[Jannet.K]

Assalamu alaikum brothers & sisters.
I came across this video last night.
As a new Muslim I am still trying to learn as much as I can, so my question is:
these honor killings the western media talk about, are they just a cultural thing?
Because to me as a new Muslim they don't seem Islamic or is it a part of Islam?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=favzl...e_gdata_player

[nilliraq]

Wa 'alaikum assalam wa rahmatullah,

These killings can never be Islamic. I am not a scholar, but it is explicit that our deen does not permit unlawful killings such as the one shown in the video. We as Muslims should seek the honour of Allah and not mankind, if our child wrongs we should be patient and guide them inshaa Allah. The method in the video is unislamic. I have seen in my culture even how children are pushed to please their parents egos, sometimes they can't even sit in the park for what if somebody comes and says something. Common things like what will my childs in laws say when they can't do housework, the mother didn't teach them etc and the list goes on. However, we should only seek Allah's honour, makes life many times easier inshaa Allah.

[kjanyeaz1]

Asalaamu Alaikum,

Let me make it clear, since it doesn't need a scholar or anyone learned to tell you this - "Honor Killings, have absolutly nothing/zero to do with Islam. It's completly CULTURAL. Islam considers life sacred and never in any way encourages this evil act". Those people that do it, are no better then those who "killed their baby daughters to save their family honors", which happened in pre-Islam arabia. The Prophet(pbuh) stopped this act, he hated it completly, and when he heard stories of people that did it in the past (before they became Muslims), he cried and used to say "If God gave me permission to punish people for the sins they commited before becomming Muslims, I would've started with those that buried their daughters".

Now, as a New Muslim, you need to be careful on going on those video's, i've just been there, so many negative and misleading comments regarding Islam, it can hurt your imaan (not mine, but for a new Muslim who isn't learned on such subjects, it can hurt their imaan).

May Allah(swt) make you knowledgable and guided, Inshallah.

[Liskaspexia]

Assalam alaykum,

Perhaps you should get your news from Al Jazeera instead of the other networks.

Wassalam

[Jannet.K]

Salams, thanks for your replies.
Was what I was thinking...
I don't watch news, tv or read papers for these reasons, but got this off a local Australian islamic site which isn't a serious site with as many knowledgable members this one, hence why I posted my question here & not there.

[bertanu]

No, they have nothing to do with Islam. Islam in no way allows a person to murder their daughter or sister because they suspect them of having committed a sexual act. It is a cultural thing; such things were very common throughout all Mediterranean cultures up until very recent times. Italy, Spain, and Greece were some of the areas where this occurred most frequently mainly because those cultures retained ideas such as honor for longer than the northern European countries did.

[Crazykz]

السلام عليكم

There's nothing honourable about killing.

[DumbNelmcrece]

فقال ناس لسعد بن عبادة يا أبا ثابت قد نزلت الحدود لو أنك وجدت مع امرأتك رجلا كيف كنت صانعا قال كنت ضاربهما بالسيف حتى يسكتا أفأنا أذهب فأجمع أربعة شهداء فإلى ذلك قد قضى الحاجة فانطلقوا فاجتمعوا عند رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم فقالوا يا رسول الله ألم تر إلى أبي ثابت قال كذا وكذا فقال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم كفى بالسيف شاهدا
ثم قال لا لا أخاف أن يتتابع فيها السكران والغيران
The people said to Sa'd ibn Ubadah: Abu Thabit, the prescribed punishments have been revealed: if you find a man with your wife, what will you do? He said: I shall strike them with a sword so much that they become silent (i.e. die). Should I go and gather four witnesses? Until that (time) the need would be fulfilled.
So they went away and gathered with the Apostle of Allah (peace be upon him) and said: Apostle of Allah! did you not see Abu Thabit. He said so-and-so. The Apostle of Allah (peace be upon him) said: The sword is a sufficient witness. He then said: No, no, a furious and a jealous man may follow this course. [Sunan Abi Daud]

A truly honorable man who possesses gheerah, if he sees his wife with another man will kill them both, he will not even bother to gather witnesses, etc. And the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم approved of this. This is the type of "honor killing" which is Islamic.

[Sxedlawb]

Yes! one can not kill . Any punishment should given out are decided by Qadhi / Mufti secpecialist in relavent field.
Only A Jahil (untrainted in islamic sciences) would try to derive shariah by mere reading of relegious text. the khawarij used to be like this but then again those who call themselves relegious and tries to justify this stance are no more then neo khawarij. They do not feel the need not to adopt any due process as they take the law on their own hand. Such people in my opinion need be punished. They also ignore the context of those narration.
No true adherent to a school of thought will ever resort to this as they are bound by the principles of due process.
There is no honour in killing for a civilian. It is rather a manifestation of a society that seems unable to stand up or find a valid recourse. Emotion takes hold as one feels completely lost and betrayed by their family member. Parents and the soceities unwillingness to change and deal with the symptom (by ignoring shair priniciples) results in such crime in the name of honour.

Allahualam

[Jifyicyfuhpop]

This is what happens. These people go to these countries, to pursue a "better" life for themselves. They find more "freedom" in these countries. Then they bring their family over there.

Then the wife and the husband, both go out to earn money so they can maintain their "better" lifestyle in these countries, leaving their children at the mercy of the western-minded teachers in western-schools.

After their child spend up to 8 hours in an environment, they ask her/him to observe Islamic values , something these kids are brainwashed day and night into believing are bad, backwards, and obsolete in their schools and the T.V.

When the kids don't turn out to be how these "parents", who really aren't there to teach them anything, yet want their kids to be what they can't teach them to be ( yeah ) , they get mad and start punishing them. The kids , who now have a totally different life( as well as lifestyle), react according to what they've been "taught" by the school and the environment, plus TV.

The Kids fight back, the parents fight harder. Ends up losing hope and killing them.

This is the "better" lifestyle these people hoped for, right?

My question to these people is :

Why did you go to these countries ? To have a better life? What kind of a "better" life requires the wife to go out and work like a donkey, and you working like a jackass doing jobs you'd never do in your own countries?

A Muslim prefers to lick the feet of these filthy kuffar for a few bucks, putting his prestige in their feet for a few bucks, to achieve a better lifestyle. Allah has not created us to be such people......................

[dselectronics]

This is what happens. These people go to these countries, to pursue a "better" life for themselves. They find more "freedom" in these countries. Then they bring their family over there.

Then the wife and the husband, both go out to earn money so they can maintain their "better" lifestyle in these countries, leaving their children at the mercy of the western-minded teachers in western-schools.

After their child spend up to 8 hours in an environment, they ask her/him to observe Islamic values , something these kids are brainwashed day and night into believing are bad, backwards, and obsolete in their schools and the T.V.

When the kids don't turn out to be how these "parents", who really aren't there to teach them anything, yet want their kids to be what they can't teach them to be ( yeah ) , they get mad and start punishing them. The kids , who now have a totally different life( as well as lifestyle), react according to what they've been "taught" by the school and the environment, plus TV.

The Kids fight back, the parents fight harder. Ends up losing hope and killing them.

This is the "better" lifestyle these people hoped for, right?

My question to these people is :

Why did you go to these countries ? To have a better life? What kind of a "better" life requires the wife to go out and work like a donkey, and you working like a jackass doing jobs you'd never do in your own countries?

A Muslim prefers to lick the feet of these filthy kuffar for a few bucks, putting his prestige in their feet for a few bucks, to achieve a better lifestyle. Allah has not created us to be such people......................

1) Are you claiming that there are no honour killings in Pakistan?

2) Do you believe that there are most honour killings in these countries then Muslim lands?



P.S: There is no honour in these killings but I am just using the words.

[Jifyicyfuhpop]

1) Are you claiming that there are no honour killings in Pakistan?

2) Do you believe that there are most honour killings in these countries then Muslim lands?



P.S: There is no honour in these killings but I am just using the words.

totally out of topic from my post. Won't answer

[chuecaloversvv]

^^^ No, Colonel isn't out of topic, if anybody is it's YOU. I mean seriously you made no sense.

[trubreTab]

Yeah leave the WEST alone, it's everybody's darling.

Make a new thread cursing the west please. Don't use these threads for insulting the west.

[CuittisIL]

Whether it's the darling or not, the point of sis Idil is right.

The thread is about Honour Killings being permissible or not, not the reasons why it happens or where it happens.

[horaAppagob]

فقال ناس لسعد بن عبادة يا أبا ثابت قد نزلت الحدود لو أنك وجدت مع امرأتك رجلا كيف كنت صانعا قال كنت ضاربهما بالسيف حتى يسكتا أفأنا أذهب فأجمع أربعة شهداء فإلى ذلك قد قضى الحاجة فانطلقوا فاجتمعوا عند رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم فقالوا يا رسول الله ألم تر إلى أبي ثابت قال كذا وكذا فقال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم كفى بالسيف شاهدا
ثم قال لا لا أخاف أن يتتابع فيها السكران والغيران
The people said to Sa'd ibn Ubadah: Abu Thabit, the prescribed punishments have been revealed: if you find a man with your wife, what will you do? He said: I shall strike them with a sword so much that they become silent (i.e. die). Should I go and gather four witnesses? Until that (time) the need would be fulfilled.
So they went away and gathered with the Apostle of Allah (peace be upon him) and said: Apostle of Allah! did you not see Abu Thabit. He said so-and-so. The Apostle of Allah (peace be upon him) said: The sword is a sufficient witness. He then said: No, no, a furious and a jealous man may follow this course. [Sunan Abi Daud]

A truly honorable man who possesses gheerah, if he sees his wife with another man will kill them both, he will not even bother to gather witnesses, etc. And the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم approved of this. This is the type of "honor killing" which is Islamic.

Isnt the above hadeeth of Abu Dawood classified da'eef according to Sh. Albani?

Lets take this hadith from Muslim Shareef

16 - (1498) حَدَّثَنَا أَبُو بَكْرِ بْنُ أَبِي شَيْبَةَ، حَدَّثَنَا خَالِدُ بْنُ مَخْلَدٍ، عَنْ سُلَيْمَانَ بْنِ بِلَالٍ، حَدَّثَنِي سُهَيْلٌ، عَنْ أَبِيهِ، عَنْ أَبِي هُرَيْرَةَ، قَالَ: قَالَ سَعْدُ بْنُ عُبَادَةَ: يَا رَسُولَ اللهِ، لَوْ وَجَدْتُ مَعَ أَهْلِي رَجُلًا لَمْ أَمَسَّهُ حَتَّى آتِيَ بِأَرْبَعَةِ شُهَدَاءَ؟ قَالَ رَسُولُ اللهِ صَلَّى اللهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ: «نَعَمْ» ، قَالَ: كَلَّا وَالَّذِي بَعَثَكَ بِالْحَقِّ، إِنْ كُنْتُ لَأُعَاجِلُهُ بِالسَّيْفِ قَبْلَ ذَلِكَ، قَالَ رَسُولُ اللهِ صَلَّى اللهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ: «اسْمَعُوا إِلَى مَا يَقُولُ سَيِّدُكُمْ، إِنَّهُ لَغَيُورٌ، وَأَنَا أَغْيَرُ مِنْهُ، وَاللهُ أَغْيَرُ مِنِّي»
[صحيح مسلم 2/ 1135]
Would you kindly translate this one..

[Sxedlawb]

Bismillah
Abuhjira, you provided reference for him. This abdul qader character should be left alone alone and his statment should be ignored as well.

My wife was brought up in the west and is more modest then average muslimah in my home countries. I know more of my relegion here then I would have ever known in my parents country of origin. In a strange way it is a blessing to be in the west and they posses some good qualities lacking in the developing countries (not talking of economic benefit). Arab and indo pak is obsessed with scantly clad movie, music culture. As a practicing muslim we only face difficulties mainly from the ignorant media culture. In indo pak, even muslim lumps all of us together with, characterised by intelectually and relgiously ignorant Abdul Qadeer. The problems faced by us has more to do with us then perception. We due to our unsophisticated, ill thought out appraoch by importing relegious grasp from village life has caused this.
Allahualam

Isnt the above hadeeth of Abu Dawood classified da'eef according to Sh. Albani?

Lets take this hadith from Muslim Shareef

16 - (1498) حَدَّثَنَا أَبُو بَكْرِ بْنُ أَبِي شَيْبَةَ، حَدَّثَنَا خَالِدُ بْنُ مَخْلَدٍ، عَنْ سُلَيْمَانَ بْنِ بِلَالٍ، حَدَّثَنِي سُهَيْلٌ، عَنْ أَبِيهِ، عَنْ أَبِي هُرَيْرَةَ، قَالَ: قَالَ سَعْدُ بْنُ عُبَادَةَ: يَا رَسُولَ اللهِ، لَوْ وَجَدْتُ مَعَ أَهْلِي رَجُلًا لَمْ أَمَسَّهُ حَتَّى آتِيَ بِأَرْبَعَةِ شُهَدَاءَ؟ قَالَ رَسُولُ اللهِ صَلَّى اللهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ: «نَعَمْ» ، قَالَ: كَلَّا وَالَّذِي بَعَثَكَ بِالْحَقِّ، إِنْ كُنْتُ لَأُعَاجِلُهُ بِالسَّيْفِ قَبْلَ ذَلِكَ، قَالَ رَسُولُ اللهِ صَلَّى اللهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ: «اسْمَعُوا إِلَى مَا يَقُولُ سَيِّدُكُمْ، إِنَّهُ لَغَيُورٌ، وَأَنَا أَغْيَرُ مِنْهُ، وَاللهُ أَغْيَرُ مِنِّي»
[صحيح مسلم 2/ 1135]
Would you kindly translate this one..

[dselectronics]

totally out of topic from my post. Won't answer

Yeah leave the WEST alone, it's everybody's darling.

Make a new thread cursing the west please. Don't use these threads for insulting the west.

For the record nobody thinks of "West" as the darling and nobody appreciated Kuf'r over Islam and you are making accusations on the Eemaan of your Muslim brothers and sisters.

1. Mukhtara Mai was rapped in Pakistan
2. Women are whistled at and chased in Karachi
3. Niqabi women are chased and their clothes tore up in Cairo
4. Maids are gang-raped in Saudia
5. Niqab was ripped from the face in Egypt by an Islamic Scholar

Not saying that these events don't happen in the West but you don't want to answer because you can't answer!

[trubreTab]

Muslim countries have Islamic law?

They are more Islamic because they have a majority of Muslims living in it?

Pakistan is Darul Harb or Darul Islam?

Please explain

[trubreTab]

Not saying that these events don't happen in the West but you don't want to answer because you can't answer!

What's the question again?