[Badyalectlawl]

Also, when it comes to an Imam, we feel that he should not be paid well. But seriously...how many of you would be willing to work for the wages that the Imam gets? If you have a degree and you were getting paid the amount that the average Imam gets, would you be willing to work for that amount in your profession? I don't think so.

Another point is that, as soon as people see and Imam driving a good car, or dressing nicely, or living in good house, people start pointing fingers at the Imam. It's almost as if everyone else can live however they want to but as soon as an Imam has a good car/house/clothes or whatever else, people start criticizing. I don't know if it's out of jealousy or animosity or whatever but it's almost as if people get a good feeling to see their Imam living in poverty.

Way back in the day.....an Islamic scholar was driving a car so a person came up to him and said, "Acha Maulana, aaaap bheee garee chalatay hain?" lol....

[Vmysobfi]

i know that and you know that, money is a HUGE factor in this.

i did say very few teachers dont work for the money also so im not completely biased.

Take the wages away and you might see some remain though some will probably go.

Bottom line is they have skills we dont, we are not willing to do it for free, so i guess they think the same too, so if they treat it as a part time cash in hand job then the purpose is being fulfilled i.e kids getting a religious education but the ikhlas is missing, thats between Allah and them.

We are no different, we wouldnt teach maktab for free, if we would then no aalims would be employed in the lower classes.

My gripe is at those teachers who get a nice sum working for a company 9-5 and STILL take a wage for the teaching.

I know of scholars who are on £26 grand + salary working a normal 9-5 job yet still will take full pay teaching at the maktab.

I have no issues with scholars working full time jobs and teaching at maktabs and taking pay for doing so. my issue is be upfront with the authorities and really ask yourselves wether that money is just 'extra income' or is it really needed.

The layman knows scholars do these cash in hand teaching and do not disclose it so the layman does the same. Benefit fraud is a major issue in the asian community in the UK. But talk to a layman and he point staright to the scholars doing the same.

thats the condition,folks,of the ummah.

agreed with maulana eteachers last 2 posts.

spot on really.

[Vmysobfi]

I think we all agree with Imams being made more but we need to come up with ideas and initiaves on how their day would revolve. what activities etc could they do so that committees feel justified in paying these higher wages.

If scholars come up with initiatives,are willing top put the time in and even then they don't get a wage reflecting that,then thats something which needs to be tackled within the communities.

[Badyalectlawl]

I think we all agree with Imams being made more but we need to come up with ideas and initiaves on how their day would revolve. what activities etc could they do so that committees feel justified in paying these higher wages.

If scholars come up with initiatives,are willing top put the time in and even then they don't get a wage reflecting that,then thats something which needs to be tackled within the communities.

The thing is...we don't want to pay Imams well and then as soon as they start working somewhere, people start saying things like..."Look at that scholar and Maulana...he is working as well..."...dude...Imams and scholars are human beings and they have families and children and wives as well just like anyone else. Their families and children have desires just like any other family would have. So to pay less than minimum wages and then on top of that, complain about such scholars because they work a normal job is just so wrong.

Also, you are saying that Imams are not putting in enough time so they don't justify decent wages. You very well know that Imams might be leading prayers but they can't do anything for a long period of time in a day because they have to be back in the Masjid to lead prayers. They can't go on long trips or be away from home other than being on official holiday. They are tied up throughout the whole day.

Also, some people get $10 dollars per hour whilst others make $200 per hour. According to you that would be unfair because they both are 'putting in time' which is the same so they should be paid the same as well. That doesn't make sense because they have totally different skills so even though one maybe putting in one hour, he will make more than someone who will put in 10 hours. So if the Imam works for less time per day, that doesn't necessarily mean that he should be at the bottom of the pay scale. So an Imam doesn't have to work the same amount of time as others to be paid the same. Some work less hours but they make much more than someone who puts in ten times more hours. If we value an Islamic scholar and realize the benefit of the Imam, then we will pay him decent wages.

A community without an Imam can never really be a vibrant Muslim community. If you want the best of Imams, then by ready to pay good as well otherwise we will lose our Imams to the hospitals and prisons and other places.

I for one don't regret for even a second about taking up the position that I have. Nothing compares to the reward I will get In Sha Allah for leading thousands of people in prayer and having the opportunity to teach hundreds of kids the Quran and Islam. No amount of money can entice me to hand over the reward I will In Sha Allah get in the hereafter for serving the deen. I would never want to trade my profession for any other profession in the world. : )

In the hereafter, it will not matter how much money you made in the world but rather, what will matter is how much reward you accumulated in the world and I feel that through the Imamat position, I can gain the greatest amount of reward in the shortest amount of time.

A good 'bang for my buck'.

[Vmysobfi]

Your argument may be valid in the afternoons at winter time but you know how the UK summer times are maulana.

Im sorry maulana,you can maybe have that argument for afternoons but mornings are a open time.

summer time fajr is at about 4.30 am and zuhr at 1.30pm.

winter time fajr at about 7.15 am and zuhr is 12.30 pm.

summer time asr is about 6pm

winter time asr is about 3pm

so i can understand time limts in winter afternoon but in the summer,the day is pretty open for time and mornings are pretty open all year.

[Badyalectlawl]

Your argument may be valid in the afternoons at winter time but you know how the UK summer times are maulana.

Im sorry maulana,you can maybe have that argument for afternoons but mornings are a open time.

summer time fajr is at about 4.30 am and zuhr at 1.30pm.

winter time fajr at about 7.15 am and zuhr is 12.30 pm.

summer time asr is about 6pm

winter time asr is about 3pm

so i can understand time limts in winter afternoon but in the summer,the day is pretty open for time and mornings are pretty open all year.

My main argument was that just because a person is putting in less time doesn't necessarily mean that they should be getting paid less. I also told you that one person gets $10 per hour and another person gets $200 per hour. I guess that is not fair to you right. Same time but different pay.

Many Masjids have a full time Islamic school attached to the Masjids and the Imams teach there in the day time. But most masjids don't. So what exactly do you want the Imam to do in the day time to justify decent wages? Clean the Masjid? Wash the bathrooms? Count how many blades of grass are in the front of the Masjid? Seriously...why do you think the Imam has to be physically working for 9 hours a day to get paid decent wages? I just told you about a person who works one hour long and gets paid 20 times more than a person who works for the same amount of time. So just because an Imam is not physically involved every single day for long periods of time doesn't necessarily mean that he should be paid as if he is only working 3 hours a day. Fine, even if he is only working 3 or five hours a day according to you, then at least keep the pay per hour at the higher end of the scale. Why should they get paid minimum wages if that and say that they should only get paid for three hours or five hours and the minimum pay per hour.

As soon as an Imam starts working in the daytime somewhere else because of low wages, the same people start complaining as well. Which means they have no respect for their religious leaders and have an inner desire to make sure that their religious leaders are the lowest paid people. The Imam does more work and is busier than the priests and rabbis but Muslim religious leaders get paid much lower than average Christian and Jewish religious leaders.

[BuyNetHosting]

i would say the difference is of understanding the situiation, we as laymen all to often see the imams not getting paid well, so i would agree with molana e-teacher that the pay of the imam should be well above average, but at the same time the imam all to often we see day in day out in many masjids pray thier salat, might do taleem even that because the tj's put them on the spot and then walk out of the masjid to see the wife and kids, but they dont get involved with the people, in my masjid we have to sort out people who start fitna, got problems, sort out janaza salats and the imam mashallah is nowhere to be seen, we had 1 imam regardless of pay he used to give time day in day out because he had that worry and concern, so i would say its all about the concern they have, look at the tj's no matter what you say about them they give time have worry and concern day in day out, thats what you call dedication (no need for the wooly's) to comment on that point.

[BuyNetHosting]

if people did see the imam doing those things, getting involved with the community then maybe people might see them more than just them leading salat and teaching kids and might then see the real value of them and pay them well, but unfortunatly times have changed no longer do imams get valued but now they have to show/earn thier value.

[Bill-Watson]

look at the tj's no matter what you say about them they give time have worry and concern day in day out, thats what you call dedication (no need for the wooly's) to comment on that point.

have to agree with you there.

btw what is a wooly?

[CreativeSuiteDown]

well they should be getting paid much more then that, atleast enought for them to make a living. however they will be rewarded heavily in their next life.

I highly disagree with your suggestion, i personally think they shouldn't be paid anything at all, otherwise this important position i.e the one of Imam will attract all kinds of opportunists.

[emupsMaispubs]

I highly disagree with your suggestion, i personally think they shouldn't be paid anything at all, otherwise this important position i.e the one of Imam will attract all kinds of opportunists.

So exactly how are they supposed to feed themselves, have clothes on their backs, and a roof on their heads? Work during the night?

[Vmysobfi]

i highly disagree with your suggestion, i personally think they shouldn't be paid anything at all, otherwise this important position i.e the one of imam will attract all kinds of opportunists.

don't feed the troll.

[infelconi]

my imam drives a cab n the day i feel sad sometime especially when u see the preachers rolling around in benzes and bentleys.

[JohnVK]

Realistically speaking? whatever the going wage is for a person in that position i.e chaplain, priest, vicar etc.

Idealistically speaking? If the Imam is worth his weight, the same as a premiership footballer.

[Singukil]

Realistically speaking? whatever the going wage is for a person in that position i.e chaplain, priest, vicar etc.

Idealistically speaking? If the Imam is worth his weight, the same as a premiership footballer.

Hehe, nicely put.

[FalHaitle]

I think we all agree with Imams being made more but we need to come up with ideas and initiaves on how their day would revolve. what activities etc could they do so that committees feel justified in paying these higher wages.

.

There are lots of things my Imam does. I don't think what he does overall can be restricted to a daily basis listing. For instance he may be preparing a khutbah and someone interrupts for assistance, requiring advice and support for funeral arrangements and inheritance issues. Or he maybe disturbed for counselling or another related matter on fiqh questions etc. On top of that our Imam still engages in activities for the youth; which can range from the mosque alone or interrelated to another mosque (Islamic quizz, sporting activites etc), both the Imam and his wife, are available for sessions in teaching children on a weekly basis as well as programmes for teaching adult women and men. There are times, that we may move from the everyday seerah, fiqh to some complex matters and the Imam will arrange for a scholar who is more knowledgeable in that issue. Usually, Imam takes it as a responsiblity upon himself (and family) to entertain the scholar as a guest in his home. There are so much things our Imam (and his family) does, that much of his/their time is in organizing and implementing these wide-range of activities. I agree on a suitable salary.

[Evsltkzl]

Just recently, a few one day programmes were organised for the community by a group of ulamah who decided to hold them at the local masjid where the turnout would be alot better and more people would be able to benefit. The programme took weeks of preparation, was free to attend, no cost to the masjid, as all costs (leaflets, posters, equipment etc) was paid for by the organisers and had the whole-hearted support of one of the imams.

The reaction from the masjid committee was mind boggling. 'What is the need of teaching all this?' they said 'A masjid should only do salah, jumuah bayans and tableegh from TJ' Other committee members accused the organisers of teaching the people too much Islam (??!!??) and made comments such as 'you are only interested in promoting yourself' (even though no names were given to the public). Other committee members mocked the efforts saying 'no-one will turn up' (The turnout was huge, 2-3 times what was expected), ‘You want to impart knowledge in modern ways’ . Other silly actions such as ripping the posters off the noticeboard, refusing to open the building early etc. hindered everything.

Despite all that, the programme was very well received in the community, although it put us off doing anything else in the masjid for a long time.

What I'm trying to say is, the Imams will often want to hold activities and programmes but efforts are hindered by committee members who are afraid of losing their power over the masjid. As a result, every effort is questioned, ridiculed, hindered, mocked, unsupported and restricted. Its no wonder we have some imams who join the masjid with alot of enthusiasm and good ideas but give up after a year of battling the committee. I'm not saying all committees are like that. Unfortunately, our’s is. Unless they change, I cannot see any the aalims in the community being proactive in the masjid.

[tinamasak]

The reaction from the masjid committee was mind boggling. 'What is the need of teaching all this?' they said 'A masjid should only do salah, jumuah bayans and tableegh from TJ' Other committee members accused the organisers of teaching the people too much Islam (??!!??) and made comments such as 'you are only interested in promoting yourself' (even though no names were given to the public). Other committee members mocked the efforts saying 'no-one will turn up' (The turnout was huge, 2-3 times what was expected), ‘You want to impart knowledge in modern ways’ . Other silly actions such as ripping the posters off the noticeboard, refusing to open the building early etc. hindered everything.

EXACTLY word to word as per the vast majority of Masjids in the UK

[SkeniaInhilla]

Sounds like people find it difficult to move out of their comfort zone.

[BruceCroucshs]

In my opinion only:

The scenario of what is representative of an Imaam should be clarified first.

a) Is Imaam defined as the person who leads just the prayer
b) Is Imaam defined as the person who leads the prayer and the classes
c) Is imaam defined as the person who leads the prayer, classes and holds a surgery for community needs.
d) etc

Once you have clearly defined the role[s] of the Imaam [from the perspective of a Masjid] then they should pay adequately according to the 'standard of pay' that the Imaam lives in.
In the UK the there is Government statistics that shows a 'poverty line', if a family is earning below that number then they are defined as living in poverty. Many factors are taken into consideration of what a family needs to be above this poverty line.

Masjids need to take into consideration inflation, cost of living, standards of pay, etc when they stipulate a pay to an Imaam. They should also look at 'best practice' in the teaching industry, taking into consideration training, touring, networking, personal development, supervision, etc.

For me the problem is bad managment, Good management would ensure that they have a robust system for fund raising, accountability, etc. It is not at all difficult to get it right with the right structure in place, but since the right management structures do not exist they will never be right.