[emexiagog]

1. Are all the Deobandi scholars of South Africa affiliated with the Majlis ul Ulema or The majlis as it referred to as, or are there other jamaats of scholars as well. What about Maulana Yunus Patel (RA) and Mufti Ibraheem Desai, were they part of the Majlis?

2.Do the South African hanafis have differences (Fiqhi) with the indopak scholars?

[Finkevannon]

1. Are all the Deobandi scholars of South Africa associated with the Majlis ul Ulema or The majlis as it referred to as, or are there other jamaats of scholars as well. What about Maulana Yunus Patel (RA) and Mufti Ibraheem Desai, were they part of the Majlis?

2.Do the South African hanafis have differences (Fiqhi) with the indopak scholars?

As far as I know, "The Majlis" only includes Maulana AS Desai, who writes all the article on the respective website.

There are then various other organization (Jamiatul Ulama, etc.), who gather many other scholars

[conurgenceDen]

of course there are other jamaats as well. as for shaikh yunus patel (may ALLAH elevate his stages)... he did'nt agree with the majlis on a few issues however he personally told my dad that although ml desai is very strict, he takes off his hat for him as he (ml desai) is a man of incredible taqwa and never does anything against the shariah.
ml ebrahim desai...? i really wudn't know coz my family does'nt have any personal contact with him... but you can see from his fatwa's on this forum alone that he too is a very strict aalim (meaning strict on the shariah)

[EmpaccalGah]

1. Are all the Deobandi scholars of South Africa associated with the Majlis ul Ulema or The majlis as it referred to as, or are there other jamaats of scholars as well. What about Maulana Yunus Patel (RA) and Mufti Ibraheem Desai, were they part of the Majlis?

2.Do the South African hanafis have differences (Fiqhi) with the indopak scholars?

Muslim Organisations in South Africa - Theological Boards
http://www.muslim.co.za/organisation...logical_boards

Molana Yunus Patel (ra) was a past president of Jamiatul Ulama KZN, and Mufti Ebrahim Desai is also part of them.

[emexiagog]

As far as I know, "The Majlis" only includes Maulana AS Desai, who writes all the article on the respective website.

There are then various other organization (Jamiatul Ulama, etc.), who gather many other scholars

It says majlis ul ulema so I thought it was a body or something, so what I gather from all the posts is that the ulema are affiliated with Jamiat ul Ulema...to all

But nobody answered question no 2.....perhaps Maulana Abuhajira can answr that question...

[cenRealliat]

of course there are other jamaats as well. as for shaikh yunus patel (may ALLAH elevate his stages)... he did'nt agree with the majlis on a few issues however he personally told my dad that although ml desai is very strict, he takes off his hat for him as he (ml desai) is a man of incredible taqwa and never does anything against the shariah.
ml ebrahim desai...? i really wudn't know coz my family does'nt have any personal contact with him... but you can see from his fatwa's on this forum alone that he too is a very strict aalim (meaning strict on the shariah)

I thought using abusive language was against the shariah?

[conurgenceDen]

I thought using abusive language was against the shariah?

Well, ml desai is an Aalim after all... its very possible that he knows what language is against the shariah and what is in the confines of the shariah. Anyway i was saying what ml yunus (R.A) said, so it may be a good idea to ask him directly.

i hate it when threads start going in this direction... it always ends up into a huge and useless debate and we ignorant laymen start losing respect for the aalim in question and make absurb, sarcastic and mocking comments without realising that the ulama are the family of ALLAH AND WE WILL BE ANSWERABLE FOR THAT WHICH WE SPEAK AND WRITE AGAINST THEM!!!

[emexiagog]

LIKEWISE "ULEMA" WILL ALSO BE RESPONSIBLE FOR WHAT THEY SPEAK AND WRITE....plz I started this thread with the right intention, and there was no kufr concealed in my heart I assure everybody.....I request you to let some real alim answer my other question and then you can debate and argue on whatever you want to...(if the mods allow it)

[KaterinaNJq]

I thought using abusive language was against the shariah?

If one reads some of the targheeb (exhortations) and khutbahs of the sahaabah, given in Fazail Sadaqah, he wouldn't believe a sahaabah said. But they did, and each of them understood Islam better than all of us combined!

Using harsh language ONLY when the Laws of Allah are disobeyed is not wrong at all.

Better to get scolded by an old, grumpy mullah today than face the Infinite Wrath of Al Qahhaar wal Muntaqim(=The Destroyer, The Inflictor of Retribution) tomorrow!!!

[emexiagog]

Well, ml desai is an Aalim after all... its very possible that he knows what language is against the shariah and what is in the confines of the shariah. Anyway i was saying what ml yunus (R.A) said, so it may be a good idea to ask him directly.

i hate it when threads start going in this direction... it always ends up into a huge and useless debate and we ignorant laymen start losing respect for the aalim in question and make absurb, sarcastic and mocking comments without realising that the ulama are the family of ALLAH AND WE WILL BE ANSWERABLE FOR THAT WHICH WE SPEAK AND WRITE AGAINST THEM!!!

had you just answered my questions in the opening post and not written praises of the maulvi whose language and adaab were a serious subject of debate just a couple of days back on another thread, the argument would not have started.....and strictness as I know it is following the safest opinions, having taqwa, and not giving an inch away on the fundamentals and foundations of the Deen due to pressure from others...I know many scholars who are as strict as it gets yet their writings and speeches increase your imaan and conviction, rather than disgusting you or worse, make you burst out laughing...I assure you once again that I started this thread to learn some stuff unrelated to that discussion on the taadud thread the other day

[conurgenceDen]

okay you've made your intentions more than clear... but can you plz tell me what argumentive about my reply to your post (post 3)? this is really an innocent question, as i can assure you that post was neither meant to start an argument nor question your intentions of starting this thread.

My second post (post 7) was a reply to quandary who was a bit sarcastic in his post... thats when i said that i hate it when threads go towards this direction. reason being is that ppl who don't have barely any knowledge of islaam will start openly disrespecting the Aalim in question. i do know that the ulama will be questioned about what they say as well, but i haven't seen a thread being made about a general person and the ulama talking, joking, questioning and mocking that person. of course if the example of a certain person is brought up and ppl want to know whether his doings are correct then its the duty of the ulama to answer from an islaamic perspective.

Your intentions weren't questioned anywhere by me. And i hope that my intentions are as clear as yours now.

also i would like to point out that this thread was going pretty decent and respecfully until quandary's remark.

i apologise if my posts have offended anybody or came across as a personal insult... and from now on i intend staying out of these type of debates

[emexiagog]

i'll get back to this thread in a few hours...i have to leave now

[uniopaypamp]

had you just answered my questions in the opening post and not written praises of the maulvi whose language and adaab were a serious subject of debate just a couple of days back on another thread, the argument would not have started.....and strictness as I know it is following the safest opinions, having taqwa, and not giving an inch away on the fundamentals and foundations of the Deen due to pressure from others...I know many scholars who are as strict as it gets yet their writings and speeches increase your imaan and conviction, rather than disgusting you or worse, make you burst out laughing...I assure you once again that I started this thread to learn some stuff unrelated to that discussion on the taadud thread the other day

Dear Brother Salman

I humbly request you to fully read Maulana A S Desai's works with an objective mind. if you do this you will realise that his anger is only when it is addressing somebody who is deliberately trying to contort and reinterpret the Shariah.

You state that his writings disgusts you. Pray, please provide me with examples of where his writings have caused disgust to you? Is it simply his language that is targeted towards those who wish to distort Allah's Law or is it something else? Please also inform me when you have ever seen a writing of his that he has attacked somebody for personal reasons?

Brother Salman, have you ever visited him and spent time in his company? If not then if Allah grants you the opportunity to visit South Africa then please visit him and speak with him. your misconceptions will be alleviated.

I also apologise for derailing this thread.

I will finish with this quote of Imaam Ghazzali which I feel is very beneficial,

“The Salaf of the Ummah of Sayyiduna Muhammad agreed to condemn people with deviant ideas, and to abandon them and cut relations with them, and to be hard in rebuking them, but to be mild in disagreements of juristic details.” (Mustasfa, Pg 350).

[emexiagog]

okay you've made your intentions more than clear... but can you plz tell me what argumentive about my reply to your post (post 3)? this is really an innocent question, as i can assure you that post was neither meant to start an argument nor question your intentions of starting this thread.

My second post (post 7) was a reply to quandary who was a bit sarcastic in his post... thats when i said that i hate it when threads go towards this direction. reason being is that ppl who don't have barely any knowledge of islaam will start openly disrespecting the Aalim in question. i do know that the ulama will be questioned about what they say as well, but i haven't seen a thread being made about a general person and the ulama talking, joking, questioning and mocking that person. of course if the example of a certain person is brought up and ppl want to know whether his doings are correct then its the duty of the ulama to answer from an islaamic perspective.

Your intentions weren't questioned anywhere by me. And i hope that my intentions are as clear as yours now.

also i would like to point out that this thread was going pretty decent and respecfully until quandary's remark.

i apologise if my posts have offended anybody or came across as a personal insult... and from now on i intend staying out of these type of debates

"had you just answered my questions in the opening post and not written praises of the maulvi whose language and adaab were a serious subject of debate just a couple of days back on another thread, the argument would not have started"...this is what i wrote in my last post, and you can see that I did not say that you were being argumentative, rather your praise for the maulana of how he is strict and all and following shariah strictly was a little provoking itself, albeit unintentionally, given that the person's writings were debated just a couple of days back and this provided a further opportunity for arguing, to tell the truth, when I saw post no 3 the first time, I was about to reply and then I stopped myself, I admit that my mistake was not telling bro quandary to argue or criticise the maulana saab, and for that I apologise....It seems that you are a follower of the Maulana saab in question, and I will refrain from commenting on him again as I understand how it is when someone critises your teacher/sheikh...I request you to read the bit about strictness that I wrote though and see if it makes some sense...

I personally respect scholars no matter how stict they are, However If I see that someone is using the language that can drive away the masses from the ulema rather than bring them closer, then this really is a problem that needs to be addressed...most ulema I know are gems ....No further argument from my side...

[emexiagog]

Dear Brother Salman

I humbly request you to fully read Maulana A S Desai's works with an objective mind. if you do this you will realise that his anger is only when it is addressing somebody who is deliberately trying to contort and reinterpret the Shariah.

You state that his writings disgusts you. Pray, please provide me with examples of where his writings have caused disgust to you? Is it simply his language that is targeted towards those who wish to distort Allah's Law or is it something else? Please also inform me when you have ever seen a writing of his that he has attacked somebody for personal reasons?

Brother Salman, have you ever visited him and spent time in his company? If not then if Allah grants you the opportunity to visit South Africa then please visit him and speak with him. your misconceptions will be alleviated.

I also apologise for derailing this thread.

I will finish with this quote of Imaam Ghazzali which I feel is very beneficial,

“The Salaf of the Ummah of Sayyiduna Muhammad agreed to condemn people with deviant ideas, and to abandon them and cut relations with them, and to be hard in rebuking them, but to be mild in disagreements of juristic details.” (Mustasfa, Pg 350).

...brother I will reply to this in a while..

[conurgenceDen]

"had you just answered my questions in the opening post and not written praises of the maulvi whose language and adaab were a serious subject of debate just a couple of days back on another thread, the argument would not have started"...this is what i wrote in my last post, and you can see that I did not say that you were being argumentative, rather your praise for the maulana of how he is strict and all and following shariah strictly was a little provoking itself, albeit unintentionally, given that the person's writings were debated just a couple of days back and this provided a further opportunity for arguing, to tell the truth, when I saw post no 3 the first time, I was about to reply and then I stopped myself, I admit that my mistake was not telling bro quandary to argue or criticise the maulana saab, and for that I apologise....It seems that you are a follower of the Maulana saab in question, and I will refrain from commenting on him again as I understand how it is when someone critises your teacher/sheikh...I request you to read the bit about strictness that I wrote though and see if it makes some sense...

I personally respect scholars no matter how stict they are, However If I see that someone is using the language that can drive away the masses from the ulema rather than bring them closer, then this really is a problem that needs to be addressed...most ulema I know are gems ....No further argument from my side...

I'm glad this argument is squashed. no more from my side either...

i'll be honest and say that i apperently do not have the ability to follow ml desai and neither is he my ustadh nor shaikh - however , i do have alot of respect for him and find it difficult to allow people to critisize him without getting upset. and in reply to your last sentence... inspite of his sterness alot of people i know personally have changed their lives and are actually close to him! mat ALLAH TA'AALA give us the hidaayah to appreciate these gems (the righteous ulama) while we have the opportunity.

[Petwrenny]

Please read this post:

http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/show...l=1#post637218

[uniopaypamp]

@Brother SeekerofGuidance

May Allah Ta'ala reward you my brother.

[cenRealliat]

In short, the assertion is: it is okay for this aalim to do it.

Query: is it okay for other aalims to do that?

Second query: how much knowledge is necessary before you can start accusing people of being 'ulema-e-soo' and 'peddlers of falsehood' and 'people with mashed-up brains full of concentrated jahl?'

Does one get a certificate?

Some of this is rather comical; "How dare anyone criticize this aalim who spends a lot of his time criticizing other ulema!" why? "Because he's right!"

[chzvacmyye]

In short, the assertion is: it is okay for this aalim to do it.

Query: is it okay for other aalims to do that?

Second query: how much knowledge is necessary before you can start accusing people of being 'ulema-e-soo' and 'peddlers of falsehood' and 'people with mashed-up brains full of concentrated jahl?'

Does one get a certificate?

Some of this is rather comical; "How dare anyone criticize this aalim who spends a lot of his time criticizing other ulema!" why? "Because he's right!"

Perhaps the answer is contained in the principle "every action depends on the intention".
We need to check our own intentions before making assertions of your own and then terming them "comical". You have obviously not followed the link from "seeker of guidance". Your own assertion of what is comical may rebound on yourself as your statement in itself appears impetuous.

As regards your second query as to how much grounding in knowledge is required then study the writings of the salaf of the khairul Quroon and the level of taqwa and expertise required will be unfolded. Perhaps and Insha Allah you will find out what sort of a certificate is required in matters of Ilm and Amr bil Ma aroof / Nahi anil munkar.

Wabil lahe Taufeeq wal hidayah