Authoritarianism and Islam - Page 2 - DiscussWorldIssues - Socio-Economic Religion and Political Uncensored Debate

**enfoires** · 07-09-2011, 10:38 AM

Thanks for the replies, and sorry for the delay in replying back...

suleimanibnsalim: I guess the point I am really trying to make is that those protests symbolise, to me, progress. They symbolise enlightenment replacing jahiliya. I mean, these were movements that stuck two fingers up at the systems of oppression that drew strength from religious backwardness which sternly demanded that people keep their head down at all times, unquestionably 'obey' and never ever think for themselves.

The protestors were young, tech savvy and fought for their rights and freedoms through twitter and social networking media. Clearly they were inspired by what they saw in the West. The Imams and everyone of later generations are still by and large in the clutches of this jahiliya imo and to them, such acts of civil disobedience is just incomprehensible.

Abd ar Rahman: You are right, it is not really possible to precisely define Democracy. All I'll say is that it doesn't neccessarly mean 'balloting' - ie. one person one vote. To me it's about consensus and the idea that people should have a say in matters that affect them. Further, I don't see democracy as a "man made" concept at all - it is universal value that we all hold dear but somehow religion has managed to condition people to think otherwise (militantly so). We human beings need personal autonomy and flourish when we have it; we become mindless automatons incapable of progress when we don't.

ibn Mikael - great posts. I agree that governments should never enforce Islamic values - but disagree that people should. People enforcing their values? How would that work in practice?

As regards your second post - good idea, but you're presupposing the Sharia is infallible. We must remember that the Shariah is 'man made' - it consists of fiqh which is merely the opinion of classical jurists in expansionist Abassid Period - it isn't really divine.

It happens all the time. Men refuse to marry women who look and behave a certain way, so the women change in order to meet their demands; vice versa. Parents and neighbors scold children for behaving improperly. Workers chastise other workers for making lewd comments or for glorifying sin. Friends advise friends. Shaykhs and imams give khutbas about negative things within the society. Responsible media figures confront societal problems. Groups of people get together to work in their communities to solve problems. They're are all sorts of social "laws" that are enforced without the need for a police force. I don't mean that citizens should become vigilantes if that's what you were thinking.

**gogona** · 07-09-2011, 11:30 AM

Once again, people mistake "democracy" and "republic". Ibn Mikael is describing a Republic with an Islamic Charter.

http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-the-...-democracy.htm

"By definition, a republic is a political unit governed by a charter, while a democracy is a government whose prevailing force is always that of the majority. Perhaps one of the difficulties in defining these two words — democracy and republic — stems from the fact that many people consider them to be synonyms, which they aren’t. They are no more alike than an apple and a banana, and yet they are often used interchangeably.

The difference between a republic and a democracy lies in the ultimate source of official power. In the case of a republic, it lies with a charter; in a democracy, power lies with the rule of the majority. Yet they are often lumped together. "

As far as democracy goes, I remember listening to a history podcast how Thomas Jefferson himself disdained the notion of creating a democracy (defined in the classical sense) in the United States, believing it would lead to mob rule. So he wanted a Republic, with a written Charter, with officials and rulers chosen by vote.

I do believe that Muslims can have proper Sunni Islamic republics with elected government if they're properly set up. The Charter must be carefully made, institutions and separations of powers set up, etc.

Finally, whoever said that the voting franchise has to be universal? The USA did not allow blacks and women to vote for a very long time. If you don't want the Shia and the Qadyanis to vote... well there are historical precedents for that...

**Penisvergroesserung** · 07-09-2011, 12:54 PM

I have to disagree with this notion, and it's something that is often trotted out as a reason that Islam and democracy cannot coexist. I've heard so many people say that Muslim cannot have a democratic system of government because people might vote to approve something which is un-Islamic. However, the solution to this is incredibly obvious: make a Constitution that says all newly proposed laws and regulations must abide by the shariah, and have a court system that could strike down laws and regulations that they deem un-Islamic. I just find this whole "oh but they could vote on something and make that which Allah declared haram halal" argument to be absurd. Well...so could any ruler! The difference is that if that ruler does such a thing, within a democratic framework, the people could simply elect him out of office or the courts could simply strike down his laws. In an autocratic system, the leader could do all of these things, and nothing could stop him other than a revolt, which of course is a horrible thing to occur within a country because it leads to economic stagnation and the purging of counter-revolutionaries--or if the revolt fails, simply quite a lot of dead people.

1) Brother, Islam consists of its OWN RULING SYSTEM.
do you believe this?

2) Or do you believe that: 'Islam does NOT have its own ruling system'?
In which case Muslims can incorporate various systems which serve whichever purposes.

You SEEM to say in your response that Islam does NOT have its own ruling system and therefore Islam and democracy should "coexist", on the necks and backs of the Muslim people no less.

I for one consider such a proposition for Muslim people- coexist between Islam and democracy- to be a BETRAYAL of who they are, what they represent, and who they can become.

I offer you the benefit of the doubt that your position is based on confusion of some of the ideas- an intended objective of those who champion 'democracy- because I have read your comments here for some time now and you seem like a trustworthy brother.

Briefly, here is what I mean by the Islamic ruling system:

A)the absolute Sovereignty belongs to Allah

B)the authority to rule and implement is for the Muslim Ummah

C) Process of Legislation: Ijtihad. The utmost, sincere, earnest, qualified exertion through the examination of the evidences (adillah) to extract a ruling (hukm) = ijtihad

(A = the source of legislation absolutely emanates from Allah, which means the Wahy. It is NOT a transient, inexact notion (which is sometimes presented in mottos), rather its a definitive issue (of belief). The legislation from the Divine is the Hukm Sharii: the address of the Legislator regarding the actions of Man. So A = Hukm Sharii. )

_____________

Here is how democracy is practiced IN REALITY (as opposed to some fanciful idea of what we can concoct,as several Muslim countries have attempted to do over the past 60 years):

A) Sovereignty resides with "the people".

B) Authority to rule resides with "the people".

C) The process of legislation: majority vote according to constitutional rules.

A = a certain people declare themselves the sole power of a region, and formulate a story about themselves in their "preambles". The Egyptian people claimed to have toiled in Egypt since the dawn of civilization. The Pakistani constitution recognizes Jinnah as the 'founder' of the state and "faithful to the declaration made by the founder..." declares Pakistan a democratic state, thus presenting the sovereignty of the state in the name of Jinnah.

B = The rule and power of the state resides with "the people", how ever they choose to define the people. In the case of Egypt, its "Egyptian people" as defined by the nation who's borders are defined UN treaties, as opposed to an "Egyptian people" who existed 500 years ago and who's empire stretched into neighboring countries of Jordan, Sudan, Libya, Arabia, etc., or some other definition of "people".

C = As sovereigns, these people devise constitutions which define their processes of legislation which are majority rule, but with variations. Ijtihad is not the process of legislation of a democracy as legislation emanates from the state's constitutionally recognized "sovereign".

___________________

Yes, a people can CHOOSE to vote with various restrictions- ie. according to Shariah-, but this connotes the sovereign resides with the people.

This is quite different from the Islamic ruling system.
When the issue arose of war against the apostate tribes during the khilafat of Abu Bakr (rah), many sahaba (rahm) encouraged and advised him to relent and negotiate with the tribes. Abu Bakr (rah) rejected this because he understood the Adillah- the guidance from the Revelation in clarity. Refusal to pay zakah is abandoning an obligatory act of ibaadat which places one outside of Islam, which no longer offers protection and security.

It could be understood that many of these tribes refused zakat as political power plays to gain more influence in Madinah. For Shia, they claim some tribes refused to pay because they believed Ali (rah) deserved to be khalifah. In both cases, they played political games with the Deen of Islam against the best generation, the most knowledgeable generation. It could be argued that the majority of so called Muslims at that time rebelled against Abu Bakr (rah). In a republic, it would have shifted the power to dissolve the parliement and have reelections. Except, Abu Bakr (rah) adoption, the hukm which he adopted regarding abandoning zakah, was that its riddah.

According to a democracy, there would have been grounds for reelection as the majority did not accept Abu Bakr (as they were driven by Shaytan- another intangible factor which cannot be coded into a democacy or republican constitution).

Its a matter of perception: Islam guides, or Islam is guided. Which is it?

For the Prophet (saaw) and the khulafa rashiduun, Islam guided them as a Way of Life which provided ideological direction.

Today, the Muslim world is increasingly under the influence of governments and "religious figures" who preseent Islam and in need of reform, or which is man made, etc. and needs to coexist or be altered to fit some modern idea.

**enfoires** · 07-09-2011, 01:26 PM

[QUOTE=Usama2;632942]

1) Brother, Islam consists of its OWN RULING SYSTEM.
do you believe this?

By this do you mean that Islam has certain legal rulings which Muslims and their leaders are obligated to implement or that Islam advocates a specific governance system such as an absolute monarchy or a constitutional republic? Yes, I believe that there are certain legal rulings which Muslims are obligated to implement. I also believe that rulers have the ability to temporarily suspend certain hudood punishments if enforcing them would be a grave hardship on the community--something which has always been recognized as Islamically permissible (see Caliph Umar suspending the hudood of taking the hand of a thief when there was severe drought).

No, I don't believe that an absolute monarchy is inherently more Islamic than a constitutional republic that has a legislative branch that enforces the shariah.

2) Or do you believe that: 'Islam does NOT have its own ruling system'?
In which case Muslims can incorporate various systems which serve whichever purposes.

Muslims have incorporated various ruling systems throughout history and if you believe otherwise, you're living in a fairly tale land. Sultanates were different from caliphates; caliphates themselves often varied--from an absolute monarch to a constitutional monarch with an active parliament. And nowadays you have countries like Iran and Aceh province in Indonesia, both of which enforce the shariah while operating within the framework of a constitutional republic. From my own knowledge, the only consistent factor in all of them was that they had qadis oversee the judicial system.

And Allah

knows best.

**Penisvergroesserung** · 07-09-2011, 01:52 PM

The Sovereignty resides solely with Allah.

Translation of the Holy Quran;

6:57: "...[AL hukmu] The command rests with none but Allah. He declares the truth, and He is the best of judges."

6:62 "Then are men returned unto Allah, their protector, the (only) reality: Is not His the command [al hukmu]? and He is the swiftest in taking account.

12:40 "If not Him, ye worship nothing but names which ye have named,- ye and your fathers,- for which Allah hath sent down no authority: [al hukmu] the command is for none but Allah. He hath commanded that ye worship none but Him: that is the right religion, but most men understand not..."

5:48-50:
"And unto thee have We revealed the Scripture with the Truth, confirming whatever Scripture was before it, and a watcher over it. So [fahkum]rule/judge between them by that which Allah hath revealed, and follow not their desires away from the truth which hath come unto thee. For each We have appointed a [shir3aatan] Divine Law and a traced-out way. Had Allah willed He could have made you one community. But that He may try you by that which He hath given you (He hath made you as ye are). So vie one with another in good works. Unto Allah ye will all return, and He will then inform you of that wherein ye differ. (48)
So [fahkum] rule/judge between them by that which Allah hath revealed, and follow not their desires, but beware of them lest they seduce thee from some part of that which Allah hath revealed unto thee. And if they turn away, then know that Allah's Will is to smite them for some sin of theirs. Lo! many of mankind are evil-livers. (49)

[afhukmi] Is it a judgment of the time of [jahiliyiah](pagan) ignorance that they are seeking? Who is better than Allah for judgment to a people who have certainty (in their belief)? (50) "

As one can follow in these ayaat, the word "hukmu" and its derivative plays a key rule regarding sovereignty, legal authority to rule and judgement, and the source of ruling.
'Hukmu' is sovereignty to determine the commands.

'Hukm' is both judge and rule, as in that time, the time of the Prophet (saaw) in particular, the ruler and judge were embodied in one office as well as separated as two different offices ( various sahabi were judges at the same time as the Prophet (saw) was both ruler and judge).

Allah (SWT) addresses this by giving examples of the previous peoples, ahlil kitab, and how they manipulated their revelations to suit their circumstances. Like us today, Bani Israel were dominated by the Roman pagan empire and they altered their ways to correspond, or 'coexist'. Its no surprise then, that 5:50 raises the exact issue of which Way should believers follow: the Way which Allah (SWT) has revealed, or the way of Jahiliyah, which can be interpretted as applying to democracy as well. Democracy being a specific system adopted by the pagan Greeks and revived by the Western powers millenia later as part of their Enlightenment from Judeo Christian tyranny.

Thus, why do we seek the judgement of jahili systems when the command of Allah is clear?

Note Sofian's claim:

As regards your second post - good idea, but you're presupposing the Sharia is infallible. We must remember that the Shariah is 'man made' - it consists of fiqh which is merely the opinion of classical jurists in expansionist Abassid Period - it isn't really divine .

Either this is an ignorant statement which is simply echoing propaganda, or its a diabolical statement meant to mislead Muslims, for which is condemnation and curses. In either case, it arrogantly and imperiously seeks to undermine the thoughts and sentiments of the Muslim Ummah towards Shariah.

Shariah is commonly understood to mean the divine guidance, commands and prohibitions of Allah.
The Hukm Sharii is the specific term used by the fuqaha to distinguish between the fiqh and the actual textual evidences.
Fiqh is the body of interpretations of Hukm Sharii.

Sofian's statement sought to mix Hukm Sharii with fiqh to render them all "manmade".

When the common people say "Shariah" in terms of ruling and governance, they MEAN "HUKM SHARII".

Anyone who says Hukm Sharii is NOT divine upon knowing what it is, has committed kufr.

It is the motivation of enemies of Islam to attack Shariah, as is commonly understood pertaining to ruling.

and Allah knows Best.

**Penisvergroesserung** · 07-09-2011, 02:24 PM

[QUOTE=ibn Mikael;632945]

1) Brother, Islam consists of its OWN RULING SYSTEM.
do you believe this?

By this do you mean that Islam has certain legal rulings which Muslims and their leaders are obligated to implement or that Islam advocates a specific governance system such as an absolute monarchy or a constitutional republic? Yes, I believe that there are certain legal rulings which Muslims are obligated to implement. I also believe that rulers have the ability to temporarily suspend certain hudood punishments if enforcing them would be a grave hardship on the community--something which has always been recognized as Islamically permissible (see Caliph Umar suspending the hudood of taking the hand of a thief when there was severe drought).

No, I don't believe that an absolute monarchy is inherently more Islamic than a constitutional republic that has a legislative branch that enforces the shariah.

2) Or do you believe that: 'Islam does NOT have its own ruling system'?
In which case Muslims can incorporate various systems which serve whichever purposes.

Muslims have incorporated various ruling systems throughout history and if you believe otherwise, you're living in a fairly tale land. Sultanates were different from caliphates; caliphates themselves often varied--from an absolute monarch to a constitutional monarch with an active parliament. And nowadays you have countries like Iran and Aceh province in Indonesia, both of which enforce the shariah while operating within the framework of a constitutional republic. From my own knowledge, the only consistent factor in all of them was that they had qadis oversee the judicial system.

And Allah knows best.

By ruling system, I mean a 'system' - not merely some rulings.
This is what I was referring to "Islam guides" vs. "Islam is guided".

I have neither claimed an absolute monarchy nor a constitutional republic are representative of the Islamic ruling system. Why have you limited yourself to these systems?

Yes, various dynasties did different things when it came to ruling. But they are not the source of guidance in Islam. Nor did An Nabi (saw) say we should follow them as he (saaw) said we should follow the khulafaa Rashiduun. Again, peacemeal implementation of Shariah is NOT the example, its the experimentation of various peoples.

Why MUST the source of legislation of a state be "the people"? Tell me please, Ibn Michael?
Why must a people vote on legislation if Allah (SWT) has already legislated it?

If representation is your concern, the Islamic system has that, for women, for nonMuslims as well, in the majlis ash shura.

If balance of power is your concern, that was practiced and exemplified by the Prophet (saw) and the khulafa rashiduun, as executive and judiciary branches which included bringing caliph Umar (ra) to trial.

If accountability is your concern, there is arguably no state that has been more conscientious about accountability than the Islamic state of the Prophet (saaw) followed by the khulafaa rashiduun. And following their models would be the best option.

What is the importance of the "majority" of people?

Here are some ayaat which address the people of the earth:

Translation of Holy Quran
"6:116 Wert thou to follow the (majority)common run of those on earth, they will lead thee away from the way of Allah. They follow nothing but conjecture: they do nothing but guess."

7:179 "Already have We urged unto hell many of the jinn and humankind, having hearts wherewith they understand not, and having eyes wherewith they see not, and having ears wherewith they hear not. These are as the cattle - nay, but they are worse! These are the neglectful. (179)

25:43-44:
" Hast thou seen him who chooseth for his god his own lust? Wouldst thou then be guardian over him? (43) Or deemest thou that most of them hear or understand? They are but as the cattle - nay, but they are farther astray "

And that's not to mention Allah describing the pure nature of Man being rebellious, weak, ungrateful.

And certainly Allah knows best.

**Tzqowwyt** · 07-09-2011, 03:56 PM

There is no such concept as "Republic" in Islaam. Neither is there any such concept as "Constitution".

The constitution of an Islamic state is the Quraan and Sunnah. Period

In Islaam, a ruler is for life.

The idea of "Republic" was invented by Plato, a mushrik Greek philosopher. Turn away from all these Western, Greek, and foreign ideas and stick to Quraan and Sunnah. That is our salvation.

**Tzqowwyt** · 07-09-2011, 03:58 PM

There is no such concept as "Republic" in Islaam. Neither is there any such concept as "Constitution".

The constitution of an Islamic state is the Quraan and Sunnah. Period

In Islaam, a ruler is for life.

The idea of "Republic" was invented by Plato, a mushrik Greek philosopher. Turn away from all these Western, Greek, and foreign ideas and stick to Quraan and Sunnah. That is our salvation.

And May Allaah

continue to ruin the "Arab spring", and continue to disgrace the revolutionaries and protestors. Ameen.

**Tzqowwyt** · 07-10-2011, 12:59 AM

I forgot you have mastered the concept of Siyas in Islam!! what a joke!

May the pervert and misogonist relegious fascist perish to uplift the ummah away from shrik of worhsipping of Mr. Saudia and may Allah give us knowledge, wishdom and intelegence away from
psudo khawarij of trend that only causes the rise of murtad & mutazilah trend
Ameen

Let us wait and see whose Du'a Allaah answers

**Ekzamenov** · 07-10-2011, 04:06 AM

Bismillah
Abdul Qadeer you should be thankful that there is no shariah law fully being implemented. The likes of you would have the first candidate for flogging!
By the way marry your daughter or your sister to one of the salafist pervert who marry and devorce. Perhaps you are the type to do the same because you can quote hadith!!
Allahualam

he comes across as a coprocreep that would bash his daughter/sister when she returns.

was salaam

**enfoires** · 07-10-2011, 03:11 PM

Just because we may disagree on matters doesn't mean we should resort to name-calling and insults. If you cannot engage is civil debate on issues, then don't bother writing anything at all.

**Penisvergroesserung** · 07-11-2011, 11:51 AM

Ibn Mikael,

I agree with your most recent post: we must maintain respectable manners and conduct towards each other in order to arrive at understanding.

This attacking and counterattacking is futile and destructive.
We have to move forward, insha Allah.

That said, insha Allah, please if you will address these questions:

Why MUST the source of legislation of a state be "the people"?
Why must a people vote on legislation if Allah (SWT) has already legislated it?
What is the importance of the majority of the people?

**enfoires** · 07-11-2011, 12:24 PM

Ibn Mikael,

I agree with your most recent post: we must maintain respectable manners and conduct towards each other in order to arrive at understanding.

This attacking and counterattacking is futile and destructive.
We have to move forward, insha Allah.

That said, insha Allah, please if you will address these questions:

1. Who are you suggesting should legislate on new issues that arise within a country? A benevolent dictatorship? What exactly is your alternative other than the people? Do you believe Allah

is going to give us a new prophet every hundred years or so who will definitively address new issues? Of course not, and in that absence, people will differ regarding issues. As such, the consensus of the majority matters.

2. As I stated previously, a state could simply adopt a constitution that says no law shall be passed which violates Islamic law (with a clear definition of what is Islamic law). Therefore, if a people try to pass a piece of legislation that contravenes the shariah, the courts could simply strike it down. New issues arise and you can't simply ignore them. Saying "follow the shariah" isn't a real answer, because it assumes that the shariah has specifically addressed the issue before.

3. The majority of the people matters, because if the majority of the people don't like what the government is doing, they'll simply kick out or kill the leaders. You could try ignoring the majority if you're leading, but you aren't gonna be lasting too long--I can guarantee that

.

**Penisvergroesserung** · 07-12-2011, 06:56 PM

Before I reply, are we in agreement that the ruling system of the Prophet (saw) and the khulafa rashidoon is the proper and intellectually superior model for ruling?

1. Who are you suggesting should legislate on new issues that arise within a country? A benevolent dictatorship? What exactly is your alternative other than the people? Do you believe Allah is going to give us a new prophet every hundred years or so who will definitively address new issues? Of course not, and in that absence, people will differ regarding issues. As such, the consensus of the majority matters. :.

Legislation is for the sovereign, Al Haakim Allah (SWT) alone.
Here is a link to a Usulul Fiqh dars regarding Allah (SWT) as al Hakim, the source of legislation, and how the Aql and the Naql (revelation) come together:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XBjPx4mnnSc

According to the Islamic ruling system, the ruler titled caliph, sultan, amir, or whichever, receives Bayah, allegiance, from the Muslim people to rule by and implement and lead by the Hukm Sharii.
The ruler is responsible for adopting rulings on various issues. Abu Bakr (rh) adopted several rulings, such as on divorce, which were practiced by the sahaba and Muslim people. But the ruler is wise to avoid adopting on all issues to allow for jurisprudential interpretation ijtihad.
When an issue arises which is new, the ruler is responsible for dealing with it by adopting on the issue, or not adopting on it, depending. The process of doing this is according to Ijithad.
He may choose to have a Fiqh committee address it, or have various scholars do so, or choose to do so himself if he is qualified. But it is NOT open to majority vote in the sense that people who have no knowledge of deen, who are enemies of Islam, can decide on the adoption.

2. As I stated previously, a state could simply adopt a constitution that says no law shall be passed which violates Islamic law (with a clear definition of what is Islamic law). Therefore, if a people try to pass a piece of legislation that contravenes the shariah, the courts could simply strike it down. New issues arise and you can't simply ignore them. Saying "follow the shariah" isn't a real answer, because it assumes that the shariah has specifically addressed the issue before.

Do PEOPLE know what is right and wrong INTRINSIC TO THEMSELVES?
Do you know what is right and wrong simply by observing a matter?

People have NO INTRINSIC POWER TO ORIGINATE RIGHT AND WRONG.
And yet you wish to grant them power to vote on what is right and wrong. Based on what? Their feelings? Their dreams?

Thus, Allah (SWT) said

Translation of Quran 3:3
Aforetime, for a guidance to mankind; and hath revealed the Criterion (of right and wrong). Lo! those who disbelieve the revelations of Allah, theirs will be a heavy doom. Allah is Mighty, Able to Requite (the wrong).

:
3. The majority of the people matters, because if the majority of the people don't like what the government is doing, they'll simply kick out or kill the leaders. You could try ignoring the majority if you're leading, but you aren't gonna be lasting too long--I can guarantee that .

So the whims of the majority should be obeyed?
If you are speaking of the dynamic between a ruler and the ruled, then the matter of the people's consent is important in some ways, either as legitimatization of the authority of the government, as in a pledge of allegiance. In the Islamic ruling system, the Bayah is the transfer of POWER and authority of the People to the ruler. Whether this happens via a direct general election, or a selection committee, this is the issue of ruling according to Shariah.

But majority rule that votes on each and every law breeds chaos and conflict. This was the original idea of democracy for a select few GREEK men who were empowered to decide day to day laws based on their individual interests. It became indirect when these men chose 'representatives' who decided for them.

Today, select elite men continue to decide laws in democracies by getting representatives elected by fooling the masses of people to support them. Presidents of the USA are largely deemed as employees who do the bidding of the elite and power who got them elected. The idea of Right, Good, Justice are mere slogans to win majority or popular support.

Democracy is a venue for the authoritarianism of a few elite, powerful, and very often wicked men, to determine the affairs of the majority.

And Allah knows best.

**Penisvergroesserung** · 07-14-2011, 05:32 PM

Ibn Mikael, or any brother,

I welcome your replies.

**20170425yuanyuan** · 03-02-2018, 10:30 AM

**zzzza** · 06-06-2018, 09:17 AM

**zzzza** · 06-06-2018, 09:17 AM

**20170425yuanyuan** · 06-07-2018, 04:40 AM

07-09-2011, 10:38 AM	#21
enfoires Join Date Nov 2005 Posts 527 Senior Member	Thanks for the replies, and sorry for the delay in replying back... suleimanibnsalim: I guess the point I am really trying to make is that those protests symbolise, to me, progress. They symbolise enlightenment replacing jahiliya. I mean, these were movements that stuck two fingers up at the systems of oppression that drew strength from religious backwardness which sternly demanded that people keep their head down at all times, unquestionably 'obey' and never ever think for themselves. The protestors were young, tech savvy and fought for their rights and freedoms through twitter and social networking media. Clearly they were inspired by what they saw in the West. The Imams and everyone of later generations are still by and large in the clutches of this jahiliya imo and to them, such acts of civil disobedience is just incomprehensible. Abd ar Rahman: You are right, it is not really possible to precisely define Democracy. All I'll say is that it doesn't neccessarly mean 'balloting' - ie. one person one vote. To me it's about consensus and the idea that people should have a say in matters that affect them. Further, I don't see democracy as a "man made" concept at all - it is universal value that we all hold dear but somehow religion has managed to condition people to think otherwise (militantly so). We human beings need personal autonomy and flourish when we have it; we become mindless automatons incapable of progress when we don't. ibn Mikael - great posts. I agree that governments should never enforce Islamic values - but disagree that people should. People enforcing their values? How would that work in practice? As regards your second post - good idea, but you're presupposing the Sharia is infallible. We must remember that the Shariah is 'man made' - it consists of fiqh which is merely the opinion of classical jurists in expansionist Abassid Period - it isn't really divine. It happens all the time. Men refuse to marry women who look and behave a certain way, so the women change in order to meet their demands; vice versa. Parents and neighbors scold children for behaving improperly. Workers chastise other workers for making lewd comments or for glorifying sin. Friends advise friends. Shaykhs and imams give khutbas about negative things within the society. Responsible media figures confront societal problems. Groups of people get together to work in their communities to solve problems. They're are all sorts of social "laws" that are enforced without the need for a police force. I don't mean that citizens should become vigilantes if that's what you were thinking. Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
	Quote

07-09-2011, 11:30 AM	#22
gogona Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 420 Senior Member	Once again, people mistake "democracy" and "republic". Ibn Mikael is describing a Republic with an Islamic Charter. http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-the-...-democracy.htm "By definition, a republic is a political unit governed by a charter, while a democracy is a government whose prevailing force is always that of the majority. Perhaps one of the difficulties in defining these two words — democracy and republic — stems from the fact that many people consider them to be synonyms, which they aren’t. They are no more alike than an apple and a banana, and yet they are often used interchangeably. The difference between a republic and a democracy lies in the ultimate source of official power. In the case of a republic, it lies with a charter; in a democracy, power lies with the rule of the majority. Yet they are often lumped together. " As far as democracy goes, I remember listening to a history podcast how Thomas Jefferson himself disdained the notion of creating a democracy (defined in the classical sense) in the United States, believing it would lead to mob rule. So he wanted a Republic, with a written Charter, with officials and rulers chosen by vote. I do believe that Muslims can have proper Sunni Islamic republics with elected government if they're properly set up. The Charter must be carefully made, institutions and separations of powers set up, etc. Finally, whoever said that the voting franchise has to be universal? The USA did not allow blacks and women to vote for a very long time. If you don't want the Shia and the Qadyanis to vote... well there are historical precedents for that... Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
	Quote

07-09-2011, 12:54 PM	#23
Penisvergroesserung Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 610 Senior Member	I have to disagree with this notion, and it's something that is often trotted out as a reason that Islam and democracy cannot coexist. I've heard so many people say that Muslim cannot have a democratic system of government because people might vote to approve something which is un-Islamic. However, the solution to this is incredibly obvious: make a Constitution that says all newly proposed laws and regulations must abide by the shariah, and have a court system that could strike down laws and regulations that they deem un-Islamic. I just find this whole "oh but they could vote on something and make that which Allah declared haram halal" argument to be absurd. Well...so could any ruler! The difference is that if that ruler does such a thing, within a democratic framework, the people could simply elect him out of office or the courts could simply strike down his laws. In an autocratic system, the leader could do all of these things, and nothing could stop him other than a revolt, which of course is a horrible thing to occur within a country because it leads to economic stagnation and the purging of counter-revolutionaries--or if the revolt fails, simply quite a lot of dead people. 1) Brother, Islam consists of its OWN RULING SYSTEM. do you believe this? 2) Or do you believe that: 'Islam does NOT have its own ruling system'? In which case Muslims can incorporate various systems which serve whichever purposes. You SEEM to say in your response that Islam does NOT have its own ruling system and therefore Islam and democracy should "coexist", on the necks and backs of the Muslim people no less. I for one consider such a proposition for Muslim people- coexist between Islam and democracy- to be a BETRAYAL of who they are, what they represent, and who they can become. I offer you the benefit of the doubt that your position is based on confusion of some of the ideas- an intended objective of those who champion 'democracy- because I have read your comments here for some time now and you seem like a trustworthy brother. Briefly, here is what I mean by the Islamic ruling system: A)the absolute Sovereignty belongs to Allah B)the authority to rule and implement is for the Muslim Ummah C) Process of Legislation: Ijtihad. The utmost, sincere, earnest, qualified exertion through the examination of the evidences (adillah) to extract a ruling (hukm) = ijtihad (A = the source of legislation absolutely emanates from Allah, which means the Wahy. It is NOT a transient, inexact notion (which is sometimes presented in mottos), rather its a definitive issue (of belief). The legislation from the Divine is the Hukm Sharii: the address of the Legislator regarding the actions of Man. So A = Hukm Sharii. ) _____________ Here is how democracy is practiced IN REALITY (as opposed to some fanciful idea of what we can concoct,as several Muslim countries have attempted to do over the past 60 years): A) Sovereignty resides with "the people". B) Authority to rule resides with "the people". C) The process of legislation: majority vote according to constitutional rules. A = a certain people declare themselves the sole power of a region, and formulate a story about themselves in their "preambles". The Egyptian people claimed to have toiled in Egypt since the dawn of civilization. The Pakistani constitution recognizes Jinnah as the 'founder' of the state and "faithful to the declaration made by the founder..." declares Pakistan a democratic state, thus presenting the sovereignty of the state in the name of Jinnah. B = The rule and power of the state resides with "the people", how ever they choose to define the people. In the case of Egypt, its "Egyptian people" as defined by the nation who's borders are defined UN treaties, as opposed to an "Egyptian people" who existed 500 years ago and who's empire stretched into neighboring countries of Jordan, Sudan, Libya, Arabia, etc., or some other definition of "people". C = As sovereigns, these people devise constitutions which define their processes of legislation which are majority rule, but with variations. Ijtihad is not the process of legislation of a democracy as legislation emanates from the state's constitutionally recognized "sovereign". ___________________ Yes, a people can CHOOSE to vote with various restrictions- ie. according to Shariah-, but this connotes the sovereign resides with the people. This is quite different from the Islamic ruling system. When the issue arose of war against the apostate tribes during the khilafat of Abu Bakr (rah), many sahaba (rahm) encouraged and advised him to relent and negotiate with the tribes. Abu Bakr (rah) rejected this because he understood the Adillah- the guidance from the Revelation in clarity. Refusal to pay zakah is abandoning an obligatory act of ibaadat which places one outside of Islam, which no longer offers protection and security. It could be understood that many of these tribes refused zakat as political power plays to gain more influence in Madinah. For Shia, they claim some tribes refused to pay because they believed Ali (rah) deserved to be khalifah. In both cases, they played political games with the Deen of Islam against the best generation, the most knowledgeable generation. It could be argued that the majority of so called Muslims at that time rebelled against Abu Bakr (rah). In a republic, it would have shifted the power to dissolve the parliement and have reelections. Except, Abu Bakr (rah) adoption, the hukm which he adopted regarding abandoning zakah, was that its riddah. According to a democracy, there would have been grounds for reelection as the majority did not accept Abu Bakr (as they were driven by Shaytan- another intangible factor which cannot be coded into a democacy or republican constitution). Its a matter of perception: Islam guides, or Islam is guided. Which is it? For the Prophet (saaw) and the khulafa rashiduun, Islam guided them as a Way of Life which provided ideological direction. Today, the Muslim world is increasingly under the influence of governments and "religious figures" who preseent Islam and in need of reform, or which is man made, etc. and needs to coexist or be altered to fit some modern idea. Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
	Quote

07-09-2011, 01:26 PM	#24
enfoires Join Date Nov 2005 Posts 527 Senior Member	[QUOTE=Usama2;632942] 1) Brother, Islam consists of its OWN RULING SYSTEM. do you believe this? By this do you mean that Islam has certain legal rulings which Muslims and their leaders are obligated to implement or that Islam advocates a specific governance system such as an absolute monarchy or a constitutional republic? Yes, I believe that there are certain legal rulings which Muslims are obligated to implement. I also believe that rulers have the ability to temporarily suspend certain hudood punishments if enforcing them would be a grave hardship on the community--something which has always been recognized as Islamically permissible (see Caliph Umar suspending the hudood of taking the hand of a thief when there was severe drought). No, I don't believe that an absolute monarchy is inherently more Islamic than a constitutional republic that has a legislative branch that enforces the shariah. 2) Or do you believe that: 'Islam does NOT have its own ruling system'? In which case Muslims can incorporate various systems which serve whichever purposes. Muslims have incorporated various ruling systems throughout history and if you believe otherwise, you're living in a fairly tale land. Sultanates were different from caliphates; caliphates themselves often varied--from an absolute monarch to a constitutional monarch with an active parliament. And nowadays you have countries like Iran and Aceh province in Indonesia, both of which enforce the shariah while operating within the framework of a constitutional republic. From my own knowledge, the only consistent factor in all of them was that they had qadis oversee the judicial system. And Allah knows best. Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
	Quote

07-09-2011, 01:52 PM	#25
Penisvergroesserung Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 610 Senior Member	The Sovereignty resides solely with Allah. Translation of the Holy Quran; 6:57: "...[AL hukmu] The command rests with none but Allah. He declares the truth, and He is the best of judges." 6:62 "Then are men returned unto Allah, their protector, the (only) reality: Is not His the command [al hukmu]? and He is the swiftest in taking account. 12:40 "If not Him, ye worship nothing but names which ye have named,- ye and your fathers,- for which Allah hath sent down no authority: [al hukmu] the command is for none but Allah. He hath commanded that ye worship none but Him: that is the right religion, but most men understand not..." 5:48-50: "And unto thee have We revealed the Scripture with the Truth, confirming whatever Scripture was before it, and a watcher over it. So [fahkum]rule/judge between them by that which Allah hath revealed, and follow not their desires away from the truth which hath come unto thee. For each We have appointed a [shir3aatan] Divine Law and a traced-out way. Had Allah willed He could have made you one community. But that He may try you by that which He hath given you (He hath made you as ye are). So vie one with another in good works. Unto Allah ye will all return, and He will then inform you of that wherein ye differ. (48) So [fahkum] rule/judge between them by that which Allah hath revealed, and follow not their desires, but beware of them lest they seduce thee from some part of that which Allah hath revealed unto thee. And if they turn away, then know that Allah's Will is to smite them for some sin of theirs. Lo! many of mankind are evil-livers. (49) [afhukmi] Is it a judgment of the time of [jahiliyiah](pagan) ignorance that they are seeking? Who is better than Allah for judgment to a people who have certainty (in their belief)? (50) " As one can follow in these ayaat, the word "hukmu" and its derivative plays a key rule regarding sovereignty, legal authority to rule and judgement, and the source of ruling. 'Hukmu' is sovereignty to determine the commands. 'Hukm' is both judge and rule, as in that time, the time of the Prophet (saaw) in particular, the ruler and judge were embodied in one office as well as separated as two different offices ( various sahabi were judges at the same time as the Prophet (saw) was both ruler and judge). Allah (SWT) addresses this by giving examples of the previous peoples, ahlil kitab, and how they manipulated their revelations to suit their circumstances. Like us today, Bani Israel were dominated by the Roman pagan empire and they altered their ways to correspond, or 'coexist'. Its no surprise then, that 5:50 raises the exact issue of which Way should believers follow: the Way which Allah (SWT) has revealed, or the way of Jahiliyah, which can be interpretted as applying to democracy as well. Democracy being a specific system adopted by the pagan Greeks and revived by the Western powers millenia later as part of their Enlightenment from Judeo Christian tyranny. Thus, why do we seek the judgement of jahili systems when the command of Allah is clear? Note Sofian's claim: As regards your second post - good idea, but you're presupposing the Sharia is infallible. We must remember that the Shariah is 'man made' - it consists of fiqh which is merely the opinion of classical jurists in expansionist Abassid Period - it isn't really divine . Either this is an ignorant statement which is simply echoing propaganda, or its a diabolical statement meant to mislead Muslims, for which is condemnation and curses. In either case, it arrogantly and imperiously seeks to undermine the thoughts and sentiments of the Muslim Ummah towards Shariah. Shariah is commonly understood to mean the divine guidance, commands and prohibitions of Allah. The Hukm Sharii is the specific term used by the fuqaha to distinguish between the fiqh and the actual textual evidences. Fiqh is the body of interpretations of Hukm Sharii. Sofian's statement sought to mix Hukm Sharii with fiqh to render them all "manmade". When the common people say "Shariah" in terms of ruling and governance, they MEAN "HUKM SHARII". Anyone who says Hukm Sharii is NOT divine upon knowing what it is, has committed kufr. It is the motivation of enemies of Islam to attack Shariah, as is commonly understood pertaining to ruling. and Allah knows Best. Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
	Quote

07-09-2011, 02:24 PM	#26
Penisvergroesserung Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 610 Senior Member	[QUOTE=ibn Mikael;632945] 1) Brother, Islam consists of its OWN RULING SYSTEM. do you believe this? By this do you mean that Islam has certain legal rulings which Muslims and their leaders are obligated to implement or that Islam advocates a specific governance system such as an absolute monarchy or a constitutional republic? Yes, I believe that there are certain legal rulings which Muslims are obligated to implement. I also believe that rulers have the ability to temporarily suspend certain hudood punishments if enforcing them would be a grave hardship on the community--something which has always been recognized as Islamically permissible (see Caliph Umar suspending the hudood of taking the hand of a thief when there was severe drought). No, I don't believe that an absolute monarchy is inherently more Islamic than a constitutional republic that has a legislative branch that enforces the shariah. 2) Or do you believe that: 'Islam does NOT have its own ruling system'? In which case Muslims can incorporate various systems which serve whichever purposes. Muslims have incorporated various ruling systems throughout history and if you believe otherwise, you're living in a fairly tale land. Sultanates were different from caliphates; caliphates themselves often varied--from an absolute monarch to a constitutional monarch with an active parliament. And nowadays you have countries like Iran and Aceh province in Indonesia, both of which enforce the shariah while operating within the framework of a constitutional republic. From my own knowledge, the only consistent factor in all of them was that they had qadis oversee the judicial system. And Allah knows best. By ruling system, I mean a 'system' - not merely some rulings. This is what I was referring to "Islam guides" vs. "Islam is guided". I have neither claimed an absolute monarchy nor a constitutional republic are representative of the Islamic ruling system. Why have you limited yourself to these systems? Yes, various dynasties did different things when it came to ruling. But they are not the source of guidance in Islam. Nor did An Nabi (saw) say we should follow them as he (saaw) said we should follow the khulafaa Rashiduun. Again, peacemeal implementation of Shariah is NOT the example, its the experimentation of various peoples. Why MUST the source of legislation of a state be "the people"? Tell me please, Ibn Michael? Why must a people vote on legislation if Allah (SWT) has already legislated it? If representation is your concern, the Islamic system has that, for women, for nonMuslims as well, in the majlis ash shura. If balance of power is your concern, that was practiced and exemplified by the Prophet (saw) and the khulafa rashiduun, as executive and judiciary branches which included bringing caliph Umar (ra) to trial. If accountability is your concern, there is arguably no state that has been more conscientious about accountability than the Islamic state of the Prophet (saaw) followed by the khulafaa rashiduun. And following their models would be the best option. What is the importance of the "majority" of people? Here are some ayaat which address the people of the earth: Translation of Holy Quran "6:116 Wert thou to follow the (majority)common run of those on earth, they will lead thee away from the way of Allah. They follow nothing but conjecture: they do nothing but guess." 7:179 "Already have We urged unto hell many of the jinn and humankind, having hearts wherewith they understand not, and having eyes wherewith they see not, and having ears wherewith they hear not. These are as the cattle - nay, but they are worse! These are the neglectful. (179) 25:43-44: " Hast thou seen him who chooseth for his god his own lust? Wouldst thou then be guardian over him? (43) Or deemest thou that most of them hear or understand? They are but as the cattle - nay, but they are farther astray " And that's not to mention Allah describing the pure nature of Man being rebellious, weak, ungrateful. And certainly Allah knows best. Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
	Quote

07-09-2011, 03:56 PM	#27
Tzqowwyt Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 399 Senior Member	There is no such concept as "Republic" in Islaam. Neither is there any such concept as "Constitution". The constitution of an Islamic state is the Quraan and Sunnah. Period In Islaam, a ruler is for life. The idea of "Republic" was invented by Plato, a mushrik Greek philosopher. Turn away from all these Western, Greek, and foreign ideas and stick to Quraan and Sunnah. That is our salvation. Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
	Quote

07-09-2011, 03:58 PM	#28
Tzqowwyt Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 399 Senior Member	There is no such concept as "Republic" in Islaam. Neither is there any such concept as "Constitution". The constitution of an Islamic state is the Quraan and Sunnah. Period In Islaam, a ruler is for life. The idea of "Republic" was invented by Plato, a mushrik Greek philosopher. Turn away from all these Western, Greek, and foreign ideas and stick to Quraan and Sunnah. That is our salvation. And May Allaah continue to ruin the "Arab spring", and continue to disgrace the revolutionaries and protestors. Ameen. Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
	Quote

07-10-2011, 12:59 AM	#29
Tzqowwyt Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 399 Senior Member	I forgot you have mastered the concept of Siyas in Islam!! what a joke! May the pervert and misogonist relegious fascist perish to uplift the ummah away from shrik of worhsipping of Mr. Saudia and may Allah give us knowledge, wishdom and intelegence away from psudo khawarij of trend that only causes the rise of murtad & mutazilah trend Ameen Let us wait and see whose Du'a Allaah answers Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
	Quote

07-10-2011, 04:06 AM	#30
Ekzamenov Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 508 Senior Member	Bismillah Abdul Qadeer you should be thankful that there is no shariah law fully being implemented. The likes of you would have the first candidate for flogging! By the way marry your daughter or your sister to one of the salafist pervert who marry and devorce. Perhaps you are the type to do the same because you can quote hadith!! Allahualam he comes across as a coprocreep that would bash his daughter/sister when she returns. was salaam Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
	Quote

07-10-2011, 03:11 PM	#31
enfoires Join Date Nov 2005 Posts 527 Senior Member	Just because we may disagree on matters doesn't mean we should resort to name-calling and insults. If you cannot engage is civil debate on issues, then don't bother writing anything at all. Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
	Quote

07-11-2011, 11:51 AM	#32
Penisvergroesserung Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 610 Senior Member	Ibn Mikael, I agree with your most recent post: we must maintain respectable manners and conduct towards each other in order to arrive at understanding. This attacking and counterattacking is futile and destructive. We have to move forward, insha Allah. That said, insha Allah, please if you will address these questions: Why MUST the source of legislation of a state be "the people"? Why must a people vote on legislation if Allah (SWT) has already legislated it? What is the importance of the majority of the people? Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
	Quote

07-11-2011, 12:24 PM	#33
enfoires Join Date Nov 2005 Posts 527 Senior Member	Ibn Mikael, I agree with your most recent post: we must maintain respectable manners and conduct towards each other in order to arrive at understanding. This attacking and counterattacking is futile and destructive. We have to move forward, insha Allah. That said, insha Allah, please if you will address these questions: 1. Who are you suggesting should legislate on new issues that arise within a country? A benevolent dictatorship? What exactly is your alternative other than the people? Do you believe Allah is going to give us a new prophet every hundred years or so who will definitively address new issues? Of course not, and in that absence, people will differ regarding issues. As such, the consensus of the majority matters. 2. As I stated previously, a state could simply adopt a constitution that says no law shall be passed which violates Islamic law (with a clear definition of what is Islamic law). Therefore, if a people try to pass a piece of legislation that contravenes the shariah, the courts could simply strike it down. New issues arise and you can't simply ignore them. Saying "follow the shariah" isn't a real answer, because it assumes that the shariah has specifically addressed the issue before. 3. The majority of the people matters, because if the majority of the people don't like what the government is doing, they'll simply kick out or kill the leaders. You could try ignoring the majority if you're leading, but you aren't gonna be lasting too long--I can guarantee that . Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
	Quote

07-12-2011, 06:56 PM	#34
Penisvergroesserung Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 610 Senior Member	Before I reply, are we in agreement that the ruling system of the Prophet (saw) and the khulafa rashidoon is the proper and intellectually superior model for ruling? 1. Who are you suggesting should legislate on new issues that arise within a country? A benevolent dictatorship? What exactly is your alternative other than the people? Do you believe Allah is going to give us a new prophet every hundred years or so who will definitively address new issues? Of course not, and in that absence, people will differ regarding issues. As such, the consensus of the majority matters. :. Legislation is for the sovereign, Al Haakim Allah (SWT) alone. Here is a link to a Usulul Fiqh dars regarding Allah (SWT) as al Hakim, the source of legislation, and how the Aql and the Naql (revelation) come together: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XBjPx4mnnSc According to the Islamic ruling system, the ruler titled caliph, sultan, amir, or whichever, receives Bayah, allegiance, from the Muslim people to rule by and implement and lead by the Hukm Sharii. The ruler is responsible for adopting rulings on various issues. Abu Bakr (rh) adopted several rulings, such as on divorce, which were practiced by the sahaba and Muslim people. But the ruler is wise to avoid adopting on all issues to allow for jurisprudential interpretation ijtihad. When an issue arises which is new, the ruler is responsible for dealing with it by adopting on the issue, or not adopting on it, depending. The process of doing this is according to Ijithad. He may choose to have a Fiqh committee address it, or have various scholars do so, or choose to do so himself if he is qualified. But it is NOT open to majority vote in the sense that people who have no knowledge of deen, who are enemies of Islam, can decide on the adoption. 2. As I stated previously, a state could simply adopt a constitution that says no law shall be passed which violates Islamic law (with a clear definition of what is Islamic law). Therefore, if a people try to pass a piece of legislation that contravenes the shariah, the courts could simply strike it down. New issues arise and you can't simply ignore them. Saying "follow the shariah" isn't a real answer, because it assumes that the shariah has specifically addressed the issue before. Do PEOPLE know what is right and wrong INTRINSIC TO THEMSELVES? Do you know what is right and wrong simply by observing a matter? People have NO INTRINSIC POWER TO ORIGINATE RIGHT AND WRONG. And yet you wish to grant them power to vote on what is right and wrong. Based on what? Their feelings? Their dreams? Thus, Allah (SWT) said Translation of Quran 3:3 Aforetime, for a guidance to mankind; and hath revealed the Criterion (of right and wrong). Lo! those who disbelieve the revelations of Allah, theirs will be a heavy doom. Allah is Mighty, Able to Requite (the wrong). : 3. The majority of the people matters, because if the majority of the people don't like what the government is doing, they'll simply kick out or kill the leaders. You could try ignoring the majority if you're leading, but you aren't gonna be lasting too long--I can guarantee that . So the whims of the majority should be obeyed? If you are speaking of the dynamic between a ruler and the ruled, then the matter of the people's consent is important in some ways, either as legitimatization of the authority of the government, as in a pledge of allegiance. In the Islamic ruling system, the Bayah is the transfer of POWER and authority of the People to the ruler. Whether this happens via a direct general election, or a selection committee, this is the issue of ruling according to Shariah. But majority rule that votes on each and every law breeds chaos and conflict. This was the original idea of democracy for a select few GREEK men who were empowered to decide day to day laws based on their individual interests. It became indirect when these men chose 'representatives' who decided for them. Today, select elite men continue to decide laws in democracies by getting representatives elected by fooling the masses of people to support them. Presidents of the USA are largely deemed as employees who do the bidding of the elite and power who got them elected. The idea of Right, Good, Justice are mere slogans to win majority or popular support. Democracy is a venue for the authoritarianism of a few elite, powerful, and very often wicked men, to determine the affairs of the majority. And Allah knows best. Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
	Quote

07-14-2011, 05:32 PM	#35
Penisvergroesserung Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 610 Senior Member	Ibn Mikael, or any brother, I welcome your replies. Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
	Quote

Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)

06-06-2018, 09:17 AM	#37
zzzza Join Date Jan 2018 Posts 663 Senior Member	michael kors uk broncos jerseys polo ralph lauren outlet golden goose sneakers ray ban sunglasses christian louboutin outlet dolphins jerseys oakley sunglasses true religion outlet nike air jordan oakley sunglasses wholesale michael kors outlet baltimore ravens jerseys michael kors outlet coach factory outlet michael kors handbags manolo blahnik shoes supreme shirt jets jersey coach factory outlet cheap nfl jerseys ralph lauren outlet coach outlet online soccer boots nike roshe run michael kors handbags golden goose shoes dsquared2 coach outlet coach outlet online coach outlet bengals jersey moncler jackets true religion outlet moncler jackets kate spade handbags coach outlet dsquared kate spade outlet online colts jerseys nike shoes canada goose jackets jordan shoes nike blazer pas cher ray ban eyeglasses moncler online outlet coach handbags soccer shoes nike tn pas cher kate spade outlet online chiefs jersey ralph lauren outlet coach outlet michael kors handbags nike trainers issey miyake hermes belt super dry pandora jewelry outlet michael kors outlet pandora charms nike outlet pittsburgh steelers jersey coach factory outlet true religion outlet off white nike adidas outlet true religion outlet store jordan shoes michael kors bottega coach outlet store online fitflops coach outlet golden goose shoes coach outlet ralph lauren uk air jordan 8 canada goose jackets ralph lauren uk supreme outlet pandora jewelry nike roshe tory burch handbags nike air max 95 ultra michael kors outlet clearance ralph lauren outlet pandora jewelry yeezy boost 350 coach outlet online adidas shoes christian louboutin shoes oakley sunglasses issey miyake perfume nike chaussure ed hardy clothing moncler outlet longchamp bags nike soldes jordans fitflops sale clearance polo homme pas chère michael kors outlet online red bottom shoes pandora charms outlet coach outlet redskins jerseys air max 90 pandora charms outlet kate spade outlet coach outlet online michael kors outlet online michael kors uk louboutin shoes christian louboutin outlet canada goose jackets longchamp handbags canada goose jackets coach outlet online coach outlet adidas superstar ray ban sunglasses coach outlet nike huarache kate spade outlet ray ban eyeglasses nike huarache nike outlet true religion outlet store ralph lauren outlet michael kors outlet online sale oakley sunglasses off white outlet moncler jackets coach outlet canada goose jackets giants jersey salomom shoes kate spade outlet online bills jerseys jordan shoes hugo boss sale canada goose outlet canada goose jackets cheap basketball shoes coach factory outlet canada goose outlet ray ban sunglasses bottega veneta nike factory outlet longchamp outlet chargers jerseys nike air max red bottom pandora oakley sunglasses wholesale louboutin shoes pandora cheap nba jerseys oakley sunglasses wholesale nike blazer miami heat jersey red bottom football pas cher ralph lauren uk michael kors handbags true religion outlet kate spade outlet online nike air huarache off white shoes cheap ray bans mbt shoes moncler outlet pandora jewelry michael kors outlet online nike presto femme nike outlet true religion outlet red bottom shoes coach factory outlet moncler online nike huarache prada handbags ecco shoes pandora charms outlet salomon michael kors handbags sale san antonio spurs jerseys ralph lauren outlet clippers jersey nike shoes huaraches off white shoes ralph lauren outlet off-white clothing pandora nike trainers yeezy boost 350 v2 michael kors handbags christian louboutin shoes nike shoes basketball shoes saics running shoes ray ban eyeglasses adidas nmd runner polo lacoste nike air max 90 coach outlet polo ralph lauren christian louboutin shoes nike chaussure femme coach outlet online cleveland cavaliers jerseys nike shoes for men moncler online outlet ed hardy uk chrome hearts carolina jerseys cheap jordans moncler online pandora jewelry outlet kate spade outlet canada goose jackets asics shoes giuseppe zanotti jordans pandora charms christian louboutin shoes ralph lauren outlet nike outlet store ralph lauren outlet canada goose outlet mlb jerseys ecco outlet pandora fitflops sale nike shoes tn pas cher canada goose outlet ralph lauren uk off white jordan 1 coach outlet online canada goose outlet michael kors handbags outlet adidas yeezy polo ralph lauren 49ers jersey mulberry handbags manolo blahnik nhl jerseys nike shoes tennessee titans jersey pandora canada goose jackets louboutin shoes christian louboutin shoes golden state warriors jerseys christian louboutin outlet vibram fivefingers shoes christian louboutin outlet cheap nhl jerseys salomom shoes pandora nba jerseys nike tn pas cher polo pas chère pandora outlet pandora michael kors outlet online basket nike femme new orleans saints jerseys air max 90 pandora jewelry ferragamo shoes ralph lauren uk moncler jackets christian louboutin shoes coach outlet online nike air huarache moncler online moncler online outlet michael kors outlet nike trainers yeezy shoes canada goose jackets pandora reebok shoes coach factory outlet tods outlet nike air max 90 supreme shirt lacoste outlet canada goose outlet vibram fivefingers dsquared2 vibram five fingers pandora outlet coach outlet golden goose canada goose jackets mbt oakland raiders jerseys ralph lauren uk bears jerseys jimmy choo shoes off-white clothing coach outlet fitflops sale clearance coach outlet nhl jerseys wholesale ralph lauren uk nike factory outlet nike presto oakley sunglasses wholesale skechers shoes browns jerseys oakley sunglasses cheap nike shoes cowboys jerseys ultra boost 3.0 eagles jerseys nike huarache air jordan 4 longchamp handbags polo ralph lauren canada goose jackets prada outlet fitflops sale clearance golden goose sneakers nike requin pas cher canada goose uk canada goose polo ralph lauren atlanta falcons jerseys coach outlet online nike requin golden goose moncler outlet クロムハーツ nike tn minnesota vikings jerseys nike air huarache ralph lauren uk coach outlet chicago bulls jersey detroit lions jerseys valentino shoes ralph lauren uk new england patriots jerseys tods shoes tory burch outlet oakley sunglasses nike factory store michael kors outlet ralph lauren uk ferragamo outlet nfl jerseys ralph lauren uk christian louboutin shoes nike soldes femme adidas nmd ralph lauren outlet dsquared fitflops sale snapbacks wholesale true religion jeans true religion outlet manolo blahnik outlet maillot football pas cher supreme clothing houston texans jerseys kate spade outlet online coach outlet online oakley glasses ralph lauren outlet pandora ugg boots canada goose outlet adidas superstars oklahoma city thunder jerseys oakley sunglasses wholesale polo pas cher nike huarache moncler outlet coach outlet ralph lauren outlet jordan 8 pandora salomon off white ralph lauren outlet valentino jimmy choo outlet ralph lauren uk nike trainers uk jordans air jordan uk off white clothing brand moncler jackets coach outlet online ray ban sunglasses ray ban eyeglasses ralph lauren outlet oakley sunglasses seahawks jersey nike air max 95 canada goose outlet true religion jeans coach factory outlet true religion outlet louboutin shoes coach outlet online ugg boots uk canada goose outlet coach outlet polo ralph lauren outlet converse shoes moncler pandora outlet moncler outlet ralph lauren outlet arizona cardinals jerseys nike factory store hermes belts fitflops sale clearance air huarache adidas outlet online coach outlet christian louboutin shoes nike air max 2017 christian louboutin sale coach outlet online moncler uk hugo boss outlet coach outlet coach outlet online nike store nike shoes for women louboutin shoes christian louboutin shoes ralph lauren uk coach outlet online ralph lauren outlet skechers outlet pandora jewelry ralph lauren uk pandora charms outlet off white clothing off white clothing coach outlet online nike outlet converse trainers basket nike longchamp outlet new nike shoes oakley sunglasses mulberry uk canada goose jackets supreme new york nike factory los angeles lakers jerseys louboutin shoes ray ban sunglasses coach outlet online ralph lauren uk christian louboutin shoes pandora charms coach outlet louboutin shoes coach outlet online mbt shoes outlet ralph lauren outlet coach outlet cheap oakley sunglasses kate spade outlet coach outlet nike outlet jordan shoes oakley sunglasses wholesale giuseppe zanotti sneakers fitflops shoes mbt shoes oakley sunglasses adidas ultra boost polo ralph lauren outlet green bay packers jerseys nike shoes canada goose jackets mlb shop ultra boost boston celtics jersey nike shoes kate spade outlet jordan 4 pandora jewelry ralph lauren outlet nike huarache femme kate spade outlet oakley sunglasses moncler online outlet nike outlet jordan shoes coach outlet reebok pandora charms coach factory outlet canada goose outlet superdry clothing moncler online cheap snapbacks michael kors outlet online moncler jackets true religion jeans jacksonville jaguars jersey new york knicks jersey prada shoes true religion jeans nike outlet store coach outlet cheap jordan shoes polo ralph lauren adidas football soldes football soldes nike shoes prada shoes michael kors handbags true religion jeans pandora charms off white jordan 1 cheap jordans moncler jackets adidas yeezy oakley sunglasses wholesale nike huarache pandora jewelry yeezy supreme clothing canada goose uk pandora jewelry outlet jordan shoes michael kors outlet zzzzz2018.6.6 Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
	Quote

06-07-2018, 04:40 AM	#39
20170425yuanyuan Join Date Apr 2017 Posts 6,459 Senior Member	nike trainers michael kors handbags prada outlet hermes birkin pandora outlet fred perry polo coach outlet louis vuitton outlet nike outlet michael kors outlet ralph lauren shirts polo ralph lauren nike outlet pandora charms sale clearance polo ralph lauren christian louboutin outlet coach outlet nfl jerseys wholesale michael kors outlet pandora jewelry outlet coach outlet kate spade outlet pandora charms michael kors outlet off white clothing moncler outlet birkenstock outlet kate spade outlet coach outlet polo outlet canada goose outlet mont blanc pens michael kors outlet ed hardy clothing nike shoes ralph lauren outlet michael kors outlet mcm handbags coach outlet michael kors outlet pandora jewelry cheap jordans cheap mlb jerseys mulberry handbags michael kors handbags christian louboutin outlet christian louboutin outlet tory burch outlet michael kors outlet kate spade outlet ugg boots clearance kate spade outlet canada goose outlet canada goose jackets longchamp outlet uggs outlet polo ralph lauren ralph lauren outlet kate spade outlet vans shoes air max 90 ugg boots ralph lauren sale clearance kate spade outlet pandora charms longchamp outlet coach outlet polo ralph lauren rolex watches michael kors outlet coach outlet coach outlet true religion outlet true religion jeans kobe bryant shoes ugg outlet ralph lauren polo shirts uggs outlet rolex watches air jordan shoes ralph lauren outlet canada goose outlet puma outlet adidas yeezy shoes gucci outlet pandora outlet coach outlet online nike outlet michael kors outlet canada goose jackets michael kors outlet adidas nmd shoes pandora jewelry cheap nfl jerseys michael kors outlet michael kors outlet coach outlet kate spade handbags coach outlet store online mbt shoes pandora outlet coach outlet online pandora outlet fitflops sale clearance coach outlet christian louboutin outlet oakley sunglasses wholesale nfl jerseys ray ban sunglasses asics running shoes kate spade outlet oakley sunglasses pandora outlet pandora jewelry oakley sunglasses wholesale ray ban sunglasse valentino outlet coach outlet adidas nmd christian louboutin outlet ray ban sunglasses fred perry polo shirts michael kors outlet christian louboutin outlet fred perry polo shirts polo ralph lauren pas cher michael kors outlet true religion jeans yeezy boost 350 nfl jerseys uggs outlet cheap jordans adidas outlet mcm outlet canada goose outlet uggs outlet michael kors outlet michael kors outlet fitflops sale clearance michael kors outlet pandora outlet michael kors handbags yaoxuemei20180607 Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
	Quote