[deethythitoth]

A Brother, by the name of Abul Hasan, [which i understand is an 'Alim] has said the following:

http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/show...?t=1611&page=4


"In fact, Ibn Qayyim declared the narration from Hadrat Ali (ra) for placing under the navel - to be Sahih in his Bada'i al-Fawa'id, as did the Hanbali Hafiz: Diyaud-Din al Maqdisi in al-Mukhtara."

can anyone of you get reference for this? or is it possible for any brothers who have contact with this sheikh to get the full quotations?

[JOR4qxYH]

Hazrat Ali (radhiallahu anhu) relates that the sunnah of Rasulullah (Sall Allahu alaihi wa Aalihi wa Sallim) is to place one hand over the other below the navel. [Abu Daud, ch. on Wad’ul Yumna, Hadith 756]

http://www.ummah.net/Al_adaab/salaah.html#4.3

Wassalam

[deethythitoth]

Hazrat Ali (radhiallahu anhu) relates that the sunnah of Rasulullah (Sall Allahu alaihi wa Aalihi wa Sallim) is to place one hand over the other below the navel. [Abu Daud, ch. on Wad’ul Yumna, Hadith 756]

http://www.ummah.net/Al_adaab/salaah.html#4.3

Wassalam

Akhi, i possess all the narrations on placing the hands below the navel in prayer, but i am searching for the actual quote made by Ibn Qayyim and Diyaud-Din al Maqdisi in their respective works 'Bada'i al-Fawaid and Al Mukhtara' regarding the narration of 'Ali [Ra] on 'placing the hands below the navel' which is found in Sunan Abu Dawood..if ANYONE can get me the quotation made by them that will be helpfull...because this will boost up the appraisals to this narration, the art known as 'Jarh and Ta'deel'

Thumma Akhi

[BuyNetHosting]

Hazrat Ali (radhiallahu anhu) relates that the sunnah of Rasulullah (Sall Allahu alaihi wa Aalihi wa Sallim) is to place one hand over the other below the navel. [Abu Daud, ch. on Wad’ul Yumna, Hadith 756]

http://www.ummah.net/Al_adaab/salaah.html#4.3

Wassalam

What is the authenticity of this HAdith?

[deethythitoth]

What is the authenticity of this HAdith?

to the hanifis this hadith proves sufficient and it is graded as Hasan...to the salafis they regard it as weak. because of a certain narrator known as 'Abdur-Rahman al Kufi'.

to ascertain why he is weak they quote Imam Nawai saying "Abdur Rahman is unanimously [Consensus] weak".

but this statement made by the Imam is in itself is weak because not every Scholar of Jarh and Ta'deel agrees with him...

those who regarded him as a Thiqah Wa Sudooq, were Imam Tirmidhi, Imam Ibn Khuzaimah, Imam Hakim, Imam Bazzar, Imam Ijli, Allamah Suyooti and others.

and also Imam Ibn Qayyim, Imam Diyaud-Din al Maqdisi [but these 2 Scholars i have to check to be sure].

hence these are all the appraisals

Abdur Rahman al Kufi was not labelled a liar in his life, it was because of his memory, but the Scholars that were leniant on him state his words are not equivalent to a Hafidh but Hadiths may be recorded from him...hence his appraisals.

[XzBZB2UV]

Here is a scan from Bada'i al-Fawaid:



here is it in text :
علي رضي الله عنه من السنة في الصلاة وضع الأكف على الأكف تحت السرة،
عمرو بن مالك عن ابي الجوزاء عن ابن عباس مثل تفسير علي إلا أنه غير صحيح والصحيح حديث علي

The hadith is in al-Mukhtarah of al-Maqdisi. Here it is:

الأحاديث المختارة للضياء المقدسي - (ج2 / ص 386)
771 أخبرنا المبارك بن أبي المعالي ببغداد أن هبة الله أخبرهم قراءة عليه أنا الحسن بن علي أنا أحمد بن جعفر ثنا عبدالله بن أحمد ثنا محمد بن سليمان الأسدي لوين ثنا يحيى بن أبي زائدة ثنا عبدالرحمن بن إسحاق عن زياد بن زيد السوائي عن أبي جحيفة عن علي قال إن من السنة في الصلاة وضع الأكف على الأكف تحت السرة ورواه أبو معاوية عن عبدالرحمن إلا أنه قال زياد بن زياد

772 أخبرنا المؤيد بن عبدالرحيم بن الأخوة وعائشة بنت معمر بن عبدالواحد بن الفاخر أن سعيد بن أبي الرجاء الصيرفي أخبرهم قراءة عليه أنا أحمد بن محمد بن أحمد بن النعمان أنا محمد بن إبراهيم بن علي بن المقرئ أنا إسحاق بن أحمد بن نافع الخزاعي أنا ابن أبي عمر هو محمد بن يحيى العدني ثنا أبو معاوية ثنا عبدالرحمن بن إسحاق عن زياد بن زياد السوائي عن أبي جحيفة عن علي رضي الله عنه قال إن من السنة في الصلاة المكتوبة وضع الأيدي على الأيدي تحت السرة

[deethythitoth]

Mufti Saheb, now i can gloat saying the hadith is Saheeh.

my khalafi mate WILL be surpised!

just a question Mufti Saheb, in the writing of Ibn Qayyim, did he write 'Was-Sahih hadith 'Ali'' at the end of the text? is it possible to post the number of this text where it is placed in his book?


and one more thing Mufti Saheb, i know im asking for too much, can you translate it please?....i'd rather have a mufti translating it than a layman.

[Numbiydq]

Mufti Saheb, now i can gloat saying the hadith is Saheeh.

my khalafi mate WILL be surpised!

just a question Mufti Saheb, in the writing of Ibn Qayyim, did he write 'Was-Sahih hadith 'Ali'' at the end of the text? is it possible to post the number of this text where it is placed in his book?


and one more thing Mufti Saheb, i know im asking for too much, can you translate it please?....i'd rather have a mufti translating it than a layman.

Did you not read Shaykh Abul Hasan's second article posted here which mentioned what you needed? See here:

http://www.mediafire.com/?9hmml2gxzut

Look at pp. 11-16

Wassalam

[deethythitoth]

Did you not read Shaykh Abul Hasan's second article posted here which mentioned what you needed? See here:

http://www.mediafire.com/?9hmml2gxzut

Look at pp. 11-16

Wassalam

akhi, i have not read it, but i have to tell you i just wizzed thorugh it and Suhan-Allah, everything i need in one book! a fountain of knowledge!

May Allah [Azza Wa Jal] reward everyone who has helped me in this discussion!

once again

[Numbiydq]

akhi, i have not read it, but i have to tell you i just wizzed thorugh it and Suhan-Allah, everything i need in one book! a fountain of knowledge!

May Allah [Azza Wa Jal] reward everyone who has helped me in this discussion!

once again

AMIN

[Numbiydq]

those who regarded him as a Thiqah Wa Sudooq, were Imam Tirmidhi, Imam Ibn Khuzaimah, Imam Hakim, Imam Bazzar, Imam Ijli, Allamah Suyooti and others.

I don't think you will find exact expressions of ta'dil from Tirmidhi and Hakim nor al-Ijli. But, where does Suyuti make tawthiq on him except that he quoted Ibn hajar's qawl al-musaddad that Tirmidhi considered some of his narrations to be Hasan, while Hakim and Ibn Khuzayma had one narration via him though he had some issues with him still...

Shukran

[deethythitoth]

I don't think you will find exact expressions of ta'dil from Tirmidhi and Hakim nor al-Ijli. But, where does Suyuti make tawthiq on him except that he quoted Ibn hajar's qawl al-musaddad that Tirmidhi considered some of his narrations to be Hasan, while Hakim and Ibn Khuzayma had one narration via him though he had some issues with him still...

Shukran

i think your right, but one way or another they accepted him because they still narrated his hadith and qualified them as hasan and Sahih even knowing the issues surrounding him...that tells us something

regarding imam Ijli, Shakyh Riyad-ul Haq said in his book something regarding him...i dont know the exact quote, maybe you might know it.

iv seen a similar fatwa on askimam.org where Mufti Ebrahim Desai quotes Imam Bazzaar and Ijli saying it is permissible to use his hadiths.


Allah knows best

[WeestDype]

Asslamo Allaikum,

After discussing your evidence, ask him about his own for good measure, Insha'Allah.

A deeper analysis of the ahadith used for folding the hands on chest and their weakness:

1. Sayyiduna Wail bin Hujr (ra) says, 'I prayed with the Prophet (sallallahu alaihi wa sallam) and he placed his right hand over his left on his chest. (Ibn Khuzaimah, 479)

Imam Nimawi says, 'It's isnad is questionable and the additional wording 'on his chest' is inauthentic and not established.'

This hadeeth has been reported by Muammal bin Ismaeel from Sufyan al Thawri from Aasim bin Kulaib from Wail bin Hujr (ra) -However it is only Muammal who reports these additional words from Sufyan al Thawri. Sufyan's other student, Abdullah bin al Waleed who also narrates this hadeeth from him does not include these words in his narration as recorded in Imam Ahmad's Musnad. (Ahmad 18392)

The other narrators who report the hadeeth together with Sufyan al Thawri from Aasim bin Kulaib have also not included these words in their narrations. Observe the following list of narrators who have al reported the same hadeeth from Aasim bin Kulaib but none of then have included the additional words reported by Muammal bin Ismaeel

• Sh'ubah, Abdul Wahid, and Zubair bin Muawiyah as in Imam Ahmad's Musnad. (Ahmad 18398, 18371 & 18397)

• Zaidah as in Imam Ahmad's Musnad, Darimi, Abu Dawood. Nasai and Baihaqi (Ahmad 18391, Darimi 1357, Abu Dawood 726, Nasai 889 and Baihaqi 2325)

• Bishr bin al Mufaddhal as in Ibn Majah, Abu Dawood and Nasai (Ibn Majah 810, Abu Dawood 726 & 957, and Nasai 1265)

• Abdullah bin Idrees as in Ibn Majah (Ibn Majah 810)

• Salam bin Saleem as in Abu Dawood Tayalisi's Musnad (Abu Dawood Tayalisi 1020)

There are many other chains for this hadeeth, however, none contain this extra wording. Thus, it is clear that this is Muammal bin Ismaeel's own erroneous addition to the hadeeth. Ibn al Qayyim al Jawziyyah also says in I'laam al Muwaqqieen, 'No one has said upon the chest apart from Muammal bin Ismaeel.’ (I'ilaam al Muwaqqieen 2/361) Therefore, as Imam Nimawi has concluded in his al Ta'leeq al Hasan, this hadeeth with the additional wording of' upon his chest' is extremely weak.

It is an accepted principle of hadeeth that if a certain authentic and reliable narrator contradicts other equally authentic or more reliable 'arrators in his wording of a hadeeth then his narration will be declared shaadh and will not be accepted. If this is the case with authentic narrators, then an irregular addition of the words 'upon the chest' cannot be accepted from a narrator who, although declared acceptable by some, errs excessively and is weak of memory like Muammal bin Ismaeel. Study the following observations of the scholars of Jarh and T'adeel about Muammal bin Ismaeel:

Abu Hatim says, 'He is sadooq, firm in sunnah, but one of many mistakes
Imam Bukhari says, 'Muammal is munkar al hadeeth (People who view Imam Bukhari as the ultimate authority in matters of Hadeeth should note his following statement: 'It is not permissible to narrate from anyone whom I have labelled munkar al hadeeth [Mizan al I'itidal. 1/119]

Dhahabi says in al Kashif, 'He is sadooq, firm in sunnah, but one of many mistakes. It was also said that he buried his books and narrated by heart and thus erred. '

Ibn Sa'd says, 'He is thiqah, though one of many mistakes.'

Yakub bin Sufyan says, 'Muammal Abu Abdul Rahman is a great sunni shaikh. I heard Sulaiman bin Harb praise him. Our shaikhs would advise us to take his hadeeth, only that his hadeeth are not like the hadeeth of his companions. At times it is obligatory upon the people of knowledge to distance themselves from his narrations as he narrates munkar ahadeeth from even his authentic teachers. This is worse for had he narrated these munkar ahadeeth from weak authorities we would have excused him.'

Saji says, 'He errs excessively. He is sadooq, but one of many mistakes. He has errors that would take too long to be mentioned.'

Muhammad bin Nasr al Marwazi says, 'If Muammal alone relates a certain narration then it becomes obligatory to pause and research the hadeeth as he had a bad memory and erred excessively (See Tahdheeb al Tahdheeb)
Hafidh Ibn Hajar has made it clear in his Fath al Bari that there is dh 'af (weakness) in Muammal bin Ismaeel's narrations from Sufyan (Fath al Bari, 9/297). The above hadeeth has this very chain of narration.

We must also bear in mind that Sayyiduna Wail Ibn Hujr(ra), the very companion who narrates this hadeeth, was a resident of Kufa, and the practice of the people of Kufa was to fasten their hands below the navel. There is nothing to suggest that he contravened this practice. Sufyan al Thawri, from whom Muammal narrates this hadeeth, is himself of the view that the hands should be placed below the navel (Ibn Qudamah in al Mughni 2/23, and others as quoted by the author of Bughyah al Almaee 1/316)

2. Sayyiduna Hulb (ra) relates, 'I saw the Prophet (sallallahu alaihi wa sallam) turn from both his right and left and I also saw him place this upon his chest.' Yahya (one of the narrators) described this as being the right hand upon the left above the wrist joint. (Ahmad 21460. Allamah Hashim Sindhi says in Dirham al Surrah p. 113 that both Simak bin Harb and Qabeesah (two of the narrators of this hadeeth) have been disparaged by some of the ulama of jarh and t'adeel.)

The above hadeeth contains the words 'upon his chest'. This extra wording is not firmly established or confirmed, because of all the narrators who report this hadeeth from Simak, only one reports this extra wording.
Observe the following narrations of the same hadeeth without the extra wording of 'upon his chest'.

• Abu al Ahwas reports from Simak bin Harb from Qabeesah bin Hulb from his father that the Prophet (sallallahu alaihi wa sallam) would lead us in prayer and would clasp his left hand with his right.293

• Shareek reports from Simak from Qabeesah bin Hulb from his father who says (towards the end of a longer hadeeth), 'I saw him place one of his hands on the other and I also saw him turn once towards his right and once towards his left.'294

Wakee reports from Sufyan from Simak bin Harb from Qabeesah bin Hulb from his father who says, 'I saw the Prophet (sallallahu alaihi wa sallam) place his right hand upon his left in prayer and I also saw him turn away from both his right and left.'295

• Daruqutni narrates from Abdul Rahman bin Mahdi and Wakee', from Sufyan from Simak bin Harb from Qabeesah bin Hulb from his father who says, 'I saw the Prophet (sallallahu alaihi wa sallam) place his right hand upon his left in prayer.' (Daruqutni 1087)

The above narrations all clearly show that the wording 'upon his chest' is an unreliable addition on the part of one of the reporters and therefore this particular narration is shaadh.

Imam Nimawi adds in his al T'aleeq al Hasan (1/145):

'I have a suspicion that the wording of this hadeeth has mistakenly been changed by a writer. The correct words would appear to be "Yadhau hadhihi ala hadhihi", i.e., "he would place this hand upon this hand", and not "hadhihi ala sadrihi", i.e., "this hand upon his chest". Only this wording would be in agreement with the narrators own interpretation of the hadeeth as is stated in the narration "Yahya described this as being the right hand upon the left above the wrist joint". This would also tally with all the other narrations of this hadeeth that do not contain the wording "upon the chest", and would also explain why the following authors have not included this narration in their comprehensive books: Haithami in his Majm'a al Zawaid, Suyuti in his Jam' al Jawami, and Ali al Muttaqi in his Kanz alUmmal. And Allah knows best.'

The author of Awn al M'abud also admits that Yahya's commentary does not fit the wording of the hadeeth.

3. Taawoos narrates that The Messenger of Allah [salallahu alayhi wa sallam] used to place his right hand over his left, and then clasp them firmly on his chest during prayer. (Abu Dawood 759)

Imam Nimawi has declared this hadeeth to be weak.
(al T’aleeq al Hasan 1/145. Allamah Hashim Sindhi says in Dirham al Surrah p27 that the authenticity of two of its narrators has been disputed: Sulaiman bin Musa and Haitham bin Humaid.)

This hadith is mursal and its isnad contains Sulaiman bin Musa who has been classified as weak by some scholars. Bukhari claims that he has munkar narrations. Nasai says that he is not strong in Hadeeth. Hafidh says in al Taqreeb, “He is a sadooq and faqeeh. There is some (leen) “weakness” in his hadeeth.” Furthermore, Abu Dawood has recorded the same narration in his Maraseel but with a different wording. Instead of “he clasped them firmly on his chest” that narration reads “he entwined the fingers of his hands on his chest. [Maraseel Abi Dawood, p85]

This hadeeth is also mursal and although mursal narrations are not readily accepted by others, the Hanafi Ulama consider them acceptable as evidence. Therefore, as some have pointed out, this narration is binding on us. However, we say that the saheeh hadith of Sayyiduna Wail bin Hujr [radiyallahu anhu] narrated by Ibn Abi Shaibah takes precedence and the ahadeeth of Sayyidina Ali (ra) and Siyyiduna Abu Hurairah (ra) are more acceptable to us because they explicitly mention the sunnah being below the navel. Tawoos’s words “he would” cannot match the words of the companions “it is sunnah”. Also as mentioned earlier the very wording of Tawoos’s hadeeth is in dispute. Moreover, Tawoos’s mursal narration is opposed to the mursal narrations of Ibrahim al Nakhai and Abu Mijlaz.

4. Sayyiduna Wail ibn Hujr (ra) narrates, ''I was present with the Prophet [salallahu alahyi wasalam]. He rose, went towards the masjid and entered the mihraab. He raised his hands with takbeer and then placed his right hand over his left upon his chest.'' (Bayhaqi 2335)

Imam Nimawi says,

“Its isnad is extremely weak. Dhahabi has said about Muhammad bin Hujr in Mizaan that he has munkar narrations. Bukhari has said that there is a question about him. [Bukhari often uses this expression to desribe the weakness of a narrator]. Ibn al Turkmani says, “The mother of Abdul Jabbar is the mother of Yahya. I do no know her name or her details (grade of reliability).” Saeed bin Abdul Jabbar is also weak. Dhahabi quotes Nasai in his Mizaan as saying that Saeed bin Abdul Jabbar is not strong. Hafidh ibn Hajar says in Taqreeb, “Saeed bin Abdul Jabbar al Hadhrami al Kufi is weak.” [al T’aleeq al Hasan 1/145]


5. Aqabah bin Sahban reports that Sayyiduna Ali (ra) commenting on the verse [So pray unto thy Lord, and sacrifice] explained, that this means to place the right hand upon the middle of the left upon the chest. (Bayhaqi 2337)

Ibn al Turkmani says that both the sanad and the text of this narration are mudhtarib. [al Jawhar al Naqiyy 2/46]


6. Abu al Jawz reports from Sayyiduna ibn Abbas (ra) that he said of the verse [So pray unto thy Lord, and sacrifice]: This means placing the right hand upon the left in prayer, on the chest.

(Bayhaqi 2339. Allamah Hashim says in Dirham al Surrah p28, “The hadeeth is weak on two accounts: because it is muqati’ and also because three of its narrators, Amr, Yahya and Rawh are weak. So this should be considered. Furthermore, the authors of Muheet al Burhani and Majm’a al Bahrain have narrated a marf’u hadetteh from Ibn Abbas [radiyallahu anhu] with the words “It is part of sunnah to place the right hand upon the left below the navel in salah.”)

Imam Nimawi has declared the isnad of this narration to be weak.

He says, “Rawh bin al Musayyab is matrook [abandoned]. Ibn Hibban says that Rawh Ibn al Musayyab narrates and ascribes fabricated traditions even to reliable authorities. It is not permissible to narrate from him. Ibn Adiyy says that his narrations are not preserved.” [al T’aleeq al Hasan 1/146]


The sanad also contains a third narrator, Amr bin Malik al Nakri. Ibn al Turkmani writes of him in al Jawhar al Naqiyy saying,

“Ibn Adiyy has said that Amr al Nakri is munkar al Hadeeth even when narrating from reliable authorities. He plagiarised narration and Abu Ya’la al Mawsili declared him dhaeef.” [al Jawhar al Naqiyy 2/47]


The correct Tafseer of this verse:

Ibn Jareer al Tabari, quoting the tafseer of the ulama which he states is the most correct, writes:

“The meaning of this verse is that “Oh Porophet of Allah! Make all your prayers sincere for the sake of your Lord, whithout any share for other false gods and deities, and also make all your sacrifices solely for the sake of your Lord without any share for other idols.” [Ibn Jareer al Tabari in his Tafseer 12/724]


7. Ibn Jarir al Dhabbiyy reports from his father who said, “I saw Ali (ra) clasping his left hand with his right on the wrist, above the navel.'' (Abu Dawood 757)

Imam Nimawi writes in Aathar al Sunan that the additional wording “above the navel” is not authentic and established. The same hadeeth has been narrated in al Safinah al Jaraidiyyah on the authority of Muslim bin Ibrahim, one of Bukhari’s shaykhs, in al Musannaf of Abu Bakr bin Abi Shaibah, [Ibn Abi Shaibah 3940 & 8722] and in Bukhari [in the chapters relating to actions in salah] in muallaq, abridged form. However, none of these narrations contain the extra wording “above the navel”. The only narrator to include this additional wording in the hadeeth is Abu Badr Shuja bin al Walid narrating from Abu Talut Abdus Salam bin Abi Hazim. Shuja’ has been considered reliable by some, but Abu Hatim says of him as quoted by Hafidh Ibn Hajar in his introduction [to Fath al Bari], and by Dhahabi in his Mizan that “He is weak in hadeeth; a shaykh who is not strong and therefore, his word cannot be acceptable in evidence, although he has saheeh ahadeeth from Muhammad bin Amr bin Alqamah.” Hafidh Ibn Hajar also says in his Taqreeb, “He is pious, sudooq and he has mistakes.” [al T’aleeq al Hasan 1/146]

[deethythitoth]

what is this? i have hit JACKPOT!

knowledge Galore!!!!

he already had a fit after giving him all the daleels for below the navel and the appraisals with it, if i give him this, Inna lillahi wa inna ilayhi raji'oon!

il save it for another day, well, after he calms down from what happened today!

i seriously feels like im a millionaire, Muhahaha!

p.s sorry for acting childish!

now, lets copy and paste.

akhi, may Allah [Azza Wa Jal] give you abundant reward for this.

[Numbiydq]

Assalamu alaikum

Br. Muadh did you see the last line of the scan you uploaded? It says that it is Mursal Sahih (meaning the one from Tawus - though it is da'eef due to Sulayman ibn Musa).

[Cwvnyfsj]

assalamualaikum


thank you brother muadh you've made some good points but firstly let's discuss your own opinion:

The hadeeth of Alee (RA) reported by Abu Dawood, Ahmad, ibn Abee Shaybah, ad-Daaruqutnee, al-Bayhaqee and Abu Juhayfah that Alee said, ‘the Sunnah is to place the hand upon the hand below the navel.


Al-Haafidh az-Zayla’i said in ‘Nasb ar-Raayah’ after mentioning this hadeeth, ‘ibn Qattaan said, "Abd ar-Rahmaan bin Ishaaq, he is ibn al-Harb Abu Shaybah al-Waasitee and ibn Hanbal and Abu Haatim said about him, "rejected in hadeeth." And ibn Ma’een said, "he is nothing." And Bukhaaree said, "there is a problem in him." And al-Bayhaqee said in ‘al-Ma’rifah’, "it’s isnaad is not authentic, And ar-Rahmaan bin Ishaaq al-Waasitee is alone in reporting it and he is abandoned." And an-Nawawee said in ‘al-Khulaasa’ and ‘Sharh Saheeh Muslim’, "and it is a hadeeth which is weak by agreement for Abd ar-Rahmaan bin Ishaaq is weak by agreement

Abu Dawood reports on the authority of Jarir ad-Dabbi that he said, ‘I saw Alee placing his right hand upon his left wrist above the navel.’ So the principle of our scholars is that when the Companion acts contrary to what he narrates then this indicates the abrogation of what is narrated.’

have not come across a marfu’ hadeeth that lends evidence to this position. Yes there is the narration of Alee (RA) which indicates this, as reported by Abu Dawood in his ‘Sunan’ from Jareer ad-Dabbi who said, ‘I saw Alee grasping his left wrist with his right hand above the navel.’

This isnaad is saheeh or hasan, but it is the action of Alee and is not marfu’. Also the clear meaning of his saying, ‘above the navel’ is a place raised from the navel, i.e. upon the chest or near the chest, as occurs in the hadeeth of Wa’il bin Hujr and the hadeeth of Halb at-Taa’ee and the mursal of Tawwoos, and these three ahaadeeth will follow. And this interpretation is supported by his (RA) tafseer of His saying, "wanhar" by placing the hands upon the chest in the prayer as has preceded.

Now lets take a look at the hadith which you have shed your views on, the hadith of Wa’il bin Hujr who said, ‘I prayed with the Messenger of Allaah (SAW) and he placed his right hand upon his left on his chest in the prayer.’

Reported by ibn Khuzaimah, and this hadeeth is authentic, authenticated by ibn Khuzaimah as was made clear by ibn Sayyid an-Naas in his ‘Sharh at-Tirmidhee.

ash-Shaikh Muhammad Qaa’im as-Sindee al-Hanafee acknowledges this in his letter, ‘Fawz al-Kiraam’ that this hadeeth fulfills the conditions of ibn Khuzaimah where he says, ‘I believe that this hadeeth fulfills the conditions of ibn Khuzaimah, and this is strongly suggested in the manner of al-Haafidh in ‘al-Ittihaaf’, and is obvious from the words of ibn Sayyid an-Naas after he mentioned the hadeeth of Wa’il bin Hujr in ‘Sharh at-Tirmidhee’ - "and ibn Khuzaimah authenticated it".

ibn Ameer al-Haaj, who outdid his shaykh ibn al-Hammaam in research and depth of investigation, said in ‘Sharh al-Minniyyah’, ‘What is established in the Sunnah is to place the right hand upon the left in prayer, and there is no authentic hadeeth that establishes the place of placing them on the body except the aforementioned hadeeth of Wa’il.

nd this was likewise said by the author of ‘al-Bahr ar-Raa’iq’ as is found in ‘Fath al-Ghafoor’ of Shaikh Hayat as-Sindee.

al-Haafidh said in ‘Fath al-Baaree’{4}, ‘and he did not mention (i.e. Sahl bin Sa’d) the place to put them on the body. And ibn Khuzaimah reported from Wa’il that "he placed them upon his chest", and in al-Bazzaar (the wording is) "near his chest" (‘inda sadrihi), and Ahmad reports a similar hadeeth from the hadeeth of Halb. And in the ‘Zawaa’id al-Musnad’ is the hadeeth of Alee that he placed his hands below the navel and it’s isnaad is da’eef.

It is clear from the words of al-Haafidh that he considered the hadeeth of Wa’il to be saheeh or hasan, because he mentioned here three hadeeth for the purpose of appointing the place where the hands are to be placed: the hadeeth of Wa’l, the hadeeth of Halb and the hadeeth of Alee. And he declared the hadeeth of Alee to be da’eef, and was silent about the hadeeth of Wa’il and Halb, and if these were also weak according to him then he would have made that clear...And also al-Haafidh made clear in ‘ad-Diraayah’, after mentioning the hadeeth of Wa’il reported by ibn Khuzaimah, ‘it is in Muslim without the words, "upon his chest".

So it is clear from the words of al-Haafidh that this hadeeth is reported in Muslim, with the same text and sanad, but without mentioning where the hands were to be placed.

In conclusion the hadeeth of Wa’il bin Hujr is saheeh and acceptable to depend upon and to derive evidence that placing the hands on the chest in prayer is totally correct.

And from the ahaadeeth these scholars depend upon is the hadeeth of Tawoos reported by Abu Dawood in ‘al-Maraaseel’ who said, ‘Abu Tawba narrated to us from al-Haytham i.e. ibn Humaid from Thawr from Sulaiman bin Musa from Tawoos who said, ‘The Messenger of Allaah (SAW) placed his right hand upon his left and placed them firmly upon his chest while in prayer.

And this hadeeth is found in some of the texts of Abu Dawood. al-Haafidh al-Mizzi said in ‘al-Atraaf’ under the letter ‘taa’ from the book ‘al-Maraaseel’, ‘the hadeeth is reported by Abu Dawood in ‘Kitaab al-Maraaseel’ and this was likewise stated by al-Bayhaqee in ‘al-Ma’rifah’. And the hadeeth of Tawoos is mursal, because Tawoos is a Taabi’ee (so he could not have seen the Messenger (SAW)) and it’s isnaad is hasan. And the mursal hadeeth is considered a proof with Abu Hanifah and Maalik and Ahmad in general. And according to Shaafi’ee it is a proof when supported by something that occurs via another route that builds upon the first route be it musnad or mursal. And this mursal hadeeth is supported by the aforementioned hadeeth of Wa’il and Halb at-Taa’iee. So deriving evidence from these to place the hands upon the chest in prayer is correct.

Brother Muadh you have tried to claim as many of the hanafi ulama that the hadeeth of Wa’il is mudtarib (confused/confounded) because ibn Khuzaimah reports this hadeeth with the wording ‘upon the chest’ and al-Bazzar with the wording ‘near the chest’ and ibn Abee Shaybah with the wording ‘below the navel’.

it is firmly established in the Usul of Hadeeth that if the hadeeth simply differs in it’s wordings then this does not necessitate idtiraab. Rather from it’s conditions is that the different aspects of the narrations be equivalent in authenticity, so if one of the narrations is found to be stronger then it takes precedence, and if they are equivalent then one can find a reconciliation according to the principles of the Scholars of hadeeth.

And in this case the aspects of difference are not equivalent, for indeed affirming the wording of Ibn Abee Shaybah ‘below the navel’ poses a serious problem as has preceded. And as for the wording of ibn Khuzaimah, ‘upon the chest’, and the wording of al-Bazzar, ‘near the chest’, then the first is stronger and takes precedence over the second, the reason being that the first has supports with the hadeeth of Halb and the mursal of Tawoos, contrary to the second for it has no witnesses.......and even if we were to accept that they were equivalent then a reconciliation is possible - that the two narrations were reported with regards to two different prayers. And similar to this difference is the difference of the wording of the ahaadeeth to do with raising the hands to the level of the shoulders or to the level of the ears. [i.e. the narrations depict different prayers and it is permissible to do either/or].

"When a hadeeth is found to be saheeh, then that is my madhhab."-Imam Abu Hanifa

"Then let those beware who withstand the Messenger's order, lest some trial befall them or a grievous penalty be inflicted on them." [an-Noor, 24:63]

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to the hanifis this hadith proves sufficient and it is graded as Hasan...to the salafis they regard it as weak. because of a certain narrator known as 'Abdur-Rahman al Kufi'.

to ascertain why he is weak they quote Imam Nawai saying "Abdur Rahman is unanimously [Consensus] weak".

but this statement made by the Imam is in itself is weak because not every Scholar of Jarh and Ta'deel agrees with him...

those who regarded him as a Thiqah Wa Sudooq, were Imam Tirmidhi, Imam Ibn Khuzaimah, Imam Hakim, Imam Bazzar, Imam Ijli, Allamah Suyooti and others.

and also Imam Ibn Qayyim, Imam Diyaud-Din al Maqdisi [but these 2 Scholars i have to check to be sure].

hence these are all the appraisals

Abdur Rahman al Kufi was not labelled a liar in his life, it was because of his memory, but the Scholars that were leniant on him state his words are not equivalent to a Hafidh but Hadiths may be recorded from him...hence his appraisals.

Jazakallah, Brother.
Great Work! May Allah give you more guidance and further increase your knowledge. Ameen.

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assalamualaikum


thank you brother muadh you've made some good points but firstly let's discuss your own opinion:

The hadeeth of Alee (RA) reported by Abu Dawood, Ahmad, ibn Abee Shaybah, ad-Daaruqutnee, al-Bayhaqee and Abu Juhayfah that Alee said, ‘the Sunnah is to place the hand upon the hand below the navel.


Al-Haafidh az-Zayla’i said in ‘Nasb ar-Raayah’ after mentioning this hadeeth, ‘ibn Qattaan said, "Abd ar-Rahmaan bin Ishaaq, he is ibn al-Harb Abu Shaybah al-Waasitee and ibn Hanbal and Abu Haatim said about him, "rejected in hadeeth." And ibn Ma’een said, "he is nothing." And Bukhaaree said, "there is a problem in him." And al-Bayhaqee said in ‘al-Ma’rifah’, "it’s isnaad is not authentic, And ar-Rahmaan bin Ishaaq al-Waasitee is alone in reporting it and he is abandoned." And an-Nawawee said in ‘al-Khulaasa’ and ‘Sharh Saheeh Muslim’, "and it is a hadeeth which is weak by agreement for Abd ar-Rahmaan bin Ishaaq is weak by agreement

Abu Dawood reports on the authority of Jarir ad-Dabbi that he said, ‘I saw Alee placing his right hand upon his left wrist above the navel.’ So the principle of our scholars is that when the Companion acts contrary to what he narrates then this indicates the abrogation of what is narrated.’

have not come across a marfu’ hadeeth that lends evidence to this position. Yes there is the narration of Alee (RA) which indicates this, as reported by Abu Dawood in his ‘Sunan’ from Jareer ad-Dabbi who said, ‘I saw Alee grasping his left wrist with his right hand above the navel.’

This isnaad is saheeh or hasan, but it is the action of Alee and is not marfu’. Also the clear meaning of his saying, ‘above the navel’ is a place raised from the navel, i.e. upon the chest or near the chest, as occurs in the hadeeth of Wa’il bin Hujr and the hadeeth of Halb at-Taa’ee and the mursal of Tawwoos, and these three ahaadeeth will follow. And this interpretation is supported by his (RA) tafseer of His saying, "wanhar" by placing the hands upon the chest in the prayer as has preceded.

Now lets take a look at the hadith which you have shed your views on, the hadith of Wa’il bin Hujr who said, ‘I prayed with the Messenger of Allaah (SAW) and he placed his right hand upon his left on his chest in the prayer.’

Reported by ibn Khuzaimah, and this hadeeth is authentic, authenticated by ibn Khuzaimah as was made clear by ibn Sayyid an-Naas in his ‘Sharh at-Tirmidhee.

ash-Shaikh Muhammad Qaa’im as-Sindee al-Hanafee acknowledges this in his letter, ‘Fawz al-Kiraam’ that this hadeeth fulfills the conditions of ibn Khuzaimah where he says, ‘I believe that this hadeeth fulfills the conditions of ibn Khuzaimah, and this is strongly suggested in the manner of al-Haafidh in ‘al-Ittihaaf’, and is obvious from the words of ibn Sayyid an-Naas after he mentioned the hadeeth of Wa’il bin Hujr in ‘Sharh at-Tirmidhee’ - "and ibn Khuzaimah authenticated it".

ibn Ameer al-Haaj, who outdid his shaykh ibn al-Hammaam in research and depth of investigation, said in ‘Sharh al-Minniyyah’, ‘What is established in the Sunnah is to place the right hand upon the left in prayer, and there is no authentic hadeeth that establishes the place of placing them on the body except the aforementioned hadeeth of Wa’il.

nd this was likewise said by the author of ‘al-Bahr ar-Raa’iq’ as is found in ‘Fath al-Ghafoor’ of Shaikh Hayat as-Sindee.

al-Haafidh said in ‘Fath al-Baaree’{4}, ‘and he did not mention (i.e. Sahl bin Sa’d) the place to put them on the body. And ibn Khuzaimah reported from Wa’il that "he placed them upon his chest", and in al-Bazzaar (the wording is) "near his chest" (‘inda sadrihi), and Ahmad reports a similar hadeeth from the hadeeth of Halb. And in the ‘Zawaa’id al-Musnad’ is the hadeeth of Alee that he placed his hands below the navel and it’s isnaad is da’eef.

It is clear from the words of al-Haafidh that he considered the hadeeth of Wa’il to be saheeh or hasan, because he mentioned here three hadeeth for the purpose of appointing the place where the hands are to be placed: the hadeeth of Wa’l, the hadeeth of Halb and the hadeeth of Alee. And he declared the hadeeth of Alee to be da’eef, and was silent about the hadeeth of Wa’il and Halb, and if these were also weak according to him then he would have made that clear...And also al-Haafidh made clear in ‘ad-Diraayah’, after mentioning the hadeeth of Wa’il reported by ibn Khuzaimah, ‘it is in Muslim without the words, "upon his chest".

So it is clear from the words of al-Haafidh that this hadeeth is reported in Muslim, with the same text and sanad, but without mentioning where the hands were to be placed.

In conclusion the hadeeth of Wa’il bin Hujr is saheeh and acceptable to depend upon and to derive evidence that placing the hands on the chest in prayer is totally correct.

And from the ahaadeeth these scholars depend upon is the hadeeth of Tawoos reported by Abu Dawood in ‘al-Maraaseel’ who said, ‘Abu Tawba narrated to us from al-Haytham i.e. ibn Humaid from Thawr from Sulaiman bin Musa from Tawoos who said, ‘The Messenger of Allaah (SAW) placed his right hand upon his left and placed them firmly upon his chest while in prayer.

And this hadeeth is found in some of the texts of Abu Dawood. al-Haafidh al-Mizzi said in ‘al-Atraaf’ under the letter ‘taa’ from the book ‘al-Maraaseel’, ‘the hadeeth is reported by Abu Dawood in ‘Kitaab al-Maraaseel’ and this was likewise stated by al-Bayhaqee in ‘al-Ma’rifah’. And the hadeeth of Tawoos is mursal, because Tawoos is a Taabi’ee (so he could not have seen the Messenger (SAW)) and it’s isnaad is hasan. And the mursal hadeeth is considered a proof with Abu Hanifah and Maalik and Ahmad in general. And according to Shaafi’ee it is a proof when supported by something that occurs via another route that builds upon the first route be it musnad or mursal. And this mursal hadeeth is supported by the aforementioned hadeeth of Wa’il and Halb at-Taa’iee. So deriving evidence from these to place the hands upon the chest in prayer is correct.

Brother Muadh you have tried to claim as many of the hanafi ulama that the hadeeth of Wa’il is mudtarib (confused/confounded) because ibn Khuzaimah reports this hadeeth with the wording ‘upon the chest’ and al-Bazzar with the wording ‘near the chest’ and ibn Abee Shaybah with the wording ‘below the navel’.

it is firmly established in the Usul of Hadeeth that if the hadeeth simply differs in it’s wordings then this does not necessitate idtiraab. Rather from it’s conditions is that the different aspects of the narrations be equivalent in authenticity, so if one of the narrations is found to be stronger then it takes precedence, and if they are equivalent then one can find a reconciliation according to the principles of the Scholars of hadeeth.

And in this case the aspects of difference are not equivalent, for indeed affirming the wording of Ibn Abee Shaybah ‘below the navel’ poses a serious problem as has preceded. And as for the wording of ibn Khuzaimah, ‘upon the chest’, and the wording of al-Bazzar, ‘near the chest’, then the first is stronger and takes precedence over the second, the reason being that the first has supports with the hadeeth of Halb and the mursal of Tawoos, contrary to the second for it has no witnesses.......and even if we were to accept that they were equivalent then a reconciliation is possible - that the two narrations were reported with regards to two different prayers. And similar to this difference is the difference of the wording of the ahaadeeth to do with raising the hands to the level of the shoulders or to the level of the ears. [i.e. the narrations depict different prayers and it is permissible to do either/or].

"When a hadeeth is found to be saheeh, then that is my madhhab."-Imam Abu Hanifa

"Then let those beware who withstand the Messenger's order, lest some trial befall them or a grievous penalty be inflicted on them." [an-Noor, 24:63]

W-Salam my Dear Respected Brother,

Jazakullah Khairun for your Husnud-Dhun on me and elavating the opinions of Muhadetheen to "my opinion".

If you had taken care to read the entire thread and the PDF provided then you would have found the answers to your queries.

Please read Mufti Soofi_Saheb's post:

http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/show...64&postcount=6

And PDF from Shaykh Abul-Hasan here:

http://www.mediafire.com/?9hmml2gxzut

Now lets look at the Hadeeth of Wai'l Ibn Hujr (RA) starting with Imam Nawawi (RA)'s opinion:

Imam Nimawi says, 'It's isnad is questionable and the additional wording 'on his chest' is inauthentic and not established.'

Please READ the whole post in full, Insha'Allah

http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/show...5&postcount=13

That's the agument from day one that Scholars have differed on this matter and the Ummah has acted "differently" Alhumdo-lillah; till attempts are made to ram one opinion down everyone's throat!

P.S: Yep! The scan of commentary of Bulughul-Maram clearly says that it is Mursal Saheeh...but if Madakhalee are prepared to Mursal Saheeh as evidence then the Hadeeth about the differences between the Salah of men & women is also Mursal Saheeh.

[deethythitoth]

i think Brother omar missed the appraisals of other Scholars regarding the narration of Ali [ra] which is found in Abu Dawood, not forgetting Imam Ibn Qayyim regarded the narration as sahih and has designated it in his book. Subhan-Allah!


very good reply Brother Muadh.

ameen to your Du'a Brother Talhah

[Cwvnyfsj]

jazakallah khaire brother

yes i have read the pdf now however i am still not convinced an i am not going to go any further into this debate for i am nothing to the great uluma and i will reccomend you to read Shaikh Muhammed Naasir-ud-Deen Al-Albaani's works about the prayer of the prophet (s.a.w) also read fiqh us sunna by shiekh syed sabbiq inshallah this should help you a great deal.


Brotherthe scholars have differed on many issues however these days we have the kitaabs and tafsirs easily avalible to us and thier can only be 1 right way, so we should strive to find it even if it leaves the opinions of the 4 imams(r.a) as they have all said if they're view contradicts with the sunnah leave it, they weren't infallible or something that they coulden't make mistakes but the way forward is we analyse all the oppinions and find the correct one for each issue.

and remember to have sincerity brother, that's the only way to achieve your goal.
Dear brother I pray that Allah (s.w.t) will guide you and show you the way of the Prophet (s.a.w)
wassalam