[Qrhzbadu]

First of all I will confess I'm Sunni and I'm in no way intend to offend anyone's madhab here but rather engage in a constructive dialogue on a subject that's really deep in my heart.

I'm speaking from experience on several countries I've visited in different continents, engaging with different charities and enterprises as well as people from both spectrum's.


We all know that NGOs are now important actors in the promotion of the neo-liberal agenda as bilateral development agencies, tired of corruption, inept civil servants, and lackadaisical efforts, have opted to channel their financial assistance through non-state actors. And in this playfield most of the Sunni based NGOs in most countries I've visited have thus been posited as the panacea for bad governance, poverty, and dis-empowerment. Most of Sunni NGOs fall rather short of such lofty objectives and if anything most of them have been criticised for a lack of accountability, transparency, grassroots participation, and overall effectiveness (I could write a book about my frustrating dealings with UK's Muslim Aid) for example but that's not my aim.

I spent almost 8 months in different countries in Africa and witnessed a new phenomenon of social engagement from Shia based development and missionary groups that have reaching people like no other Sunni groups can and doe to their sophisticated network they are providing top quality services, often in health and education. I asked some brothers why do you think people are more sympathetic towards Shia's and they answered its simple: Shia's do not patronise them when they ask for projects funding and I'm talking about a group of brothers who had a hard tome getting funding for a Hospital project (they budgeted it at around 1.5$ million. They went to the gulf and Saudi Arabia where they were frustrated by red tape and priorities that were more focused on building Masjids through organisations such as Saudi-based International Islamic Relief Organisation (IIRO), World Muslim League to name a few.

Well, these guys decided to go to Tehran and of course after few weeks of due dilligence they were called back and Iranians decided to fund the project by giving it $5 million instead of the initial 1.5 so basically the hospital project had to be expanded. And guess what? Now they are about to fund a $40million university project. The same can be said of The Aga Khan Foundation which has done so much than most of the Saudi and Emirati Foundations such as the Khalifa & Qatar Foundations.


Now I'm sure some here might come up with the usual Shia bashing and secret agenda theories but in my opinion I think if we want to be taken seriously and game changers out there we need to think beyond the usual conventional ways of thinking when dealing with Islamic social enterprises. The Question is what is it that makes Shia based NGOs effective in the management of development aid than Sunni ones?

Any thoughts?

[pirinosa]

First of all I will confess I'm Sunni and I'm in no way intend to offend anyone's madhab here but rather engage in a constructive dialogue on a subject that's really deep in my heart.

It's not about madhhab; shias and especially "Aga Khanis" are out of the folds of Islam, so you can put them together with Evangelical NGOs in your analysis.

[Qrhzbadu]

It's not about madhhab; shias and especially "Aga Khanis" are out of the folds of Islam, so you can put them together with Evangelical NGOs in your analysis.

ok fine

and what about your thoughts on the subject?

[bestonlinepharmasy2]

and what about your thoughts on the subject?

base upon any persons experiences, its hard to comment without knowing its full detail activities. .

[GeorgeEckland]

Shia institutions are as if they are privatized for profits. Because theres always khums money involved being collected from people becoming shias. Like a mafia, theres always a hierarchy leading to the top, the richest of all. Sistani and Al Khoo'i are billionairs with real estate in London. To them, more centers means more money and more political influence.

How many are outside the control of Iran?

So naturally decenteralized Sunni non profit organizations will function differently.

And no its not a "secret agenda theory" as nothing is secret about it, you yourself in other posts spoke about Iranian influence and used it in arguements.

Its about more money, politics, and more Mut'ah temporary marriages.

[GeorgeEckland]

Shia "Sayyid" shiekh talking about how taking Khums (20%) money is a scam. And the history behind it, calling the four "assistants" of Saahib Al Zamaan are the four Dajjals (liars).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7XcWP...layer_embedded

Here he talks about the billions of Al Kho'ee, and them being invested in London.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQk9CIErCfU&feature=player_embedded

And here he talks about the history of Khums in Shia thought and how greed brought the concept which didnt exist even among shias in the beginning. He explains how it later on developed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5aqLmOnlSx4&feature=player_embedded

I dont think anyone would say their "missionaries" are for pure da'wah. Rather political influence and more money is what it means to them.

[Qrhzbadu]

Shia institutions are as if they are privatized for profits. Because theres always khums money involved being collected from people becoming shias. Like a mafia, theres always a hierarchy leading to the top, the richest of all. Sistani and Al Khoo'i are billionairs with real estate in London. To them, more centers means more money and more political influence.

How many are outside the control of Iran?

So naturally decenteralized Sunni non profit organizations will function differently.

And no its not a "secret agenda theory" as nothing is secret about it, you yourself in other posts spoke about Iranian influence and used it in arguements.

Its about more money, politics, and more Mut'ah temporary marriages.

Are you defending our in efficient? Have you seen the works of African muslim Agency (Sunni) compared to the Shia's?

As much as I try to understand and empathise with your argument but your arguments needs more indepth elaboration

[Qrhzbadu]

base upon any persons experiences, its hard to comment without knowing its full detail activities. .

Have you ever have any contacts with works done by any Sunni or otherwise in any country? Which country would that be and what work have you seen them do?

[Qrhzbadu]

bump

[GeorgeEckland]

Are you defending our in efficient? Have you seen the works of African muslim Agency (Sunni) compared to the Shia's?

As much as I try to understand and empathise with your argument but your arguments needs more indepth elaboration

What I mean is that they function as profit based institutions, that also seek political influence, and not simply as charity foundations, therefore its natural that they fucntion differently. The money ends up in pockets of the ones at top levels. This is a main goal and why top Shia Marji's would have official "deputies" representing them in different areas, to collect khums money etc.

So naturally, profit based organizations like these can be more profitable than ones that are only charity and give money away to people. They have a different structure with a hierarchy leading to the top, different tools, and different type of management, and different goals.

So comparing the two is like comparing apples and oranges in my opinion.

[Qrhzbadu]

What I mean is that they function as profit based institutions, that also seek political influence, and not simply as charity foundations, therefore its natural that they fucntion differently. The money ends up in pockets of the ones at top levels. This is a main goal and why top Shia Marji's would have official "deputies" representing them in different areas, to collect khums money etc.

So naturally, profit based organizations like these can be more profitable than ones that are only charity and give money away to people. They have a different structure with a hierarchy leading to the top, different tools, and different type of management, and different goals.

So comparing the two is like comparing apples and oranges in my opinion.

Is your answer based on how you feel about Shia's as a whole and their sect or ?

Do you have any examples of say Universities or Hospitals built by Sunni Charities that you would say are a model?