[StizePypemype]

Assalamualaikum,

Dear Learned brothers,

I have a serious problem. A sister I know is questioning the hadith and the Sunnah of Rasulullah s.a.w. I'm going to qoute here her facebook postings on her wall. Please advise me on how to reply. She even has some of her friends defending her stance, friends I believe are also influencing her thoughts to go astray.

Post 1

''Following the Prophet's example means following his morals, his intelligence, his patience, honor, leadership, kindness and alot more. It is not literally following how he dressed, how he brushed his teeth, riding a camel and alot of other cultural and obviously era-based actions. Sunnah means example. Surely we have enough common sense to understand the difference?''

Post 2

''I would highly recommend reading the biographies of the Prophet. In them we learn that his sole aim was to spread the message he received, i.e. the Quran. How he lived his life as an example according to it. This is the true meaning of Sunn...ah. What I see is many people are on the verge of worshipping him by literally following publications of his sayings without investigating how it is related to the Quran, even glorifying him, instead of solely surrendering to the one God. He is a human being, like any of us, who makes mistakes. Being a human means he also does actions that are time-based, applying principles and god-given laws to the time he was living in. He didnt drive a car, or eat with forks and knives, or had flushing toilets - does this mean that we too must do the same? Obviously not. Therefore we must look at how he thinks, his reasons, his application of the Quran in his time and use the same analogy in our time.

The Quran states several times that there is only one law and one hadith (and this word was used), and that is God's laws. But it also states to obey the messenger. So what do these two messages mean together. Does this mean that we must also wash, dress, even urinate the way he did? Isn't this insulting? Obeying the messenger obviously means that the messages that he gives must come from the Quran, and quran alone. This is why throughout the Quran we read that there is only one law, god’s law. At the same time, obey the messenger. I have never seen anywhere in the Quran which says that there are two sources of law. Yet, many seem to follow certain sayings of his which do not corroborate with the Quran. In fact, in the Quran, God forbids Muhammad and anyone to create their own laws. I invite everyone to investigate and seek to find truth in this matter for themselves.

For example, the quran says specifically that we are forbidden only pork, carrion and blood – many times. But we hear of people saying you also cannot eat alot of other things like snakes, clawed animals etc. Not that anyone would want to eat these things anyway, but the point is that there are so many many rules now attributed to the prophet, or others who are so called "knowledgeable" and treated as law. Where did these rules come from?? I thought we are only supposed to follow ONE law from ONE God – isn’t this the message reiterated many times in the Quran?

I believe that God knows our hearts, God is aware of our intentions, and our sincerity in doing things. That's why I think intention, if always placed with God, we will naturally do good, be kind, dress appropriately, generous in thoughts, lead with humility, etc.

I really hope we follow the example of the Prophet in this, instead of focusing on rituals he supposedly did at his time, as an Arab man in the 7th century. Obey the messenger in so far as the message of the Quran goes. That is why it is of essential importance that we read the QURAN FIRST before reading hadith. Always read in context. Have a questioning mind. Otherwise, we are blind, deaf, dumb. The Quran asks us many times to reason, judge, think. Yet I have been accused before of questioning my faith.

On the contrary. My Iman is stronger because of the questions I have explored.
Never ever forget the prophet was just a man, who worshipped God alone, who followed the quran. WE must do the same. Follow his example in this thoughts and CHARACTER, but dont worship him. There is only ONE god, ONE law.''

Post 3

''quote from Al-Quran

Say, (O Muhammed) "I am no more than a human being like you...." (Quran 18:110)

Also, there is no distinction among the prophets
...
“Say (O Muslims): We believe in God and that which is revealed to us and that which was revealed to Abraham and Ishmael, and Isaac and Jacob, and their children, and that which Moses and Jesus received and that the prophets received from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them and unto Him we have surrendered.” (Quran 2:136)

Many times in the Quran, Allah swt warns, corrects, guides the PRophet, showing that he is fallible like us. He has made several mistakes, which had to be corrected by Allah as in the Quran. Also read his biography when he got angry with a passerby, he was sad over something he shouldnt be, and many other incidences. This shows he is subject to the same passions, temptations, mistakes as we are. However, he is guided by Allah.

He makes mistakes, otherwise, he would be perfect, but only Allah is perfect.

There is only one revelation at the time of the prophet muhammad. And that is the Quran which was recited by him, and recorded and memorised by his companions. He did not have two sets of sayings. He is not a magical person. I can also show you verses in teh Quran to CATEGORICALLY say this.

Thanks for your comment though. Would be happy to show yo u more, if yo u are open..''

Post 4

''More proof that following the prophet's example is alot broader than what he have been doing.

Two authoritative books on hadiths, Muslim and Musnad by Ýbni Hanbal, founder of the Hanbali religious sect, make the following comment: “Take down... nothing other than the verses revealed. Anyone that may have written any of my sayings, let him destroy it” (Muslim, Sahih-i Muslim Kitab-ý Zühd, Hanbal, Musnad). The hadith quoted by Darimi is as follows: “The companions of the Prophet asked him permission to take down his sayings. They were refused” (Darimi, es-Sunen). The hadith transmitted by Alm Hatib is as follows: “While we were engrossed copying the hadiths, the Prophet came and asked what we were doing. We are copying your sayings, we replied. Is your intention to create a book other than God’s Book? People that preceded you swerved from the straight path because they dared write books other than God’s Book” (Al Hatib, Takyid). And Tirmizi had this to say: “We asked permission to copy the sayings of God’s messenger, but he refused to give it” (Tirmizi, es-Sünen, K. Ilm).

Let's follow fact, rather than opinion. Let's be logical rather than literal.

I do not reject hadith, i just dont think it should be followed literally. Sunnah, means way of life, or example. Otherwise, we should have more pahala by living in the desert and brushing our teeth the way he did? Does this even make sense? Whoever said this? Arent we creating our own rules?

Let us question for the sake of truth, rather than blindly following man-made rules. This is what i'm saying.''

I hope the learned brothers here can assist it effectively leading her back to the right path Insya-Allah. Unfortunately, she is a relative of mine and that is why I urgently need advice brothers. Thank you, Jazakallah.

[arrismVam]

Salaamualykum,

I think it's about intentions brother. Those who intention is to follow our prophet that person will get rewarded for it, and intentions go with correct actions. Which is why we choose to learn how he did something and then find ourselves doing that thing. The mistakes that the sister state our prophet made I would like to have examples of those because I heard from a lecturer once that our prophet did istighfaar about more than 100 times daily, not because of "his" sins but to let the people follow in repentance and making istighfaar habitual because of "our" many sins. So what the lecturer said was who are we in comparison to our prophet . Then he also said that it was narrated that the prophet replied that should he not be a greatful servant. And, this is our example!!! Should we not be greatful servants of Allah? Questioning is the way of developing one's intellect (so don't be alarmed) but that sister, your relative, needs to take some classes on the meaning of sunnah and it's importance to understand love for the prophet , from my knowledge she has misunderstand some essentials by putting down those who follow those aspects that she considers not practical or logical in today's world. There are so many classes being offered online, if offline is not an option.

[StizePypemype]

Jazakallah brother Nomadic. I posted your links to them and the sister and her ''friend'' who I believe is the one influecing her responsed as below:

1. 59:7 has been abused to death as a justification of using hadith books as an authoritative source. But no one seems to want to address why the Prophet forbade the writings of his non-Quranic words, and this ban was never litfed even after ...the completion of Sura 9's revelation, which was the last Sura revealed. After the prophet's death, even his companions forbade the circulation of hadith books. And all these are recorded in hadith books themselves. I'll put it up for your eyes to see.

59:7 was supposed to be refering to the Quran. Whatever God revealed to him, we as believers have to take and not dispute it. Hadiths weren't revelations.

In any case, the prophet is not the hadith books. To take 4:59 and others with "Obey God and His Messenger" to mean "Obey Quran and Hadith" is a gross mistake in interpretation. Muslims cannot obey God without obeying the Messenger, because through the Messenger, God's words were delivered. But this doesn't mean everything the prophet said were God's words, that is blasphemy. Attribute to God what belongs to God, and attribute to the prophet what belonged to him.

Which raises another question, how sure are "we" that all the words in hadith books were actually said by him? We had millions of fabrications, from which we have them "filtered" into 6 Sahih books, of them Muslim and Bukhari's were considered the bests, further still, only 40 ahadith were considered Qudsi. What is all this if not conjectures? What did God say about those who follow "mere conjectures"? Are we putting aside what God actually said in the Quran, in favour of the alleged "sayings of the prophet"?

Next, how come of the thousands of ahadith compiled in these hadith books, not 1/2 of those thousands came from the 4 rightly guided Caliph? Weren't they supposedly the ones who spent more time with the prophet, the closests -- the ones, if among others, had more to convey what the prophet said in his lifetime?

What about the ahadith from Shi'a sources? Suddenly they're all invalid because of political reasons? Do we not see now these are part of the evil, of breaking up religion into sects? God said to Muhammad: 6:159

VERILY, as for those who have broken the unity of their faith and have become sects - thou hast nothing to do with them.

I therefore, following the prophet's actual Sunnah, want nothing to do with people who supports the division of Islam into sects. I see more reason in breaking these sectarian walls, and one of the ways is by questioning the authority of its source: hadith books.

Abu Bakr, the first caliph said the wise words: Speak to those who would like you to transmit hadiths in the following way: “Behold! God’s book is with us, abide by what has been made lawful for you therein and avoid what has been prohibited". Zahabi, Tezkiratul Huffaz, Bukhari

Did I just quote Bukhari's book? What happened there? I doubt the same conflict would happen if God protects hadith books from mistakes and contradictions.

We never pay attention to details like this, yet we we get angry for not being taken seriously. Seriously?

2. thanks. You took the words right out of my mouth. In my investigations and search.. I found what you said to be true. In fact, many who sincerely searched, with no preconceptions found the same things.

I think people need to search fo...r truth with a blank slate first, not try to justify what they already believe.

3. By the way, there are websites and books for all points of view. So, if you believe in any ideology at all, you can find numerous sources, and very reputable ones to support your views. MAny scholars disagree with each other and argue oppos...ing points of view. WHO to follow then?

So I urge anyone who wants to seek the truth of any matter to go to source, think, have a set of objective criteria, be discerning. Don't just accept something a scholar or any other human being said without investigating.

Every human being is obligated to seek truth and believe with his heart, not just blindly following. On the day of judgement, we answer for ourselves. Scholars are no more human than we are. God is within all of us. Ask Allah for guidance. NOT scholars.

4. Some quotes from hadith.. and these are from sahih books. Please judge the veracity of these statements.

Hadith: The earth rests upon a fish. Those whose destination is paradise will in the first place eat from the liver of this fish.
Bukhar...i

Hadith: Women’s devotion and intellect are defective.
Sahihi Bukhari

Hadith: There are three things that are inauspicious: a woman, a house and a horse.
Abu Davud, Týb, Muslim, Salam, Bukhari, Nikah

Hadith: “The dead will suffer for the tears of his/her family will shed for him/her.”
Bukhari, Jemiz

Contradiction with Quran:
38 – No soul bears sins of another soul.
53 The Star, 38

Hadith: A group of people from the Urayna and Ukala tribes came to Medina and were converted into Islam. As they had been affected by the changing weather, the Prophet suggested they drink camel urine. The men scattered the camels and killed the shepherd. The Prophet had his men catch them and cut off their hands and feet, remove their eyes from their sockets and let them perish in the desert. When we attempted to give them some water, the Prophet thwarted us from our attempt.”
Bukhari, Hanbal.

Hmm.. the prophet was cruel?? Hard to believe.. but its in sahih bukhari

Contradictions between hadith..

The first contradictory hadith: Drawing blood violates a fast.
Tirmizi Fast, Abu Davud Fast, Bukhari Fast.

The second contradictory hadith: Drawing blood was administered to the Prophet while observing the fast.
Abu Davud Fast, Tirmizi Fast, Bukhari Medicine.

Should i continue??

The verdict is clear... only the QURAN IS CONSISTENT and MANY SCIENTISTS CONVERTED because of the quran. Not the same can be said for hadith... and these are SAHIH hadith.

BE CAREFUL of following blindly.

5. Only from hadith books do we get the prophet imaged into a misogynist saying things unwise, unbecoming of the alleged claim that he emulated the Quran. This too only reinforces the "oppositions" claim that the Quran is a violent, sexist book. Astaghfirullah!

I do hope the other brothers here can help as well before these two are led astray by the whisperings of doubt by shaitan. Please do give advise and help brothers and how to bring them back to the right path, Jazakallah.

[DINAKuncher]

Jazakallah brother Nomadic. I posted your links to them and the sister and her ''friend'' who I believe is the one influecing her responsed as below:

1. 59:7 has been abused to death as a justification of using hadith books as an authoritative source. But no one seems to want to address why the Prophet forbade the writings of his non-Quranic words, and this ban was never litfed even after ...the completion of Sura 9's revelation, which was the last Sura revealed. After the prophet's death, even his companions forbade the circulation of hadith books. And all these are recorded in hadith books themselves. I'll put it up for your eyes to see.

59:7 was supposed to be refering to the Quran. Whatever God revealed to him, we as believers have to take and not dispute it. Hadiths weren't revelations.

In any case, the prophet is not the hadith books. To take 4:59 and others with "Obey God and His Messenger" to mean "Obey Quran and Hadith" is a gross mistake in interpretation. Muslims cannot obey God without obeying the Messenger, because through the Messenger, God's words were delivered. But this doesn't mean everything the prophet said were God's words, that is blasphemy. Attribute to God what belongs to God, and attribute to the prophet what belonged to him.

Which raises another question, how sure are "we" that all the words in hadith books were actually said by him? We had millions of fabrications, from which we have them "filtered" into 6 Sahih books, of them Muslim and Bukhari's were considered the bests, further still, only 40 ahadith were considered Qudsi. What is all this if not conjectures? What did God say about those who follow "mere conjectures"? Are we putting aside what God actually said in the Quran, in favour of the alleged "sayings of the prophet"?

Next, how come of the thousands of ahadith compiled in these hadith books, not 1/2 of those thousands came from the 4 rightly guided Caliph? Weren't they supposedly the ones who spent more time with the prophet, the closests -- the ones, if among others, had more to convey what the prophet said in his lifetime?

What about the ahadith from Shi'a sources? Suddenly they're all invalid because of political reasons? Do we not see now these are part of the evil, of breaking up religion into sects? God said to Muhammad: 6:159

VERILY, as for those who have broken the unity of their faith and have become sects - thou hast nothing to do with them.

I therefore, following the prophet's actual Sunnah, want nothing to do with people who supports the division of Islam into sects. I see more reason in breaking these sectarian walls, and one of the ways is by questioning the authority of its source: hadith books.

Abu Bakr, the first caliph said the wise words: Speak to those who would like you to transmit hadiths in the following way: “Behold! God’s book is with us, abide by what has been made lawful for you therein and avoid what has been prohibited". Zahabi, Tezkiratul Huffaz, Bukhari

Did I just quote Bukhari's book? What happened there? I doubt the same conflict would happen if God protects hadith books from mistakes and contradictions.

We never pay attention to details like this, yet we we get angry for not being taken seriously. Seriously?

2. thanks. You took the words right out of my mouth. In my investigations and search.. I found what you said to be true. In fact, many who sincerely searched, with no preconceptions found the same things.

I think people need to search fo...r truth with a blank slate first, not try to justify what they already believe.

3. By the way, there are websites and books for all points of view. So, if you believe in any ideology at all, you can find numerous sources, and very reputable ones to support your views. MAny scholars disagree with each other and argue oppos...ing points of view. WHO to follow then?

So I urge anyone who wants to seek the truth of any matter to go to source, think, have a set of objective criteria, be discerning. Don't just accept something a scholar or any other human being said without investigating.

Every human being is obligated to seek truth and believe with his heart, not just blindly following. On the day of judgement, we answer for ourselves. Scholars are no more human than we are. God is within all of us. Ask Allah for guidance. NOT scholars.

4. Some quotes from hadith.. and these are from sahih books. Please judge the veracity of these statements.

Hadith: The earth rests upon a fish. Those whose destination is paradise will in the first place eat from the liver of this fish.
Bukhar...i

Hadith: Women’s devotion and intellect are defective.
Sahihi Bukhari

Hadith: There are three things that are inauspicious: a woman, a house and a horse.
Abu Davud, Týb, Muslim, Salam, Bukhari, Nikah

Hadith: “The dead will suffer for the tears of his/her family will shed for him/her.”
Bukhari, Jemiz

Contradiction with Quran:
38 – No soul bears sins of another soul.
53 The Star, 38

Hadith: A group of people from the Urayna and Ukala tribes came to Medina and were converted into Islam. As they had been affected by the changing weather, the Prophet suggested they drink camel urine. The men scattered the camels and killed the shepherd. The Prophet had his men catch them and cut off their hands and feet, remove their eyes from their sockets and let them perish in the desert. When we attempted to give them some water, the Prophet thwarted us from our attempt.”
Bukhari, Hanbal.

Hmm.. the prophet was cruel?? Hard to believe.. but its in sahih bukhari

Contradictions between hadith..

The first contradictory hadith: Drawing blood violates a fast.
Tirmizi Fast, Abu Davud Fast, Bukhari Fast.

The second contradictory hadith: Drawing blood was administered to the Prophet while observing the fast.
Abu Davud Fast, Tirmizi Fast, Bukhari Medicine.

Should i continue??

The verdict is clear... only the QURAN IS CONSISTENT and MANY SCIENTISTS CONVERTED because of the quran. Not the same can be said for hadith... and these are SAHIH hadith.

BE CAREFUL of following blindly.

5. Only from hadith books do we get the prophet imaged into a misogynist saying things unwise, unbecoming of the alleged claim that he emulated the Quran. This too only reinforces the "oppositions" claim that the Quran is a violent, sexist book. Astaghfirullah!

I do hope the other brothers here can help as well before these two are led astray by the whisperings of doubt by shaitan. Please do give advise and help brothers and how to bring them back to the right path, Jazakallah.

Unfortunately they will fall into the category of people who only follow Quran and not hadith as predicated as a calamity near the end of time.

Shame

[Aleksis]

Unfortunately they will fall into the category of people who only follow Quran and not hadith as predicated as a calamity near the end of time.

Shame

Honestly, from the person's words, it sounds like a lost cause. I don't mean no effort should be made in correcting her, but from my experience, she sounds like she's already decided and will obstinately stick to her guns. She has a way of life that she has justified in these beliefs and to challenge her beliefs is to challenge her way of life. She likely won't be able to even consider giving up that way of life which she has gone to such trouble to rationalize and justify. I hope I'm wrong.

There's two aspects of her way of life that might be relevant here.

1) Major issues - She has been conditioned to accept adultery and apostasy (obviously not on her own part) and can't come to terms with the had punishments for those crimes in the Shariah.

In this case, there is a possibility of her coming around if one uses lots of reason and historical references.

2) #1 and Minor issues - Usually the way of dress or the relations with the opposite sex as well as pop culture in media (TV, music, etc). If her "liberalness" with hadith is really extreme, it could have included #1 and grown to include this. This is what I meant by lost cause. These motivations are usually a little more hidden and not easily discernible.


I hate to say this, but people's intentions can RARELY be taken at face value. The answer isn't to poke around in their business, it's to leave them alone, do what you can, and mind your business. But if she is family, you have more of an obligation.


All sorts of questions are raised. What sort of Islamic scholars has she been listening to or reading? What non-Islamic materials or scholars? What are her friends and associates like? What were her views previously and how have they evolved over time? There's so much more going behind the scenes there than simply what she has written.

Or, the answer could be simple. Maybe she was just never educated on religion, tried to educate herself, and wound up in this predicament. Her parents and family/friends/community would be blameworthy because the damage might not be easily undone, if at all. Once your children go astray, it's often too little, too late. All you can do is pray, stick to your guns (as the saying goes), and be as patient as possible without driving them away. Each person and their temperament are different.

In medicine, this might be like trying to diagnose a troublesome case. Or it could be like a strategy game, where you have to poke around and do some reconnaissance to see just how far she will go in defense of her views.

I have seen people who start off saying the exact same things turn very vitriolic when cornered on their beliefs and practically start shouting kufr. Do not corner her. If she's purposely leading many others astray, you might have no choice. The thing to remember is, whatever comes out of her mouth was already in her heart or on the cusp of it. Still, it's best not to provoke people into apostating by words.

[Aleksis]

If you want to debate with her friend, I suggest reading through all of these discussions at least once, then re-reading the friend's response and going from there. These should give an idea of rebuttals to popular munkireen-e-hadees arguments.

Click "parent" to see the posts above (since most of these are from the middle of discussions).

http://www.reddit.com/r/islam/commen...avalec_on_the/
http://www.reddit.com/r/islam/commen...idered/c11ogsw
http://www.reddit.com/r/islam/commen...uments/c152nt6
http://www.reddit.com/r/islam/commen...uments/c152l0h
http://www.reddit.com/r/islam/commen...uments/c15fz0p
http://www.reddit.com/r/islam/commen...uments/c15gp1i
http://www.reddit.com/r/islam/commen...uments/c15lh6b
http://www.reddit.com/r/islam/commen...uments/c15m9d6
http://www.reddit.com/r/islam/commen...uments/c15mnn2
http://www.reddit.com/r/islam/commen...uments/c15mno6
http://www.reddit.com/r/islam/commen...pdated/c15ow6e
http://www.reddit.com/r/islam/commen..._study/c1cvba4
http://www.reddit.com/r/islam/commen...vey_to/c1ciwhp
http://www.reddit.com/r/islam/commen...hority/c1c5khf
http://www.reddit.com/r/islam/commen...hority/c1c5vd6
http://www.reddit.com/r/islam/commen...hority/c1c5zti

[StizePypemype]

Jazakallah brother Dhul-Qarnayn. Insya-Allah I will read through the discussions above. From my knowledge of her, it's reason two, the Minor issues, mainly the issue of hijab as she does not wear it. Her mother is a revert and as such was never properly educated and her family has always kept a distance from the rest of the family. Sorry, I forgot to note that post 1 and 5 are from her friend and posts 2 to 4 are from her.

[Aleksis]

Jazakallah brother Dhul-Qarnayn. Insya-Allah I will read through the discussions above. From my knowledge of her, it's reason two, the Minor issues, mainly the issue of hijab as she does not wear it. Her mother is a revert and as such was never properly educated and her family has always kept a distance from the rest of the family. Sorry, I forgot to note that post 1 and 5 are from her friend and posts 2 to 4 are from her.

Well in that case, the good news is she at least still tries to justify her actions with religion. The bad news is those actions will be every hard to give up or change.

[AndyScouchek]

Assalaam Alaikum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuh,
A to Post 1: There are degrees in the Practices of the Prophet (PBUH): some are compulsory; these may not be given up. This sort are described in detail in the Illustrious Shari’a. They are incontestable and can in no way be changed. Another sort are voluntary, and these are of two sorts:
One sort are those Practices of the Prophet (PBUH) that concern worship. They too are described in the books of the Shari’a, and to change them is innovation. The other sort are called “conduct” (Adab), and are mentioned in the books of the Prophet’s biography. Opposition to them cannot be called innovation, but it is opposition of a sort to the Prophet’s conduct and means not benefiting from their light and true courtesy. This sort is to follow the Noble Prophet’s (PBUH) actions in customary, natural acts and dealings, which are known through unanimous reports. For example, there are numerous Practices showing the conduct of speaking, and explaining the principles of the conduct of eating, drinking, and sleeping, and concerning social intercourse. Practices of this sort are called “conduct.” One who follows this conduct transforms his habitual actions into worship and receives significant effulgence from the conduct. Practising the smallest aspect of such conduct recalls the Noble Prophet (PBUH), and imparts a light to the heart.

A to Post 2: The verse,
Say: “If you do love God, follow me: God will love you
proclaims in definite fashion just how necessary and important it is to follow the Practices of the Prophet (PBUH). Yes, among the syllogisms of logic, this verse is the most powerful and certain of the sort called hypothetical or conditional syllogisms. It is as follows:
As an example of a hypothetical syllogism it is said in logic: “If the sun comes out, it will be daytime.” For a positive result it is said: “The sun has come out. It therefore points to the conclusion that it is now daytime.” For a negative result, it is said: “It is not daytime. One therefore draws the conclusion that the sun has not come out.” According to logic, these two conclusions, negative and positive, are definite.
In just the same way, the above verse says: “If you love God, you will follow God’s Beloved. If you do not follow him, it points to the conclusion that you do not love God.” If a person loves God, it entails following the Practices of God’s Beloved. Yes, one who believes in Almighty God will certainly obey Him. And the most acceptable, the most direct, and the shortest among the ways of obeying Him is without doubt the way God’s Beloved showed and followed.
Yes, it is necessary and self-evident that the All-Generous One of Beauty, Who fills the universe with so many bounties, should want thanks from conscious creatures in return for the bounties. And clearly that All-Wise One of Glory, Who adorns the universe with so many miracles of art, will make the most excellent of conscious creatures His addressee and interpreter, and herald and leader of His servants. And certainly and self-evidently that All-Beauteous One of Perfection, Who makes the universe reflect the innumerable manifestations of His beauty and perfections, will give the most perfect worshipful stance to the one who is the most comprehensive and perfect measure and means of displaying His beauty, perfection, Names, and art, which He clearly loves and wants to display; He will make his conduct a fine example to others and encourage them to follow him so that his fine conduct may appear in others too.
A to Post 3 :All the states and acts of the Noble Messenger (Upon whom be blessings and peace) testified to his veracity and prophethood, but not all of them had to be miraculous. For God Almighty sent him in the form of a human being so that he might be a guide and leader to human beings in their social affairs, and in the acts and deeds by means of which they attain happiness in both worlds; and so that he might disclose to human beings the wonders of Divine art and His disposive power that underlie all occurrences and are in appearance customary, but in reality are miracles of Divine power. If, then, he had abandoned the human state in his acts and become extra-ordinary in all aspects, he could not have been a leader, or have instructed human beings with his acts, states, and conduct.
A to Post 4: The Most Noble Prophet (Upon whom be blessings and peace) said: “Whoever adheres to my Practices when my Community is corrupted shall receive the reward of a hundred martyrs.”
Yes, following the Practices of the Prophet is certainly most valuable. And at times when innovations are prevalent following them is even more valuable. And particularly when the Prophet’s Community is corrupted, to comply with a small matter of conduct of the Practices signifies a powerful belief and fear of God. Following the Practices directly recalls the Noble Prophet (Upon whom be blessings and peace), and that recollection and remembrance is transformed into recollection of the Divine Presence. The moment the Practices are complied with in even the least significant dealings, in the conduct of eating, drinking, or sleeping, such habitual, natural acts become meritorious acts of worship in compliance with the Shari’a. For through such commonplace actions a person thinks of following the Noble Prophet (Upon whom be blessings and peace) and conceives of them as conduct of the Shari’a. Then he recalls that he is the owner of the Shari’a. And from that his heart turns to Almighty God, the True Lawgiver, and he gains a sort of sense of the Divine Presence and worship.

Assalamualaikum,

Dear Learned brothers,

I have a serious problem. A sister I know is questioning the hadith and the Sunnah of Rasulullah s.a.w. I'm going to qoute here her facebook postings on her wall. Please advise me on how to reply. She even has some of her friends defending her stance, friends I believe are also influencing her thoughts to go astray.

Post 1

''Following the Prophet's example means following his morals, his intelligence, his patience, honor, leadership, kindness and alot more. It is not literally following how he dressed, how he brushed his teeth, riding a camel and alot of other cultural and obviously era-based actions. Sunnah means example. Surely we have enough common sense to understand the difference?''

Post 2

''I would highly recommend reading the biographies of the Prophet. In them we learn that his sole aim was to spread the message he received, i.e. the Quran. How he lived his life as an example according to it. This is the true meaning of Sunn...ah. What I see is many people are on the verge of worshipping him by literally following publications of his sayings without investigating how it is related to the Quran, even glorifying him, instead of solely surrendering to the one God. He is a human being, like any of us, who makes mistakes. Being a human means he also does actions that are time-based, applying principles and god-given laws to the time he was living in. He didnt drive a car, or eat with forks and knives, or had flushing toilets - does this mean that we too must do the same? Obviously not. Therefore we must look at how he thinks, his reasons, his application of the Quran in his time and use the same analogy in our time.

The Quran states several times that there is only one law and one hadith (and this word was used), and that is God's laws. But it also states to obey the messenger. So what do these two messages mean together. Does this mean that we must also wash, dress, even urinate the way he did? Isn't this insulting? Obeying the messenger obviously means that the messages that he gives must come from the Quran, and quran alone. This is why throughout the Quran we read that there is only one law, god’s law. At the same time, obey the messenger. I have never seen anywhere in the Quran which says that there are two sources of law. Yet, many seem to follow certain sayings of his which do not corroborate with the Quran. In fact, in the Quran, God forbids Muhammad and anyone to create their own laws. I invite everyone to investigate and seek to find truth in this matter for themselves.

For example, the quran says specifically that we are forbidden only pork, carrion and blood – many times. But we hear of people saying you also cannot eat alot of other things like snakes, clawed animals etc. Not that anyone would want to eat these things anyway, but the point is that there are so many many rules now attributed to the prophet, or others who are so called "knowledgeable" and treated as law. Where did these rules come from?? I thought we are only supposed to follow ONE law from ONE God – isn’t this the message reiterated many times in the Quran?

I believe that God knows our hearts, God is aware of our intentions, and our sincerity in doing things. That's why I think intention, if always placed with God, we will naturally do good, be kind, dress appropriately, generous in thoughts, lead with humility, etc.

I really hope we follow the example of the Prophet in this, instead of focusing on rituals he supposedly did at his time, as an Arab man in the 7th century. Obey the messenger in so far as the message of the Quran goes. That is why it is of essential importance that we read the QURAN FIRST before reading hadith. Always read in context. Have a questioning mind. Otherwise, we are blind, deaf, dumb. The Quran asks us many times to reason, judge, think. Yet I have been accused before of questioning my faith.

On the contrary. My Iman is stronger because of the questions I have explored.
Never ever forget the prophet was just a man, who worshipped God alone, who followed the quran. WE must do the same. Follow his example in this thoughts and CHARACTER, but dont worship him. There is only ONE god, ONE law.''

Post 3

''quote from Al-Quran

Say, (O Muhammed) "I am no more than a human being like you...." (Quran 18:110)

Also, there is no distinction among the prophets
...
“Say (O Muslims): We believe in God and that which is revealed to us and that which was revealed to Abraham and Ishmael, and Isaac and Jacob, and their children, and that which Moses and Jesus received and that the prophets received from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them and unto Him we have surrendered.” (Quran 2:136)

Many times in the Quran, Allah swt warns, corrects, guides the PRophet, showing that he is fallible like us. He has made several mistakes, which had to be corrected by Allah as in the Quran. Also read his biography when he got angry with a passerby, he was sad over something he shouldnt be, and many other incidences. This shows he is subject to the same passions, temptations, mistakes as we are. However, he is guided by Allah.

He makes mistakes, otherwise, he would be perfect, but only Allah is perfect.

There is only one revelation at the time of the prophet muhammad. And that is the Quran which was recited by him, and recorded and memorised by his companions. He did not have two sets of sayings. He is not a magical person. I can also show you verses in teh Quran to CATEGORICALLY say this.

Thanks for your comment though. Would be happy to show yo u more, if yo u are open..''

Post 4

''More proof that following the prophet's example is alot broader than what he have been doing.

Two authoritative books on hadiths, Muslim and Musnad by Ýbni Hanbal, founder of the Hanbali religious sect, make the following comment: “Take down... nothing other than the verses revealed. Anyone that may have written any of my sayings, let him destroy it” (Muslim, Sahih-i Muslim Kitab-ý Zühd, Hanbal, Musnad). The hadith quoted by Darimi is as follows: “The companions of the Prophet asked him permission to take down his sayings. They were refused” (Darimi, es-Sunen). The hadith transmitted by Alm Hatib is as follows: “While we were engrossed copying the hadiths, the Prophet came and asked what we were doing. We are copying your sayings, we replied. Is your intention to create a book other than God’s Book? People that preceded you swerved from the straight path because they dared write books other than God’s Book” (Al Hatib, Takyid). And Tirmizi had this to say: “We asked permission to copy the sayings of God’s messenger, but he refused to give it” (Tirmizi, es-Sünen, K. Ilm).

Let's follow fact, rather than opinion. Let's be logical rather than literal.

I do not reject hadith, i just dont think it should be followed literally. Sunnah, means way of life, or example. Otherwise, we should have more pahala by living in the desert and brushing our teeth the way he did? Does this even make sense? Whoever said this? Arent we creating our own rules?

Let us question for the sake of truth, rather than blindly following man-made rules. This is what i'm saying.''

I hope the learned brothers here can assist it effectively leading her back to the right path Insya-Allah. Unfortunately, she is a relative of mine and that is why I urgently need advice brothers. Thank you, Jazakallah.

[karaburatoreror]

Bismillah
Anyone who knows anything about science of fiqh and hadith will tell you not all hadith are sunnah but sunnah can be found/illucidated in hadith. One has to be metaly defienct if one tries to derive shariah by mere reading or acting on hadith without knowing the shari principle. Then again we are seeing the rise of Khawarij, Mutazite.
The literalist who follows hadith (salafist/ relegious anarcist) blindly as it is the fad these days are many way missguided and this allows the anti hadith brigade (Parvezis) gives ammunition.
This is what happens when we go astray from islamic sciences which protected deen from interference. These two opposing batil likly to claim many victim. Hence I seek protection from such fitnah ridden movment.
Allhualam

That's why you'll see a trend amongst many Quranite murtads (intentionally or otherwise) where many started off as Salafi's/la madhabis trying to understand Islam through a copy of a transliteration of the Quran and Sahih Bukhari as well as some "Saheeh" Collection. The problem of not doing Taqleed and trying to understand Islam on your own WITHOUT the supervision of a scholar is a SERIOUS danger to one's Imaan.

You start off with only following Saheeh Ahadeeth, and then when you come across some Ahadeeth that SEEMINGLY contradict each other, you choose the one that suits your nafs and deficient understanding as well as ego. From thereon in you are beset with problem after problem in reconciling SEEMINGLY contradictory ahadeeth and you just reject Ahadeeth and Sunnah altogether. To then try to convince them otherwise is a near impossible task because you'll find by design these people are some of the most arrogant and stubborn people you'll ever come across, and arrogant people are not given Hidayah.

It's the classic case and so many have become murtad just through this process. Many Quranites were Salafi before..

Just as an example how one even begins to construct Salah without Ahadeeth is mind boggling.

The ego coupled with deficient understanding is SERIOUSLY bad for your Imaan.

They should write that on all copies of Saheeh Ahadeeth like they do on ciggie boxes!

[StizePypemype]

Dear brothers, this is the latest response to my response by the sister's friend

Me : Shia' is not a sect but a deviation from Islam. Shia's practice idolatry and grave worshipping that are clearly forbidden. Shia' believe in the Mashaf of Fatima as being the final revelation revealed by Jibril a.s. to Fatima and recorded by... Ali r.a. Do not confuse Shia's with us Ahlul Sunnah. Ahlul Sunnah are the followers are the Sunnah of Rasulullah s.a.w.

The fact of that matter is, to question without knowledge only creates more questions and allows shaitan to sow the seeds of doubt in your mind to lead you astray. The muhaddith understand this. The apparent fallacy here is using contradictory hadith and even taking the hadith out of context. The links I have shared serve as a good guidance to understand the source of understanding hadith which is fiqh. Understand why even the great scholars learned from other scholars that which was not known to them. Taking the literary meaning of the translation of a haidth without referring to the tafseer can only lead to calamity in understanding. I urge those reading to seek out the scholars and learn from them so that you may be on the right path on not be confused. Wallahualam.

The friend: Mmm. Shia is very much like Sunni. As Sunni's have sub-sects (Hanafi, Maliki, Shafi'e, etc), they have things similar. Islam was initially fractured over politics, on who should reign as the Caliph, whether it's the Companions, or the peopl...e from the house of Muhammad. Further deviation in aqidah can happen in either despite the initial separation into two. Categorical rejection from the Sunni's side only justifies Shia's categorical rejection towards Sunni. The notion that Sunni is more special over Shia is condemned by the Quran, in that it said that no one is chosen by means his or her associations. And here we have Muslims, condemning the Jews for claiming they are the chosen people of God, when they are themselves just as guilty.

Further, knowledge was never the prerequisite of questioning. By means of Riwayat Israeliyyah and even in the Quran, we came to know that prophet Abraham used to question God's order himself, but he put it in such a way that it didn't seem like a question. His manner in questioning was wise and subtle. God replied to him nonetheless, God handled his subtleties in questioning. As a father, he could not understand why must he put his son's life on the line. Any thinking man would be questioning, and here, one of many things we see is that the only conviction he had was to God alone, everything else can be put into question. The put knowledge as a necessary pretext in asking question, is to (mis)lead ourselves into confirmation bias, or answers that seems like an expansion, but in reality we would be going in circles.

The links you have provided is good in understanding how muhadith do their work. But there is no guarantee that they did it right. None. Bukhari admitted that he only wrote down a hadith he vouched as true by performing ablution and then a 2 rakaah prayers. Beyond that, we never knew if he received revelations to confirm his action as right. Further, we know that he was chasing time, something like for a submission dateline. Do we understand the magnitude of his work and his obvious human limit? How then, can we take his work as infallible?

If we are to rely on his method, by ensuring the continuity of isnad, the reputation of those who relayed the hadith, we can see that quite a number of narrators receive mixed reviews among hadith scholar. Consider Ikrima and Abu Hurayrah. These two received mixed reviews, yet some "sahih" ahadith were narrated by them alone. What gives?

If we already decided to close one eye in favour of those who validate and not challenging, how honest are we in seeking truth? Are we scared that the truth cannot stand for itself, that we must employ bias in judgment? This, in most cases I have seen, is very least the case. Most of it has always been due to whims, unfounded fears, ignorance and arrogance. They have already decided that "true" is something that they "want" to hear, not what is actually "true"; if it was established, it cannot be challenged.

But I thought, the only thing we cannot challenge is what God and His apostle had agreed and established (prayers, fasting, zakat, hajj): not new establishments. And the authority in charge over me, are those who upheld these early establishments, these foundations of Islam. Faith in hadith books were never established by either God or His messenger. At best, I consider them to be historical documents filled in innacuracies and questionable truth. At best.

This notion that clergies have absolute power over "mere followers" is, sad to say, distasteful. Piety is not a paying job, but look at what it has become. A piece of paper has no rights in determining fate. If my qualification cannot determined my own fate, how can I determine someone else's? Yet this too is what clergies have come to be these days. They determine what is religion, they determine fate! As powerful as God these people are!

Knowledge is not confined in schools, and clearly does not rest only with scholars. Scholars have had conflicting opinions among themselves since forever. Why would we risk OUR salvation by adopting THEIR opinion? Before God, there is no easy way out, we cannot pass blame by saying "But God, we followed this scholar! He's a SCHOLAR!". God gave you your mind, for you. If your teacher taught you to make plane with feathers, even if it flies, you'd have still made a plane with feathers, and feathers does not ensure flight! The truth does, so what is it? Were you right? No, you and your teacher was wrong.

No one can teach truth without first thinking with his God given mind first. Though, this isn't applicable in matters of salvation. No one came back to life and endorsed a scholar. So, it is better to be your own imam, but unite as Muslims, as a student of truth.

Lastly, "taken out of context" has been used too many times, as if it is a constant legitimate exit clause. But, fortunately, no. Something that has been declared in such a manner that it appears to be carrying absolute value of truth, needs no "right context" as it is true regardless of context. It is weird to say that an absolute truth can be corrupted by wrong context. If, for demonstrative purposes, in the heat of our discussion, someone drop a line "Hey, but 1+1=2!". While irrelevant, waaaay out of context of topic at hand, yet, this is true.

So, in what context did the prophet claim that the literal Earth rested at the back of a figurative fish (clearly today we can see no fish is carrying Earth) in explaining the method of our literal salvation? What context justified the prophet to claim women are defective? God didn't.

I have a number of links refuting "sciences of hadith". But this isn't about pasting links, or about winning over number. But if you are interested, consider the Quranic Research Group. You can also consider Rashad Khulafa's researches before his mistakes the last years of his life. But bear in mind, that the truth does not lie within one man nor one group. It is for this wisdom, that God sent a number of prophets, and not just one prophet! Saidina Ali once said, we cannot learn truth from people, but when we learn truth, we'll recognise its people.

Wallahu a'lam.

I agree with you brother marco100, as the friend appears to be leading her to the path of being a Quranite. Your further assistance on this on this matter will be greatly appreciatated. Jazakallah.

[Aleksis]

Attack Rashad Khalifa. Point out and emphatically declare that he believed he himself was a messenger of God and was essentially an insane person. THAT is what his work led him to. How marvelous must have been his methodology of understanding the Qur'an (which this person endorses) when it could not stop him from thinking that he himself was a prophet. In fact, he used such a methodology precisely because it allowed him to further his own personal interests in claiming to be a prophet. Which kind of people advocate "Qur'an-only" philosophies? Add self-made prophets to the list. How can anyone defend him or even try to use nice words ("mistakes the last years of his life") to sidestep the enormity of the sin this man committed? Are these really the type of people a Muslim wants to learn religion from? Those who would apologize for an imposter who thought himself a prophet?

Also, any attack on the science of hadith can be refuted. It will be lengthy, because kuffar like Rashad devoted much of their lives to writing on the topic, but it can all be refuted.

I would suggest you, Ahmed Abdullah, seek a scholar immediately and have them give you the commentaries of all the hadith she is citing to explain the scholars' view of them. This is the fastest and most hard-hitting way to refute a Qur'anite. Not on methodology, which they will dance around, but by directly debunking their attacks on each and every hadith they bring up.

I've made threads before here advocating that we get learned members, especially 'ulema, together to compile on a website explanations for hadiths surrounded by controversy generated by people, but I guess people are too busy.

I pray Allah guide and speed the work of the brothers doing this project: http://bukhariexplanation.wordpress.com because it is desperately needed within the English-speaking part of the Ummah, even if the rest of the Ummah is too busy with themselves to acknowledge such a need.

Ahlus Sunnah wal Jamaah are the true followers of the Qur'an.

The example of a hadith denier is like a scenario of someone coming to the Prophet , asking him to recite Qur'an, then telling the Prophet to be quiet before he could say or do anything else, then running away and saying they have learned Islam. While the rest of the Muslims curiously watch them run away into the desert wondering what all that was about. Allah saw fit to reveal the Qur'an to this man and even showed him Hell and the Heavens, and brought him to where even Jibrail (as) could not go. And they think Allah will be satisfied with their rejection of him?

[virtuah]

Saidina Ali once said, we cannot learn truth from people, but when we learn truth, we'll recognise its people. I know brother DQ said not to get involved involved in methodology, but the question has to be raised: How do they know that 'Ali (RAA) actually said this, given their own methodology which is based on denying all transmitted matters?

According to their methodology, there is nothing preventing them from denying the Verses of the Qur'an, or even the historical existence of Muhammad (Salla Allahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) himself. So in my opinion, perhaps we can get 'Ulama to explain both things, specific Ahadith as well as the methodology the Qur'anists use and how it is totally devoid of reality.

Perhaps there are works already there, since the methodology of the Qur'anists seems to be the same as that of their ideological twins, the Twelver Shias, as far as rejecting the authenticity of all transmitted narrations they do not like (even the Mutawaatir ones) is concerned. So this angle should also be looked into if possible. The problem we face here is that most of the current refutations of the Twelver Shias are done by Salafis, who have their own problems in ranking knowledge, certainty, and the relationship between Ahadith and Fiqh. But perhaps if an 'Aalim is asked about this they can refer us to the proper sources.

[Aleksis]

Truth be told, the munkireen-e-hadees have no methodology. The science of hadith is a part of the science of history, and even Western academics accept this. Most Western historians accept the vast majority of the hadiths that Sunnis accept, trying to get a word in edgewise where they can, but even those who have agendas against Islam realize they have no room to argue on this topic.

Even in the dispute between Sunnis and Shi'a, the Westerners dub Sunnis the "Orthodox", which shows even they know.

Many deniers of hadith are also deniers of history. This is a mental illness. They cannot even prove World War 1 or the American Civil War ever even happened, much less that Abraham Lincoln ever once existed, to say nothing of Islamic matters from centuries before. They are arguing on pure emotion, they are stuck in the present, they disagree with what does not appeal to their emotion and agree with whatever does, even if it is nonsense.

It's kind of like those people who deny the moon landing ever happened. While a conspiracy on the part of one organization (NASA) is still somewhat tolerable or even acceptable, these people reject pretty much all human events by their methodology and rely on emotion and whim to decide what to believe or not.

If any of them are foolhardy enough to try and attack on methodology or substance, they can be put down, hard... for the purpose of preventing others from being attracted to them. But otherwise the only way to deal with them is on an emotional basis, to humor their irrationalities. Unfortunately, the only way to do this is to directly attack their view or perception, by elucidating the true meaning and understanding of each and every hadith so they realize they do not have to reject hadith if they do not understand them, they only need to refer to the scholars. This gives them faith in hadith and methodology again, and as that is strengthened, eventually trust in 'ulema again. I personally don't bother with the latter sort of personal outreach but they are this brother's family, so he feels he has no choice.

[StizePypemype]

Assalamualaikum all,

I know I'm reviving a very old thread but due to recent thread "Why do you believe in hadith?" I do believe the brothers and sisters on that thread have provided a wealth of information on dealing with the matter. In addition, I have had more than a year to increase my knowledge on dealing with these munkar-e-hadith and Alhamdulillah Allah has shown me the paths to knowledge to strengthen my resolve in dealing with them.

Wassalam.

[Fiipolera]

If any of them are foolhardy enough to try and attack on methodology or substance, they can be put down, hard... for the purpose of preventing others from being attracted to them. But otherwise the only way to deal with them is on an emotional basis, to humor their irrationalities.

Hi there,

The thread "Why do you believe in hadith" is currently in discussion about this very issue. As a believer in solely the Qur'an as a basis for faith, I would love to hear your views on the matter, if you wish, on that thread. Obviously I don't think my views are foolish, which is why I'm intrigued.

Cheers!

[StizePypemype]

Hi there,

The thread "Why do you believe in hadith" is currently in discussion about this very issue. As a believer in solely the Qur'an as a basis for faith, I would love to hear your views on the matter, if you wish, on that thread. Obviously I don't think my views are foolish, which is why I'm intrigued.

Cheers!

Salams Abacado,

I have been following that thread from the beginning so no need to reiterate your points here. By the.way, didn't you say you were done? Still haven't brother jav's questions by the way. Unfortunately for you, I am confident and sound in me belief and all the arguments you've put forward so far just don't hold any water. I'll be glad to continue to see your 'evidence' at that thread.

Wassalam.