[GEAntonio]

I tested the Seal Skinz socks by wearning them and dipping them under water. The pair is 18 months old. One of the socks failed the water-proof test. A little bit of water sipped in through the material to my skin. That renders the socks invalid for wudu making purposes.

If you have Seal Skinz socks you should also test them for water-proofability from time to time.

Comments appreciated.

[Vodonaeva]

I tested the Seal Skinz socks by wearning them and dipping them under water. The pair is 18 months old. One of the socks failed the water-proof test. A little bit of water sipped in through the material to my skin. That renders the socks invalid for wudu making purposes.

If you have Seal Skinz socks you should also test them for water-proofability from time to time.

Comments appreciated.

Are you sure that the socks have to be water-proof to the point of resisting from water soaking into them while they are digged in water?

Because I vaguely remember having read that the being water-proof would being referred to while making masah, or is it wrong what I remember?..

[worldofwarcraft]

Also, from a fiqhi perspective, does one need to test it over a year again and can't we just rely on the socks how they were in the original state?

Also remember that according to Hanafi school you can make masah on socks with holes (not too big). So water will eventually slip through.

[GEAntonio]

Salam brothers,

Interesting points. If any one knows the answer then please post.

[papadopul]

Assalamu aliakum,

I remember Mufti Husain saying once that the material needs to be water proof and not the socks itself (as brother Ansari mentioned). Mufti Husain also said that the material has to be waterproof to the extent that if water is poured from a bottle onto the material it will not leak - not if it is dipped in water (too much pressure) nor while making masah (too little pressure).

[greekbeast]

Are you sure that the socks have to be water-proof to the point of resisting from water soaking into them while they are digged in water?

Because I vaguely remember having read that the being water-proof would being referred to while making masah

yes this is what Mufti Abdur Rahman Mangera mentioned in his QnA session last Friday eveing. Many/all leather socks are not totally water proof as if filled they also leak water from the seems as stated by Mufti sab also.

[GEAntonio]

Thank you for the replies. Very helpful.

[LarryRda]

so shouldnt the title of this thread be updated?

I also recall reading that the socks must be waterproof to the extent that when water is "poured" on them .. not when they are immersed in water.

[saruxanset]

Brothers, I don't understand where this dipping and pouring from a cup evidence comes from. Are these just being made up as we go along? very strange. Firstly, the condition of the Jawrab being waterproof is a very weak position, even in the Hanafi school. From Imam Abu Yusuf and Imam Muhammad Hassan Al Shaibani , only two conditions are specified. 1. Thakheen and 2. They don't reveal the skin of the foot ( See Al Hidayah, Quduri etc ).
Thakheen means that it is not held around the foot by external support e.g laces and it doesn't collapse when you walk, so that it reveals the foot. The reason this is a condition is because only very thick cloth could stand on its own and not collapse. But since the 1960's with the discovery of Nylon, thickness is not relevant for the sock to stay firmly on the foot when you walk ( See Ibn Qudama's Al Mughni for a detailed meaning of Thakeen, and the aim of the Fuqaha for mentioning this condition).

Allah SWT knows best.

Assalamu aliakum,

I remember Mufti Husain saying once that the material needs to be water proof and not the socks itself (as brother Ansari mentioned). Mufti Husain also said that the material has to be waterproof to the extent that if water is poured from a bottle onto the material it will not leak - not if it is dipped in water (too much pressure) nor while making masah (too little pressure).

[clomoll]

Are there rubber socks? Those things won't allow water through at all

[InsManKV]

Are there rubber socks? Those things won't allow water through at all

they wont allow perspiration or air circulation either. you dont want that bro.

[saruxanset]

You may need Iron socks. They probably have to be bulletproof also.

[Virosponna]

Brothers, I don't understand where this dipping and pouring from a cup evidence comes from. Are these just being made up as we go along? very strange. Firstly, the condition of the Jawrab being waterproof is a very weak position, even in the Hanafi school. From Imam Abu Yusuf and Imam Muhammad Hassan Al Shaibani , only two conditions are specified. 1. Thakheen and 2. They don't reveal the skin of the foot ( See Al Hidayah, Quduri etc ).
Thakheen means that it is not held around the foot by external support e.g laces and it doesn't collapse when you walk, so that it reveals the foot. The reason this is a condition is because only very thick cloth could stand on its own and not collapse. But since the 1960's with the discovery of Nylon, thickness is not relevant for the sock to stay firmly on the foot when you walk ( See Ibn Qudama's Al Mughni for a detailed meaning of Thakeen, and the aim of the Fuqaha for mentioning this condition).

Allah SWT knows best.

The answer to most of your questions can be found in Mufti Taqis answer here:
http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/arch...p/t-17087.html

[saruxanset]

Jazak Allah,

I read Mufti Taqi Usmani's article about 10 years ago. It is taken from one of his books called ' Fiqhi Maqalaat '. Masha Allah it is very informative and well structured. However, it is only the position of the Hanafi school and when you read the evidences and disagreements from the other schools and opinions you realise that there is no Ijma' across the board. Only specific statements that agree with the Hanafi position are included. The Ijma' that the Sheikh has mentioned refers only among the Ahnaaf on certain things. Even then there is a massive disagreement within the Ahnaaf themselves on other points. E.g. The ability to walk a distance in them. Some said one Farsakh ( 3 miles ) others said one day and night, some said the condition of 3 miles is baseless and so on. Then there is the issue of the Jawrab being waterproof; this is disputed among the Ahnaaf. Ibn Abideen mentions that this condition was stipulated by Imam Shirbilaani only and others said it was not necessary etc etc.

So my point is that there should not be such harshness towards people who do Masah on ordinary socks, because they have evidence; strong evidence. And to not pray Salaah behind them is going too far.

This is an Ijtihadi issue and not based on divine injuntion. So leniency is best.

Allah knows best.

[saruxanset]

Below is a paragraph from Mufti Taqi Usmani's article :

" And Allamah ibn Nujaim (RA.) writes: "And it is not permissible to make masah over thin socks made from yarn or hair. There are no differences of opinion on that. However, if the socks are thick, to the extent that one can walk one Farsakh (three miles) or more, then the jurists have differences of opinion." (Al-Bahr-ur-Ra'iq, first volume, p.192). From the above it is clear that to perform masah on the following types of thin socks is not held permissible by any of the Imaams of the madhaahib (Schools of Thought) "

To be fair I don't think Imam Ibn Nujaim's statement alone is enough to conclude Ijmaa'. Especially when Imam Zabidi in the Sharah of Quduri states it not to be a condition, and he's Hanafi. And that's just one scholar.

Plus there is no mention by Imam Ibn Nujaim on the Jawrab being waterproof !

So anyway, make of it what you will.

Allah knows best.

[Virosponna]

I understand your point. Maybe some of the learned hanafis can give you an answer.

[saruxanset]

Please don't get me wrong. the Hanafi position in this issue is very strong and not to be sniffed at. It has stood the test of time, so it's not wishy washy. Someone has to be on the level of Ijtihad to even raise an objection. That's why if someone says to me that these conditions that the Hanafi's raise are baseless then I will tell him he doesn't know what planet he's on. That's because they are strong. My point was only to mention that those who differ also have strong arguments. And I think that's where we develop a mutual respect for each others opinions.

[ZenDers]

Hello, I was notified of this thread by Google Alerts and read with interest the comments and views of our "failed socks". Can I be clear and say from the start I work for SealSkinz and am increasingly aware of the use of our socks by the Muslim community.

Our socks are not designed to be worn everyday for 18 months! If they are then obviously they will show signs of wear and tear! Ironing or hot washing the socks will affect the membrane within the socks that give them the breathable and waterproof properties and lead to failure.

We often get asked:
Are they fully waterproof - yes, every single sock is tested
Do they contain animal or Seal Skin - No! its all man made fibre and merino wool.

If anyone has technical questions they want answering I'm happy to inform, or my South African Muslim distributor would be willing to converse too.

James

[SergeyLisin]

Thanks for that James, Some good points to take note