[propolo]

mods please delete the old thread and inshallah everyone only post here if its with evidences.

Anyone whos got something to post now feel free, if not ill be back in a few days inshallah to start the discussion but it will be in this thread not the other one as the discussion will go on forever otherwise.

Anyone who disagrees with the very existence of the thread please simply dont view the thread, and dont post your disaproval here as u will be ignored.

Anyone who disagrees with rumis poetry please bring forth good examples for a discussion to start as i am currently on a mobile phone so copy and pasting is not available to me currently so may take time for me to start posting things up.

Sorry if i approached this the wrong way. Hope u understand its only out of love for allah and hatred of bounds being transgressed even if i errored in my conducted due to high emotions.

Barak allahu feek

[propolo]

can i ask if there is any works attributed to rumi that anyone considers to be in authentic, so i cant count that out? For example, his students attributed work to him, will u accept these as his work?

Also, in terms of format, id like to simply bring poetry, without giving any commentary, and you guys to explain what you feel the meaning of that poem is. If it becomes clear that there is no reasonable explanation for the poem i post, u will accept that he should not be learned from or promoted inshallah. Agreed?

[unatkot]

Ibn taymiyah(rh) says in Majmu'a Fatawi :


This state of love is the state of many people that are from the people of Love to Allah 'azza wa jall, they are the people of the love of Allah and the People of the Will (al-Irada) of Allah (it is typical of many of the people that love God and seek Him.)
Because that person has vanished in his lover, in Allah 'azza wa jall--through the intensity of the love, because He vanished in Allah's love, not his own ego's love. And he will recall Allah, not recalling himself, remember Allah not remembering himself, visualizing Allah [yastashhid], not visualizing himself, existing in Allah, not in the existence of himself.
,
When he reaches that stage, he no longer feels his own existence. And that is why he says in this state, "Ana al-Haqq" (I am the Truth), or "Subhanee. (Glory to Me!)" and he will say "maa fil jubba ill-Allah" (there is nothing in this cloak except Allah), because he is drunk in the love of God and this is a pleasure and happiness that he cannot control."

Further on Sheikh ul Islam Ibn Taymiyya says in same above book :
,
"This [matter] has in it Haqq and there is in it Batil. But when someone will enter a state with his fervor intense love ('ishq) to Allah, he will enter a state of absentmindedness, and when he enters the state of absentmindedness, he will find himself as if he is accepting the [concept] ittihad. I do not consider this a sin. Because that person is excused and no one may punish him as he is not aware of what he is doing. Because the pen does not condemn the crazy except when he is restored to sanity

. And when that person is in that state and he was wrong in what he did, he will be under Allah's address:
"Rabbana laa tuakhidhna in-nasseeena aw akhtaana" "O Our Lord, do not take us to task if we forget or make mistakes." (Baqara, 286)

"And Allah says in other verse, "wa laa junaaha 'alaykum fimaa akhtaatum bihi" "there is no blame on you if you unintentionally do a mistake."

Sahih Muslim Book 037, Number 6618:

Anas b. Malik reported that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: Allah is more pleased with the repentance of a servant as he turns towards Him for repentance than this that one amongst you is upon the camel in a waterless desert and there is upon (that camel) his provision of food and drink also and it is lost by him, and he having lost all hope....(to get it back) lies down in the shadow and is disappointed about his camel and there he finds that camel standing before him. He takes hold of his nosestring and then out of boundless joy says: 0 Lord, Thou art my servant and I am Thine Lord. He commits this mistake out of extreme delight.

Here from about hadith it proves that if some one says objectional words in a state of Ecstasy, unintentionally , Swoon, or when his mind or body is not in his control than it cannot be considered as Kufr.

u will accept that he should not be learned from or promoted inshallah. Agreed?

yes, laymen got nothing to do with those books. ITs just publishers translate those books, and brings to the laymen and in the market for business sake.

[propolo]

Ibn taymiyah(rh) says in Majmu'a Fatawi :


This state of love is the state of many people that are from the people of Love to Allah 'azza wa jall, they are the people of the love of Allah and the People of the Will (al-Irada) of Allah (it is typical of many of the people that love God and seek Him.)
Because that person has vanished in his lover, in Allah 'azza wa jall--through the intensity of the love, because He vanished in Allah's love, not his own ego's love. And he will recall Allah, not recalling himself, remember Allah not remembering himself, visualizing Allah [yastashhid], not visualizing himself, existing in Allah, not in the existence of himself.
,
When he reaches that stage, he no longer feels his own existence. And that is why he says in this state, "Ana al-Haqq" (I am the Truth), or "Subhanee. (Glory to Me!)" and he will say "maa fil jubba ill-Allah" (there is nothing in this cloak except Allah), because he is drunk in the love of God and this is a pleasure and happiness that he cannot control."

Further on Sheikh ul Islam Ibn Taymiyya says in same above book :
,
"This [matter] has in it Haqq and there is in it Batil. But when someone will enter a state with his fervor intense love ('ishq) to Allah, he will enter a state of absentmindedness, and when he enters the state of absentmindedness, he will find himself as if he is accepting the [concept] ittihad. I do not consider this a sin. Because that person is excused and no one may punish him as he is not aware of what he is doing. Because the pen does not condemn the crazy except when he is restored to sanity

. And when that person is in that state and he was wrong in what he did, he will be under Allah's address:
"Rabbana laa tuakhidhna in-nasseeena aw akhtaana" "O Our Lord, do not take us to task if we forget or make mistakes." (Baqara, 286)

"And Allah says in other verse, "wa laa junaaha 'alaykum fimaa akhtaatum bihi" "there is no blame on you if you unintentionally do a mistake."

Sahih Muslim Book 037, Number 6618:

Anas b. Malik reported that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: Allah is more pleased with the repentance of a servant as he turns towards Him for repentance than this that one amongst you is upon the camel in a waterless desert and there is upon (that camel) his provision of food and drink also and it is lost by him, and he having lost all hope....(to get it back) lies down in the shadow and is disappointed about his camel and there he finds that camel standing before him. He takes hold of his nosestring and then out of boundless joy says: 0 Lord, Thou art my servant and I am Thine Lord. He commits this mistake out of extreme delight.

Here from about hadith it proves that if some one says objectional words in a state of Ecstasy, unintentionally , Swoon, or when his mind or body is not in his control than it cannot be considered as Kufr.
yes, laymen got nothing to do with those books. ITs just publishers translate those books, and brings to the laymen and in the market for business sake.

ok brother jazak allahu khair, so your point is that we shouldnt call sufis who utter heresey as a kafir? I will make two points on this inshallah

1 even if we agree not to call him a kafir, why teach his books and praise him and love his poetry? In the hadeeth you mentioned, we are not supposed to say 'subahanallah, i am your lord and you are my slave, how deep and spiritual, im going to spread these words everywhere and teach them to people'. Your supposed to say 'may allah forgive you brother, i think you meant to say you are my lord and i am your slave'.


2 if we follow hanafi fiqh, what does bahishti zawar say on the issue?

'apostacy

2. Once a person utters the words of kufr, imaan will no longer remain with him. All the pious deeds and forms of ibaadah which he may have fulfilled while he was muslim will be rendered null and void'

point number 1 mentions a male who renounces islam is given three days to recant and is thenm executed.

So if rumi was alive, he would have had three days to leave his intoxication before execution so thats more than enough time to chill out after getting dizzy from spinning round too much

[adoreorerie]

J

Ibn taymiyah(rh) says in Majmu'a Fatawi :


This state of love is the state of many people that are from the people of Love to Allah 'azza wa jall, they are the people of the love of Allah and the People of the Will (al-Irada) of Allah (it is typical of many of the people that love God and seek Him.)
Because that person has vanished in his lover, in Allah 'azza wa jall--through the intensity of the love, because He vanished in Allah's love, not his own ego's love. And he will recall Allah, not recalling himself, remember Allah not remembering himself, visualizing Allah [yastashhid], not visualizing himself, existing in Allah, not in the existence of himself.
,
When he reaches that stage, he no longer feels his own existence. And that is why he says in this state, "Ana al-Haqq" (I am the Truth), or "Subhanee. (Glory to Me!)" and he will say "maa fil jubba ill-Allah" (there is nothing in this cloak except Allah), because he is drunk in the love of God and this is a pleasure and happiness that he cannot control."

Further on Sheikh ul Islam Ibn Taymiyya says in same above book :
,
"This [matter] has in it Haqq and there is in it Batil. But when someone will enter a state with his fervor intense love ('ishq) to Allah, he will enter a state of absentmindedness, and when he enters the state of absentmindedness, he will find himself as if he is accepting the [concept] ittihad. I do not consider this a sin. Because that person is excused and no one may punish him as he is not aware of what he is doing. Because the pen does not condemn the crazy except when he is restored to sanity

. And when that person is in that state and he was wrong in what he did, he will be under Allah's address:
"Rabbana laa tuakhidhna in-nasseeena aw akhtaana" "O Our Lord, do not take us to task if we forget or make mistakes." (Baqara, 286)

"And Allah says in other verse, "wa laa junaaha 'alaykum fimaa akhtaatum bihi" "there is no blame on you if you unintentionally do a mistake."

Sahih Muslim Book 037, Number 6618:

Anas b. Malik reported that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: Allah is more pleased with the repentance of a servant as he turns towards Him for repentance than this that one amongst you is upon the camel in a waterless desert and there is upon (that camel) his provision of food and drink also and it is lost by him, and he having lost all hope....(to get it back) lies down in the shadow and is disappointed about his camel and there he finds that camel standing before him. He takes hold of his nosestring and then out of boundless joy says: 0 Lord, Thou art my servant and I am Thine Lord. He commits this mistake out of extreme delight.

Here from about hadith it proves that if some one says objectional words in a state of Ecstasy, unintentionally , Swoon, or when his mind or body is not in his control than it cannot be considered as Kufr.
yes, laymen got nothing to do with those books. ITs just publishers translate those books, and brings to the laymen and in the market for business sake.

Jazak'Allah khayr for that. Where did you pull that from?

[unatkot]

ok brother jazak allahu khair, so your point is that we shouldnt call sufis who utter heresey as a kafir?

calling anyone kafir isnt our duty. Declaring a person a kafir is duty of Qadi. What we can do is, condemn the words which seems to contain kufr and make aware to others not to read this. Preaching those words which seems to contain kufr is Haram, and accepting those as it appears is Kufr. And regarding what the writer wrote; if he is alive, let him face infront of shariah court and if he is dead, let it between him and Allah.


PS: i also have the question in my mind since couple of years, why people bother to quote/write down those quote of "ulama" whose comments are like "kufr", yet they eagerly publish those words!

I dont need any interprataion of those comments, wouldnt have it better not to quote those at first hand!!

I mean we got enough text which talks about Haq and love, why do we need to mention texts which words are kufr yet the context or interpratation is not kufr!

to publish some highness of certain saints, they put iman of 1000 laymen in danger.

[propolo]

ok then we agree, no need to curse or make takfeer, i shouldnt have done it and it was out of anger. But we should condemn the spread of kufr, i.e. Condemn the words themselves and their spread etc out of concern for the iman of the muslimeen. Sounds balanced and reasonable inshallah, barak allahu feek.

Also i agree, why spread those words, when we have many other ayaat, hadeeth, works of ulema, poems etc etc that can still captivate us without the dangerous consequences that may come with certain poetry etc.

Also in my oppinion, it was dabbling in this stuff that lead the ottomans and ultimately the muslims in general to destruction. Allah allowed us to be crushed, there must be a reason for that. If there is something that brought us into decline, removing that problem should bring us back out of decline inshallah t'ala and so if people stick the works, of say, shaikh abdul qadir al jilani rahimahullah, imam nawawi etc, we're all happy, salafis, deobandis etc etc, plus no danger of kufr from the great a'immah of this ummah. I say stick to scholars like imam nawawi, ibn hajr, ibn taimiyyah etc and even though we have some smaller disputesm the serious issues of clear kufr are removed inshallah

[propolo]

J

Jazak'Allah khayr for that. Where did you pull that from?

he quoted ibn taimiyyahs majmu fatawa as one reference plus saheeh muslim as the other reference.

The hadeeth is well known as it is the basis of one of the shuroot of takfeer, that if someone says or does kufr akbar by mistake then takfeer isnt pronounced. The other two shuroot (conditions) are 2 that it wasnt by force (the evidence is the sahaba who was forced to speak ill of the prophet salallahu alayhi wassalam and the prophet approving of this) and 3 that he didnt say it out of ignorance (due to the man who wanted his body to be ground up into dust out of fear of allahs punishment).

[unatkot]

J

Jazak'Allah khayr for that. Where did you pull that from?

you can read in sh.zakariya(rh)´s "shariat wa tariqat" for details where he quoted ibn taymiyha(rh) and others in details in the chapter of "Estoric utternace". the book is translated and also availble in internet.

[blogforlovxr]

I heard from a student of knowledge that the Prophet words were simple that the bedouin and town dwellers could all easily understand. So if there is a poet whose poetry can be misunderstood for kufr or shirk, then that means he's not a good poet and shouldnt write poetry because he of his inability to get his point across.

I'm not saying Rumi falls into this category or not because I dont know about him.

[blogforlovxr]

I was text this today:

"What does it mean to learn the knowledge of Gods Unity?

To consume yourself in the presence of the One.

If you wish to shine like the day,

burn up the night of self-existence.

Dissolve in the Being who is everything.

You grabbed hold of "I" and "We,"

and this dualism is your ruin."

Rumi, Mathnawi, 3009-3012, tr. Helminski

[unatkot]

I heard from a student of knowledge that the Prophet words were simple that the bedouin and town dwellers could all easily understand. So if there is a poet whose poetry can be misunderstood for kufr or shirk, then that means he's not a good poet and shouldnt write poetry because he of his inability to get his point across.

I'm not saying Rumi falls into this category or not because I dont know about him.

poet is not easy to understand and prophet statement wasnt poet. so prophet:saw statement was in need to be always simple so that each and every people can understand and practise it; but poet doesnt carry same aim so poet doesnt need to be in simple langauge either.

[12Jasoumemoobia]

I was text this today:

"What does it mean to learn the knowledge of Gods Unity?

To consume yourself in the presence of the One.

If you wish to shine like the day,

burn up the night of self-existence.

Dissolve in the Being who is everything.

You grabbed hold of "I" and "We,"

and this dualism is your ruin."

Rumi, Mathnawi, 3009-3012, tr. Helminski

Salaams.

Maulana Rumi was also a Scholar, secondly his work was written in the Persian language.
When you translate a work of poetry into a Foreign language , the poetry loses its original meaning and is open to misinterpretation.

Maulana Rumis work has been translated by non-muslims and modernised too appeal to a western audience. So the English translation are a misrepresentation of the original,by the so called "new Age" movement in the west has hijacked alot of his work.

The books of Rumis poetry have been written mostly by Coleman Bark. And Coleman Bark by his own admission has by his own admission has not translated from the original persian language. Rather he
has taken the translations already available in Traditional English and re-produced those those into modern English.

Finally persian, urdu poetry uses alot of metaphors and cannot accurately be translated in English.

[soryalomop]

Salaams.

Maulana Rumi was also a Scholar, secondly his work was written in the Persian language.
When you translate a work of poetry into a Foreign language , the poetry loses its original meaning and is open to misinterpretation.

Maulana Rumis work has been translated by non-muslims and modernised too appeal to a western audience. So the English translation are a misrepresentation of the original,by the so called "new Age" movement in the west has hijacked alot of his work.

The books of Rumis poetry have been written mostly by Coleman Bark. And Coleman Bark by his own admission has by his own admission has not translated from the original persian language. Rather he
has taken the translations already available in Traditional English and re-produced those those into modern English.

Finally persian, urdu poetry uses alot of metaphors and cannot accurately be translated in English.

Very true.

The mis-translation has been analyzed in this website:

http://www.dar-al-masnavi.org/ (pay attention, it seems it has a virus/malware/trojan/something..)