiti employees to wear long dress.
So , this TJ guy is forced to wear Western suit and pant in the job. What a pity !!

[ppfpooghn]

Assalamu alaykum
Brother just sit in a masjid. Count the people who are dishonest, who's wife has ditched, who is backbiting, who is vandalizing etc. And count the number of brothers who are in right path.

If you have statistics, they weigh it.

Assalamu alaikum,

It is disturbing to see this kind of message inviting people to find fault with one another. This is typical of self-righteous bigots, people who are so busy cataloging the sins of their neighbors that they forget completely about themselves. This, in itself, is a kind of ghibah.

When I see this, I have to remind myself that it is not confined to Muslims alone, and that makes me feel a little bit better. The publicly pious are perhaps the most distasteful of Muslims, and more likely to drive people away from our religion than almost anything else.

200 years ago Robert Burns wrote a poem about them. It begins:

O ye wha are sae guid yoursel',
Sae pious and sae holy,
Ye've nought to do but mark and tell
Your neibours' fauts and folly!
Whase life is like a weel-gaun mill,
Supplied wi' store o' water;
The heaped happer's ebbing still,
An' still the clap plays clatter.


This page has the full text with hyper-linked definitions of some of the words, for those who are unfamiliar with Scotts English.

http://www.robertburns.org/works/93.shtml

In Islam it is called /Hisba/ the taking account of onself before we are taken account of. This does not require us to compare ourselves to others, we will not be asked about this.

Invite others with goodness and mercy and good works for the sake of Allah and do not judge others.


Salaam,

Abu Marwan

[ppfpooghn]

Abu Marwan
From my expeirience I would have left after spending first 10 days with them if it wasn't for the sincere and humble Amir of the Jammah. I found him soft hearted, good spirited and genuine. He took time to reach out to people who would walk a mile and put up with my salafist tendency where I criticised and questioned everything. He never said anything against anyone. I try to emulate him because to me he is living example of a true TJ activist.
I couldn't say the same for the others. I stayed for the entire 40 days and benefitted spiritually like never before but would have preffered a follow on by directing me to a scholar of tassawuf who would have controled by new found relegiosity.
Allahualam

Assalamu alakikum,

You can find good people just about anywhere. It's good you found one in the Tabligh, but not particularly surprising.

Constant criticism and questioning is not so much a salafi tendency as it is a teenage tendency. I wouldn't try to define salafism but I have not seen that salafis are any more adept at critical thought than are other Muslims. Most of their "critiques" are given to them shrink-wrapped. With these they sally forth to dispute things they have been coached in, just like most other people who love to argue fruitlessly.

Their arguments all come to nothing because they have been coached to say things that they do not understand, and because they are not attempting to uncover truth, but only to force an ill-understood opinion on someone else. This is most obvious with the Hizb al-Tahrir activists, if you have ever had any contact with them. I think this is because they are the best trained and have the most consistent "arguments" - everything having been previously approved by the Central Committee of the People's Commissariat. They used to always travel in pairs - presumably so one could watch the other.

A shaykh of tassawuf can provide the discipline many people need to begin to make sense of many complex issues. As with any teacher, it is best to choose wisely. Again, there are good people everywhere.

Salaam,

Abu Marwan

[ppfpooghn]

Ahmed
Please delete my quote from post 22.
Br. Abu Marwan
The reason for me saying such things is because I am calling for developing a culture of accountability by themsleves and by the elders. In tassawuf a person giving baya would put themselves forward for correction. This is not so in TJ as the effort for most is long term training. Some even end up doing the effort out of habbit rather then genuine concern. The reason for such stance is because of lack of connection with scholars of tassawuf. I suppose this is common for everyone.
I used to think the tassawuf was optional but now more i think about it, it is becomming a must for everyone. The culture of gratification, ego causes a culture of unaccoutability individually and collectively and the soecity at large suffer in every possible way.
HT is finished!! Some of them are found to be mole and now do the bidding of islamophobe. i generally don't trust people who talk of politics too much. Relegion is relegated to nothing more then an ism, similar to zionism. I tend to vomit it out!!

Allahualam

You make an interesting suggestion that everyone should follow tassawuf. There is much to be said for the discipline. The problem I have with it has to do with the mystic claims for authority. An authority structure is fine, but the mystical claims of many orders have no basis.

I agree with you about politics and Islam. It tends to create an "Islamism" (that's an actual word in French) and reduce Islam to a political ideology. Once Islam becomes an ideology it can be identified as evil, like Communism and Fascism. This is the usual MO of the Islamophobic right. They generally insist that Islam is an ideology, not a religion.

Structurally, political and religious power has been separate in Sunni Islam since the days of the Rightly Guided Caliphs. The only exception is under the Mutazila heresy, when the state attempted to impose an official doctrine. Imam Ahmad resisted them, ignored them, refused to participate. Imam Malik, also ignored power. He wrote the Muwatta on a political commission but warned that it should not be used to impose doctrine through the state.

The Shias ignored the state completely and did not discover politics until Imam Khomeini invented the new doctrine of the Wilayat-e-Fiqhi for them. This is what enabled the Islamic Revolution in Iran, and nothing else. It was a huge innovation for them, but they hardly noticed. They are accustomed to such things.

I'm interested in politics. It's important for Muslims. But it's also important to remember that Islam is above this. States and civilizations rise and fall. Political ideologies succeed for a while, then fail. People who declare Islam as their political party today, will find something new tomorrow. It's best to give them a wide berth and hope they find guidance before events sweep them away.

Salaam,

Abu Marwan

[markoiutrfffdsa]

You make an interesting suggestion that everyone should follow tassawuf. There is much to be said for the discipline. The problem I have with it has to do with the mystic claims for authority. An authority structure is fine, but the mystical claims of many orders have no basis.

I agree with you about politics and Islam. It tends to create an "Islamism" (that's an actual word in French) and reduce Islam to a political ideology. Once Islam becomes an ideology it can be identified as evil, like Communism and Fascism. This is the usual MO of the Islamophobic right. They generally insist that Islam is an ideology, not a religion.

Structurally, political and religious power has been separate in Sunni Islam since the days of the Rightly Guided Caliphs. The only exception is under the Mutazila heresy, when the state attempted to impose an official doctrine. Imam Ahmad resisted them, ignored them, refused to participate. Imam Malik, also ignored power. He wrote the Muwatta on a political commission but warned that it should not be used to impose doctrine through the state.

The Shias ignored the state completely and did not discover politics until Imam Khomeini invented the new doctrine of the Wilayat-e-Fiqhi for them. This is what enabled the Islamic Revolution in Iran, and nothing else. It was a huge innovation for them, but they hardly noticed. They are accustomed to such things.

I'm interested in politics. It's important for Muslims. But it's also important to remember that Islam is above this. States and civilizations rise and fall. Political ideologies succeed for a while, then fail. People who declare Islam as their political party today, will find something new tomorrow. It's best to give them a wide berth and hope they find guidance before events sweep them away.

Salaam,

Abu Marwan

Your comment has raised some important issues. May be , you should start a new thread. In the current thread, I would request your feedback about the obstacles faced by the practising brothers living in the West and Australia.

[ppfpooghn]

Your comment has raised some important issues. May be , you should start a new thread. In the current thread, I would request your feedback about the obstacles faced by the practising brothers living in the West and Australia.

Assalamu alaikum Curious Traveller,

Muslims all over the world are facing difficult challenges. For those in the West these challenges are compounded by social dislocation and political isolation.

Classical scholars divided the world into two realms: dar al-Islam and dar al-harb. This emerged directly from the perception, or the belief, that Islam creates a social environment that supports religious practice and that this, in turn, is directly tied to a nurturing of faith. A simple dichotomy was easy to understand and worked for a while, although from the very beginning Muslims' experiences in Abyssinia during the first Hijra confirmed that a third "abode" also existed: dar al-sulh. All three describe a cultural and political space in which our lives unfold.

A major challenge for Western Muslims is to create a cultural space for themselves and then, within this space, to begin to discover an identity. This is not as easy as it might seem. Western countries vary widely in their social view of foreigners and immigrants while Muslims themselves may come from isolated places that have seen little movement of people in or out, and so are not equipped to deal with diversity, not even within their own communities.

I see two points of tension here:

• there is a tension between the Muslim minority in a place and the majority community. This tension centers on Muslims attempts to carve out a cultural space for themselves within their new societies;
• there is a tension within the Muslim community, now composed of many diverse elements which have not been in direct contact with one another before, or, alternatively, which have brought old rivalries with them from somewhere else.

There was a thread here last week that illustrated the tension that can arise in the first category, negotiation of the interface between immigrant and national cultures. A woman who said she was of Lebanese origin described a problem she was having with her father, who had suddenly begun imposing restrictions on her which made he feel that he no longer trusted her. She also described a spiritual crisis she was having at the discovery of the "sexist" nature of Arab or Muslim society and the position of women in Islam.

Both issues arise from a natural process of negotiating cultural space. This woman's father continues to act as though he were in Lebanon, and perceives great danger to his daughter and his family since the social protection he traditionally relied upon has disappeared. There may or may not be a danger - that is immaterial. Perception is everything. Her spiritual turbulence is caused by her own lack of cultural literacy: she does not fully understand Lebanese Muslim culture and society and she does not fully understand the culture and society of the place where she is, so she cannot rationally respond to criticism from either side. Her tendency will be to go with the stronger cultural force - that of the place where she lives, but this exacerbates tensions with her family and makes her father even more anxious.

Tensions within diverse elements of the Muslim community in whatever country are probably easier for most people to understand since we can see factions and national communities and observe their interaction. Because we can see this easily, we do find more people discussing this problem and looking for solutions.

Fundamentalists will say that the solution to both problems is in Islam, and they are right. The problem is that they each look at Islam and come up with different types of solutions. Some become hyper-observant, criticize parents and elders, and cut themselves off from the mainstream community and seek refuge in the traditions and practices of their homelands. They build walls around themselves to create ghettos. They split into factions. They start to see themselves as uniquely guided. They reassure themselves but not the community, which they largely reject. It is possible to do this and we have seen Jews and Christians do the same thing - the Hassidic communities in Europe and America, and Mennonites, Amish, and Mormons in America have all done this.

Others attempt to re-invent themselves as American, Australian, and British Muslims. This causes great anxiety among many since they see assimilation as a direct challenge to their "Muslim" identity. Because they often have difficulty separating Islam from their national cultures, they cannot understand how an American, Australian, or British Islam could even exist at all.

The first step in resolving any problem is to understand it. This is my understanding of the problem. Others will differ. The details are not important. The important thing to realize is that there is a solution an that each of us can find it as individuals, and that each community can also find it together, if we look, talk, and struggle to understand the world and our place in it as Muslims. This is what Muslims have always done. The answer is in the past, and it is in the future.

Salaam,

Abu Marwan

[htDgExh8]

Bismillah
A while ago I posted something like this and was informed that I'm being pessimistic. I see there is clear split within muslim and soon to be ex muslilm community. The arabs in general are useless in facing the challanges. Their culture of complacency and inferiroty complex here in the west makes me think how on earth Islam spread at their hand. They have no concept of social dynamics and often the relegious elite reinforce the same attitude via a reactionary approach. I for one think Secularism at large won the battle at least for now. Relegious elite (non scholarly or psudo scholarly) have fallen and will fall untill they have nothing to show for. If one looks at the social make up, it is only some over zealot youngstars who is suffering from idenity crisis is holding on to some emblem of relegion (hence ism). There is real and present danger of losing a large portion of muslimah (practicing and non practicing) to kuffars. Hence it is not uncommon to find a hijabi with ghair mehram and with non muslim.
The idea of polygomy is frownd upon both by relegious and non relegious (a clear victory for the secularist). So with all the Quran and Sunnah slogan, all I see down fall of a community as the community will soon cease to exist as a community. It says a lot about the community that can look after the weaker sex and its next generation. Deo and non deo will fall and no scholar is going to change this! inteletual bankruptcy at the face of superiror secular discourse and hedzog like syndrom of relegious elite will simply speed up the process of impending doom. 50%+ muslim marriages end up devorce in US and so is in UK. These are not non practicing but practicing. So much for Quran and Sunnah!! Perhaps this community need to be annhialated for betterment of true seekers.
In a pathetic attampt, they build masjeds after masjed but real issue is not addressed just like some sort of drug fix!!
I fear for the muslim and more so for the sisters. This immigrant community so far failed! The last bastion will be Gujistan and it will also die with its surat and bharuch syndrome.
Allahualam

[casinobonuswer]

Nomadic we await a mujadid like you to reform us. Take the batton bro. So tell me can we all start taking bait from you so you will save us all from destruction?

[apodildNoli]

do you say this for the muslims settled in UK or is this highly optimistic observation/anaylsis meant for the muslims in general?

[casinobonuswer]

It is not all dark and gloomy like nomadic is making out and even if this is the case then there is a greater chance of more reward and increasing one's rank in the hereafter. Bro seriously who is your shaykh in taswuff?

[casinobonuswer]

bro Salman I can gurantee you that the Muslims of the UK are generally more observant than their counterparts in most parts of the world. The muslims of the UK are generally the most practicing muslims in the whole western world. You must have noticed that most of the posters on this website are from the UK. This shows something. Obviously we have our fair share of problems no doubt but I don't think it's bad as some people are making it. In fact I would say that the average youngster in the UK is more aware of islam than their counterparts in pakistan for example.

[apodildNoli]

hazrat I have a fair idea about the Muslims in UK and I know that many of them are pracrtising, I have read between the lines while talking to my non-practicing relatives from the UK and it seems that Islam and Islamic scholarship is wellgrounded in the UK...I was merely asking brother nomadic whether he believes this about all the muslim communities of the world in general and I did not mean to agree with him at even if it is just about the UK

[htDgExh8]

There is no shaikh of tassawuf where I live for me to be under his guidance.
you have failed to realise one point is that it is the third generation defines or a turning point for a community.
It is irrlevent to think just because there is more awareness or some sort, it will uplift a community. There is a clear dissconct between the actualisation of relegion and theoratical ones.
It is easy to say because we are more 'practicing' is somehow paint a picture of a community without any real danger. None is denying we in general are more learned! Thats not the point!
A simple litmus test will prove my points: devorce rate, unmarried muslimah, dissatisfaction with relegion after running out zeal, reffering to back home ideological take on relegion and most underlying all these no concerted effort in building community institutes or avenues, the rise of psduo scholars and psudo intelectual and leaders completely oblivious to socio-political and relegious upheavle.
To a great extent the only sustainable community is Murabit - highly interdependent economically, socially, relegiously!
Not like us asian who are seen in mosque only but no futher meaningful contact beside some occoasial event. This immigrant (3rd generation ) is not pure but can't shake of the old model which in reality only worked for 1st/2nd generation. Hence the likes of Tariq Ramadhan makes sense. This is not to say all is ok with his views but lack of critical analysis and solution is not being applied instead rely merley on slogan culture and obsession with hijab, thoab, Aqaid related issue.
I think this is common unless you live in some parts of the world where their is extreme poverty where the focus is primarily on meeting ends meet.
Allahualam

[ppfpooghn]

Assalamu alaikum,

London786 suggests that since a majority of SF active posters appear to be from the UK, then UK Muslims must be more observant than Muslims in other Western countries. This is a startling conclusion.

I have also noticed that many posters here are from the UK. The demographics seem to be more narrow than even that. It seems that this forum is popular with a fairly narrow section of the UK Muslim community. There are probably several reasons for this: recurrent Deobandi / Brelvi contentions may dissuade people who are not interested in Pakistani and Indian controversies; a tendency toward hate speech and takfir - no doubt imported from Pakistan - ensures that many who come leave immediately. Pious posturing of various description (and I realize that this is also a cultural trait of some communities) could chase even more away.

So, it's difficult to see how SF could be a reliable measure of religious commitment among Western Muslims.

Salaam,

Abu Marwan

[ppfpooghn]

Bismillah
A while ago I posted something like this and was informed that I'm being pessimistic. I see there is clear split within muslim and soon to be ex muslilm community.

You raise a lot of interesting points here and I'm sure there are many who agree with much of what you've said. The most important thing you mention is the culture of inferiority that moves people to value what Islam does not value. Western culture, of course, celebrates itself and presents itself as the highest achievement of humanity on the planet. This is normal and we can understand why it is, but we can also see these things from a place that may be hidden from them.

Western ideals focus on a number of things: the primacy of science; tolerance; equality of race; equality of sex. There are reasons why they focus on these things and these reasons may be unexpected if you do not understand the history and culture of these people, rooted in an ancient world that still lives among them even now.

It may be useful to begin with social equality - the liberation of women and the conscious opposition to racism. Western people are very concerned about defending the rights of women and they are quick to measure their own achievements in this regard against those of lesser peoples. This is primarily because women are almost universally reviled in the West. There is a legal infrastructure to support them, and without the coercive power of the state behind them, women would have no chance of achieving anything at all. Western society continues to deprecate women and to regard them as little more than vapid ornaments, useful only for the amusement of men.

Racism, is similarly a central concern because these cultures are fundamentally and irrevocably racist. You do not simply sweep away 2000 years of racial hubris by enacting a law. They are very aggressive in defending the rights of minorities because without this, minorities would be where they have always been.

Foreigners in Europe have never fared very well. For example, revisionist historians and their Zionist friends have succeeded in presenting the Holocaust as a once off freakish accident of nationalist ideology gone bad in the hands of an insane ruler, but this is very far from the case. The wholesale murder of Jews in Europe in the 1940s was only the most recent of this type of event in Western history. Western genocidal violence has had many targets but in Europe it had been most frequently directed against Jews and that for almost two millennium. In North America, state policy directed the annihilation of the native Americans without EVER questioning the moral or ethical implications of this policy. It simply did not occur to them that state directed genocide might be objectionable. They have not changed. They continue to support this type of policy in Palestine, Iraq, Afghanistan... where ever they happen to appear - defending their values to a tee.

Westerners are also concerned with tolerance because they have no history of this either. Throughout their own history, they have hacked and murdered their way back and forth across Europe and the Middle East killing anyone who disagreed with them, and since they never agreed about anything in the first place there was never a shortage of people to chop up into bits, to fuel their bonfires, or to rape and pillage. While they were confined to Europe by their own poverty and ignorance, they did this to one another. When they spilled out of Europe they took their mayhem with them. They outdid even the Mongols.

And as for science, they put their faith in that because they have never had anything even remotely resembling religious faith. They worshiped just about anything imaginable - rocks and trees and stars and forest spirits. They worshiped jinn and the worshiped the dead. They were compelled by Rome to accept Christianity when Rome saw in this a final means of controlling them, but they did not believe even that. They rose up and murdered the pious among them, time after time, never abandoning their primordial superstition and fear. Now they believe only in science, but they imbue even that with crazy mystic hope. The astrologers chart and the fortune cookie can still strike terror in their hearts.

So, Muslims who see in all of this some superior system are being duped big time. We are told that we ought to think critically, and that is right. We ought to think critically first about what they are offering us instead of Islam and when they come to tell us about freedom, and liberty, and human dignity we should be able to respond intelligently to say we have all of that for 14 centuries past and we can teach them something about it if they are interested... but they are not.

Salaam,

Abu Marwan

[iiilizium]

You raise a lot of interesting points here and I'm sure there are many who agree with much of what you've said. The most important thing you mention is the culture of inferiority that moves people to value what Islam does not value. Western culture, of course, celebrates itself and presents itself as the highest achievement of humanity on the planet. This is normal and we can understand why it is, but we can also see these things from a place that may be hidden from them.

Western ideals focus on a number of things: the primacy of science; tolerance; equality of race; equality of sex. There are reasons why they focus on these things and these reasons may be unexpected if you do not understand the history and culture of these people, rooted in an ancient world that still lives among them even now.

It may be useful to begin with social equality - the liberation of women and the conscious opposition to racism. Western people are very concerned about defending the rights of women and they are quick to measure their own achievements in this regard against those of lesser peoples. This is primarily because women are almost universally reviled in the West. There is a legal infrastructure to support them, and without the coercive power of the state behind them, women would have no chance of achieving anything at all. Western society continues to deprecate women and to regard them as little more than vapid ornaments, useful only for the amusement of men.

Racism, is similarly a central concern because these cultures are fundamentally and irrevocably racist. You do not simply sweep away 2000 years of racial hubris by enacting a law. They are very aggressive in defending the rights of minorities because without this, minorities would be where they have always been.

Foreigners in Europe have never fared very well. For example, revisionist historians and their Zionist friends have succeeded in presenting the Holocaust as a once off freakish accident of nationalist ideology gone bad in the hands of an insane ruler, but this is very far from the case. The wholesale murder of Jews in Europe in the 1940s was only the most recent of this type of event in Western history. Western genocidal violence has had many targets but in Europe it had been most frequently directed against Jews and that for almost two millennium. In North America, state policy directed the annihilation of the native Americans without EVER questioning the moral or ethical implications of this policy. It simply did not occur to them that state directed genocide might be objectionable. They have not changed. They continue to support this type of policy in Palestine, Iraq, Afghanistan... where ever they happen to appear - defending their values to a tee.

Westerners are also concerned with tolerance because they have no history of this either. Throughout their own history, they have hacked and murdered their way back and forth across Europe and the Middle East killing anyone who disagreed with them, and since they never agreed about anything in the first place there was never a shortage of people to chop up into bits, to fuel their bonfires, or to rape and pillage. While they were confined to Europe by their own poverty and ignorance, they did this to one another. When they spilled out of Europe they took their mayhem with them. They outdid even the Mongols.

And as for science, they put their faith in that because they have never had anything even remotely resembling religious faith. They worshiped just about anything imaginable - rocks and trees and stars and forest spirits. They worshiped jinn and the worshiped the dead. They were compelled by Rome to accept Christianity when Rome saw in this a final means of controlling them, but they did not believe even that. They rose up and murdered the pious among them, time after time, never abandoning their primordial superstition and fear. Now they believe only in science, but they imbue even that with crazy mystic hope. The astrologers chart and the fortune cookie can still strike terror in their hearts.

So, Muslims who see in all of this some superior system are being duped big time. We are told that we ought to think critically, and that is right. We ought to think critically first about what they are offering us instead of Islam and when they come to tell us about freedom, and liberty, and human dignity we should be able to respond intelligently to say we have all of that for 14 centuries past and we can teach them something about it if they are interested... but they are not.

Salaam,

Abu Marwan

salam alikum,
great reply i think,
in short - they figth for equality, science, against rasism etc ... as they have problem with those values.
Then - step two - they suppose that all others have the same problems (prejudices) therfore they fight against muslims and islam to impose their rules (which they think are the best).


w salam

[ppfpooghn]

salam alikum,
great reply i think,
in short - they figth for equality, science, against rasism etc ... as they have problem with those values.
Then - step two - they suppose that all others have the same problems (prejudices) therfore they fight against muslims and islam to impose their rules (which they think are the best).


w salam

Yes. That's about it. Cultural hubris prevents them from seeing any value in anything outside themselves. Americans actually believe that they invented everything, including the wheel.

There is science behind what I said.

Look at http://www.geert-hofstede.com/

Geert Hosstede is a Dutch social researcher and consultant. His research is in mapping cultural values. At his website compare "Arab World" with "USA" and "UK".

Hosstede postulates five indices: Power Distance; Individualism; Masculinity; Uncertainty Avoidance; and Long Term Orientation.

This is what his Masculinity index returns for "Arab World":


The Masculinity index (MAS), the third highest Hofstede Dimension is 52, only slightly higher than the 50.2 average for all the countries included in the Hofstede MAS Dimension. This would indicate that while women in the Arab World are limited in their rights, it may be due more to Muslim religion rather than a cultural paradigm. This contradicts popular "wisdom" about the region.

Compare "Arab World," above, to this for the US:

The next highest Hofstede Dimension is Masculinity (MAS) with a ranking of 62, compared with a world average of 50. This indicates the country experiences a higher degree of gender differentiation of roles. The male dominates a significant portion of the society and power structure. This situation generates a female population that becomes more assertive and competitive, with women shifting toward the male role model and away from their female role. His explanation for this is not correct. He says that low gender role differentiation in the Arab world is despite Islam, not because of it. He is probably affected by popular notions of Islam as essentially misogynist and repeats a facile explanation. As we both know, Islam expanded and regularized women's position in Arab society rather than restricting it.

Salaam,

Abu Marwan