[pymnConyelell]

salam

i was in a discussion with an atheist abt shariah and the path/purpose of life and he blurted out do you believe that god is omnipotent.

"yes", i responded.

"well then could he create a rock that he couldn't lift"

have any of the great imams aqaid written any refutation on this subject, is there any real way to respond to such queery besides..."we muslims do not speak of such things as the countenance and majesty of allah is beyond us???" cos obviously that answer will appease a salafi but not an atheist.

[rNr5Di3S]

Hmmm. I don' t really get the question.

Edit: I get it now. Both Yes and No will be seemingly in the favour of the Questioner.

[pymnConyelell]

the dud ewas trying to pointout the perceived inconsistency in islamic belief

god is all powerful, and able

so can he create a rock, which even he cannot lift?

to him the respresents a major flaw in islamic belief and religion in general.

[ReneCM]

I answered this question on the following thread:
http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/show...otence-paradox

a relevant quote from Nuh Keller:

The possible or impossible for Allah Most High involves the divine attribute of qudra or omnipotence, "what He can do". This attribute in turn relates exclusively to the intrinsically possible, not to what is intrinsically impossible, as Allah says, "Verily Allah has power over every thing" (Qur'an 20:29), "thing" being something that in principle can exist. For example, if one asks "Can Allah create square circle?" the answer is that His omnipotence does not relate to it, for a square circle does not refer to anything that in principle could exist: the speaker does not have a distinct idea of what he means, but is merely using a jumble of words.
Similarly, if one were to ask, "Can Allah terminate His own existence?" the answer is that the divine omnipotence does not relate to this; it is intrinsically impossible (mustahil dhati), for the divine nature necessarily entails the divine perfections, of which Being is one. It is impossible that Allah could cease to have this perfection or any other, for otherwise He would not be God.
There are thus things that are necessarily true of God (that He cannot not be); and their opposites, things which are necessarily impossible of God. In terms of the question above, the choice to forgive everyone, that is, to simply suspend the implications of the Qur'anic verses and hadiths that indicate that some classes of people will never leave hell, is not intrinsically impossible (mustahil dhati) for Allah, in that it does not involve something inherently impossible as does the square circle, or negate something inherently true by the very nature of the Divine. Then why didn't any scholar ever think of it? Because for Islamic orthodoxy, there is another class of both the necessary and the impossible that the divine attribute of omnipotence (qudra) has no relation to; namely, that which is necessary or impossible because, although not so a priori, it has become necessary or impossible by being connected with the knowledge ('ilm) of Allah and His beginninglessly eternal attribute of speech, in His informing us of it.
For example, Abu Lahab was born with apparently the same chance as anyone to hear the Prophet's message (Allah bless him and give him peace), enter Islam, and reach paradise. But when he persecuted the Muslims, and surat al-Masad (Qur'an 111) was subsequently revealed, and Allah manifested His beginninglessly eternal knowledge that Abu Lahab was of the people of hell. Although initially this outcome was merely contingent and possible, when the eternal Word of Allah connected with it, it became necessary, final, and inabrogable, for Allah only informs of what is in His knowledge, and His knowledge only conforms to what truly is, which is why no one alters the words of Allah (Qur'an 6:34), for otherwise His words would express ignorance, an attribute impossible for God, or lies, which equally contradict the nature of the Divine. If the above was too verbose, let me break it down for you in the following manner:

According to Islamic doctrine, God's ability (qudrah) applies to those things that possible. It does not relate to things that are impossible/absurdities, like a four-sided triangle. Since a triangle is by definition a three-sided object, the phrase "four-sided triangle" is an absurdity, merely words that carry no real meaning. Similarly, "an entity more powerful than God" is also such an absurdity, because God is by definition (according to Islamic doctrine at least) the most powerful entity. Therefore, his ability does not apply to it.
I would advise you not to discuss theology with atheists unless you are equipped to do so.

[rNr5Di3S]

Brother Nomadic is right. Its better not to debate with them.

But I myself is in a fix now. One of my schoolmates, he was a deeni person. He is showing symptoms of atheism. He is posting ambiguous statements in his profile. He is kinda dodging my questions too. Make Dua for Him.

[JewJoleSole]

A straight answer is: the question is flawed. Impossible stuff is not aplicable to Allah

It is like saying: is this wall next to you married?

You can't believe in a God being Powerfull and at the same being unpowerful to raise a rock.

[Ccddfergt]

i was in a discussion with an atheist abt shariah and the path/purpose of life and he blurted out do you believe that god is omnipotent.

"yes", i responded.

"well then could he create a rock that he couldn't lift"

and did i heard this "fooling ownself" question from any atheist for first time? No.

[CalBettaulp]

The very question is a stupid one.

Simply put, the first question he asked you was if God was omnipotent. Once you said yes, then asking if God can create something that He doesn't have power over is ridiculous, because it was already established by the last answer that God has power over everything.

By definition God is powerful over everything. Therefore, the mere proposition of a rock he had no power over is contradictory, and akin to asking about a four sided triangle.

[VistaULTIMATEdownloadaPro]

tell him this:

"your going to be an atheist because of that"?

[FelixQY]

Instead of bringing this question up again, you should've done a search as this has been discussed many times already. I'm scared this might endanger (or jeopardize) the Imaan of some readers.

[pymnConyelell]

maneatinglizard

Re: is god all powerful?


The very question is a stupid one.

Simply put, the first question he asked you was if God was omnipotent. Once you said yes, then asking if God can create something that He doesn't have power over is ridiculous, because it was already established by the last answer that God has power over everything.

By definition God is powerful over everything. Therefore, the mere proposition of a rock he had no power over is contradictory, and akin to asking about a four sided triangle. best anwser.

[pymnConyelell]

salam

Instead of bringing this question up again, you should've done a search as this has been discussed many times already. I'm scared this might endanger (or jeopardize) the Imaan of some readers. with the sound refutation by br. maneatinglizard and Shaykh Nuh Keller (db) i don't think it is possible for someones emaan to be jeopardized by this thread. nonetheless you're concern has been noted.

[XGoFivk7]

May Allah reward all the brothers who replied to this thread.

Masha Allah, the Ummah shows it can deal with these kinds of inquiries which the kufar spew just as they did during the time of An Nabi (saaw).

It is important for us to address such questions in public forums like this. It is NOT useful to hide these discussions as the kufar have made it part of the education curriculum throughout the West.

Rather, we have to address it.

So the issue of Omnipotence is not new.

Allah created the Laws of the Universe which enabled the formation of a stone with limited mass, limited atomic structure, etc. By definition, a stone contains limited mass, limited structure. To give it attributes which defy this would mean its no longer a stone. What is it?

Such a line of questioning leads to the imagination. Why should the imagination of an atheist be the grounds for discourse?
It shouldn't. If one is going to discuss with a kafir these types of philosophical questions, they should be prepared to do so, and also keep the format based on reality- not the absurdities and imagination of the kufar.

Because kufr is not based on reason or reality.


But what really is the issue in this that kufr is irrational. KUFR does NOT comply with reality or reasoning. Rather, its like the criminal mind: prone to irrationalities. Like the bank robber who leaves his ID at the cashier counter.

[XGoFivk7]

Brother Nomadic is right. Its better not to debate with them.

But I myself is in a fix now. One of my schoolmates, he was a deeni person. He is showing symptoms of atheism. He is posting ambiguous statements in his profile. He is kinda dodging my questions too. Make Dua for Him.

Brother, try to find out what issues he is confused about or doubting. Then, if he is avoiding discussions with you, hand him a book which addresses the topic which he is questioning.

And try to find such a book that will appeal to him.

May Allah reward you for your good deeds and keep this brother on the Right Path.

[Cuccuccaltefe]

salam

i was in a discussion with an atheist abt shariah and the path/purpose of life and he blurted out do you believe that god is omnipotent.

"yes", i responded.

"well then could he create a rock that he couldn't lift"

have any of the great imams aqaid written any refutation on this subject, is there any real way to respond to such queery besides..."we muslims do not speak of such things as the countenance and majesty of allah is beyond us???" cos obviously that answer will appease a salafi but not an atheist.

Answer him "Allah swt can create a rock He cant lift and then lift it to show His ultimate power and then crack it on your head."

Stop having "discussions" with atheist when you dont got the alif in your stomach first.

[Malinguenem]

The answer I heard for this questions was ..."He is too busy preparing the fires of Hell for people who ask these kind of questions"

[XGoFivk7]

The answer I heard for this questions was ..."He is too busy preparing the fires of Hell for people who ask these kind of questions"

Nah, he has the angels of punishment running Hell.

Allah AWJ in his Glory and Majesty is far above the likes of such rebellious morsels of flesh who dare question His existance in this life.

Suratul Hud 11:18-22:
;
Who doeth greater wrong than he who inventeth a lie concerning Allah? Such will be brought before their Lord, and the witnesses will say: These are they who lied concerning their Lord. Now the curse of Allah is upon wrong-doers, (18)
Who debar (men) from the way of Allah and would have it crooked, and who are disbelievers in the Hereafter. (19)
Such will not escape in the earth, nor have they any protecting friends beside Allah. For them the torment will be double. They could not bear to hear, and they used not to see. (20)
Such are they who have lost their souls, and that which they used to invent hath failed them. (21)
Assuredly in the Hereafter they will be the greatest losers. (22)


Here's an excellent suggestion in dealing with these types:
Suratul Imran 3:61
And whoso disputeth with thee concerning him, after the knowledge which hath come unto thee, say (unto him): Come! We will summon our sons and your sons, and our women and your women, and ourselves and yourselves, then we will pray humbly (to our Lord) and (solemnly) invoke the curse of Allah upon those who lie. (61)

[VistaULTIMATEdownloadaPro]

Instead of bringing this question up again, you should've done a search as this has been discussed many times already. I'm scared this might endanger (or jeopardize) the Imaan of some readers.

lol who is going to become atheist because of that?

Its a stupid question.

Its like saying, does dawud beale have blue blond eyes or green brown eyes. Neither? Oh he doesnt exist then. Or does dawud beale bsheyf or gsirh? Oh, dawud doesnt exist.

The question itself is nonsensical and i cant believe any person would become atheist because of this. The atheist movement truely is intellectually bankrupt

[BeksTeene]

May Allah reward all the brothers who replied to this thread.

Masha Allah, the Ummah shows it can deal with these kinds of inquiries which the kufar spew just as they did during the time of An Nabi (saaw).

It is important for us to address such questions in public forums like this. It is NOT useful to hide these discussions as the kufar have made it part of the education curriculum throughout the West.

Rather, we have to address it.

So the issue of Omnipotence is not new.

Allah created the Laws of the Universe which enabled the formation of a stone with limited mass, limited atomic structure, etc. By definition, a stone contains limited mass, limited structure. To give it attributes which defy this would mean its no longer a stone. What is it?

Such a line of questioning leads to the imagination. Why should the imagination of an atheist be the grounds for discourse?
It shouldn't. If one is going to discuss with a kafir these types of philosophical questions, they should be prepared to do so, and also keep the format based on reality- not the absurdities and imagination of the kufar.

Because kufr is not based on reason or reality.

But what really is the issue in this that kufr is irrational. KUFR does NOT comply with reality or reasoning. Rather, its like the criminal mind: prone to irrationalities. Like the bank robber who leaves his ID at the cashier counter.