[DenisLevvin]

I have a question regarding the pronunciation of the arabic letter ض (daad) ... the letter which appears in the last ayat of Surah Fatiha - 'waladdaaalleeen'. I have heard indian and pakistani reciters recite the daad as a very soft letter (almost like a light letter zhaa ظ as in zhulm) - with almost do 'd' sound (as in daal). However, every single non indian or pakistani reciter I have heard recites the ض (daad) with the 'd' sound (as in daal).

I find it strange that every single qaari outside of india and pakistan recite harf daad in one manner, while many indian and pakistani qaris and alims recite it in a different manner.

I asked an alim once and he said that atleast in pakistan it was a sectarian issue .. where deobandis would recite it in the very light way, and the barelwis would recite it in the arab style. He said that you could tell who was a deobandi and a barelwi by just watching out for how they pronounce the daad (ض).

What's up with this weird indopak pronounciation of it, and why do they insist on pronouncing it in that manner that they do? Proof?

[stadiaKab]

I have a question regarding the pronunciation of the arabic letter ض (daad) ... the letter which appears in the last ayat of Surah Fatiha - 'waladdaaalleeen'. I have heard indian and pakistani reciters recite the daad as a very soft letter (almost like a light letter zhaa ظ as in zhulm) - with almost do 'd' sound (as in daal). However, every single non indian or pakistani reciter I have heard recites the ض (daad) with the 'd' sound (as in daal).

I find it strange that every single qaari outside of india and pakistan recite harf daad in one manner, while many indian and pakistani qaris and alims recite it in a different manner.

I asked an alim once and he said that atleast in pakistan it was a sectarian issue .. where deobandis would recite it in the very light way, and the barelwis would recite it in the arab style. He said that you could tell who was a deobandi and a barelwi by just watching out for how they pronounce the daad (ض).

What's up with this weird indopak pronounciation of it, and why do they insist on pronouncing it in that manner that they do? Proof?

I know who you are!

Anyway, I had a discussion with Imam Tahir Anwar on this and he has pretty convincing evidence. He said you need to go and check the books of tajwid by Arabs, one he pointed out was Shatibi.

[DenisLevvin]

I know you know who I am .

Why don't the arabs practice it then? I've read the makhraj of the letter ض .. there is no way you can pronounce it in the desi way if you stick with the makhraj.

The side of the lisaan has to touch the dawahik, tawahin, and nawajiz .. the the sound can come from the left, right, or both sides together ... where does the light ظ sound come from?

[ENCOSEARRALIA]

AsslaamUAlaikum
Actually we have had this discussion for days with our Tajweed teacher. She is an excellent Qaria, pakistani origin but born and raised in Saudia. She has got the Tajweed degree from university of Riyadh. Her list of teachers include Qari Fateh Mohammad (the legend in Tajweed). Actually she was the correcting the Tajweed of teachers of certain Madrassas in lahore. One of the controversies was the pronounciation of Dhaad, so much so that the Qari Hazrat protested and there was a big howl over this issue. Fatawas were taken from Jamia Ashrafia from Madaris of karachi etc.
The true madhab in this pronounciation is that it should not resemble a Zhaa or a Daa. Dhaad has its own makhraj and should be pronounced from that. Now the issue in pakistan is that as this letter is difficult to pronounce by the Ajmis they keep it close to Zhaa which is easier to utter. The Ghayr Muqallid however prefer to keep it closer to Daa(following the Saudi prounciation which is actually not Dhaa). Well this is basically the situation here. Wassalaam

[newwebstar]

In the Nurull Ithaa this discussion takes place and we find that on most occasions due to the mother tongue of the recite he/she finds it difficult to recite certain arabic letters

Also i would rather transliterate what you call the Dhaa as 'Thaaa'

Isnt that closer to the arabic way?

Also i find the observation about deo and barel to be Ridiculous

[DINAKuncher]

Im currently taking a tajwid course in my city. and alhumdulillah its very beneficial and im so grateful that Allah Ta'ala gave me the tawfeeq to learn tajweed. Tajweed is BEAUTIFUL! subhanAllah.

It is so important to pronounce the letter ض from its proper makhraj or else we cud be making grave errors in recitation.

the makhraj of ض is haffatul lisaan... the back side of the tongue should touch the top right molars or top left or both sides.

here is an illustration: http://www.iqrapk.com/tajweed/2.htm

if u practice this, (and its best done with a qualified teacher) you will notice the difference in the pronounciation of ض and daal and dhaa.

the daal is pronounced from ... the tip of the tongue touching the top front teeth. so it is distinct from Dhaad.

also learning the charcteristics (sifaat) of all the letters will help one distinguish the points of articulations and special charcteristics of each letter. For example, the letter Dhaad is a letter of isti' la (rough letter) while daal is a letter of istifaal (soft letter).

may Allah give us all the tawfeeq to learn and recite the Quran with tajweed. ameen

waslaam

[Trientoriciom]

So what is the definitive answer to this?

Can somebody summarize what has been written thus far in this thread insofar as an answer to the issue is concerned?

[anatmob]

The Arabs say, "Arabic is the language of Daad." (al-'Arabi huwa lughat al-daad).

It is very difficult to say the daad sound. Even Arabs have trouble saying it perfect. I am Arab and speak Arabic and my 'ayn and and taa and dhaa and everything; but since I was born in the USA I also have some trouble with daad.

[duncanalisstmp]

I asked an alim once and he said that atleast in pakistan it was a sectarian issue .. where deobandis would recite it in the very light way, and the barelwis would recite it in the arab style. He said that you could tell who was a deobandi and a barelwi by just watching out for how they pronounce the daad (ض). wonderful illustration of paki islam

[Diortarkivoff]

Salamu Alaikum guys,

I don't know about the actual Qaris from the subcontinent, but i have noticed that whenever i pray behind a first generation desi (often termed as 'uncle' ) that they pronounce the letter 'daad' more like 'duad'. i think this is mainly because they several of that letters of the urdu alphabet are pronounced differently that their arabic equivalents.

Furthermore, ive noticed that they pronounce that letter 'dhaal' as 'zaal'
for example, in surah fatiha, you will often hear them pronounce the verse "siratul ladhina" as "siratul lazina"

anyone else notice this?
once again, i think that the reason for this is because of the difference in how certain letters of the urdu alpabet are pronounced. Correct me if im mistaken, but isnt the letter 'dhaal' actually pronounced as 'zaal' in urdu?

well, thats my 2 cents.

let me know your thoughts.

masalam

[DenisLevvin]

I know who you are!

Anyway, I had a discussion with Imam Tahir Anwar on this and he has pretty convincing evidence. He said you need to go and check the books of tajwid by Arabs, one he pointed out was Shatibi.

I know we already discussed this, but for the benefit of everyone else ...

Here is an example of the the pronunciation of ض by a qari from the Shatibiya tariq (in his own words http://tajweedinenglish.com/about.htm) of recititation.

fast forward to 3min 20sec for an example.
http://media.libsyn.com/media/tajwee...Hidden_mis.mp3

Why is there not a single qari in this universe, who is not desi or indoctrinated by desis, who recites the ض in the desi way?! If there is one, let it be known...

[Goooooblin]

Assalamu Alaykum Ikhwani,

How are newbies like us supposed to solve something that has been debated amongst the scholars for centuries ? Almost like discussing which mathab is better (ie hanafi, shaafi, etc). Perhaps it would be sensible to say both views are valid and should be respected. It would be safest to follow one's teacher, provided he/she is fully qualified and links back through a chain to our Beloved (peace and blessings be upon him)....

In any case, I hope the following reference is useful.

REF: http://www.abouttajweed.com/260607.htm

Fee Amaanillah,
Your brother in Islam

[namaikaimvputka]

wonderful illustration of paki islam

I may be the only one to notice it, but my observation has been completely different than the above comment.

In the area I lived in pakistan we had a total of 7 masajid, out of which 2 were deobandi and one Ahl Hadith. The remaining were all barelvies.

My own parents are born into barelvi surrounding.

What I have observed is, that the barelvi Imaams in masajid do not know tajweed rules. I had a very very hard time in the taraweeh last year since my father goes to a barelvi masjid. The recitation was either 4x haddar (thus no focus on makharij and tajweed at all) or if it was hadar speed then the tajweed would be way out of line. I spent a few days in the mosque and then humbly asked my father if I can go and check out the deobandi mosque. The taraweeh in deobandi mosque was exactly like we have in canada or other places. Alhamdulillah the pronunciation was very well aside from some miner Lahn Khafies.. Which I didnt mind.

I have met many imaams of barelvi mosque, and so far aside from those Qaris on the TV or those in the likes of Wahed Zafar Qasmi.. I have not met any who would recite properly.

So I in the least would not agree to that sectarian comment. there are good and bad everywhere..

[Ruiceara]

I have a question regarding the pronunciation of the arabic letter ض (daad) ... the letter which appears in the last ayat of Surah Fatiha - 'waladdaaalleeen'. I have heard indian and pakistani reciters recite the daad as a very soft letter (almost like a light letter zhaa ظ as in zhulm) - with almost do 'd' sound (as in daal). However, every single non indian or pakistani reciter I have heard recites the ض (daad) with the 'd' sound (as in daal).

I find it strange that every single qaari outside of india and pakistan recite harf daad in one manner, while many indian and pakistani qaris and alims recite it in a different manner.

I asked an alim once and he said that atleast in pakistan it was a sectarian issue .. where deobandis would recite it in the very light way, and the barelwis would recite it in the arab style. He said that you could tell who was a deobandi and a barelwi by just watching out for how they pronounce the daad (ض).

What's up with this weird indopak pronounciation of it, and why do they insist on pronouncing it in that manner that they do? Proof?

I think it's safe to say that of all the different types of Muslims, desis have THE worst tajweed, haha (with a few exceptions, of course). In all my experience, I don't think there is another group who has a harder time than the desis in regards to reciting the mushaf with proper tajweed (and this is coming from a desi, too).

The reason why the Pakistanis/Indians have the hardest time is because the Arabic alphabet is also their alphabet (Urdu). In Urdu, the (ض) is pronounced "duaad", as opposed to the correct pronuncation, which is more of a "Daad", where it sounds like a heavier daal (د). This is a common mistake, and results from simple confusion.

For instance, it's like telling a natural born English speaker that from now on, everytime you see the letter "s", you will make it a "d". It's the same when you tell a Desi to make the letter "Daad" and not "Duaad".

It's a simple matter of correcting the problem, but many desis are stubborn. For instance, whenver I tell many Uncles that the (ض) is pronounced "Daad", they say, 'But no beta, in Urdu we pronounce it like "duaad".' Sorry, but this isn't Urdu.

[namaikaimvputka]

n Urdu, the (ض) is pronounced "duaad", as opposed to the correct pronuncation, which is more of a "Daad" Incorrect, the pronunciation of (ض) in urdu is "Zuaad" and the pronunciation is similar to Zuay (ظ) and Zaa (ز) .. These all have same pronunciation. Which is why many ooold imams of mosques pronounce "Walazzaaleen". Another point is that the culprit here is NOT urdu, rather persian. In many fatawa books if you look about makhraj of (ض) they will mention that "if so and so reads it with "farsee lehja" (persian dialect) then.... "

In the next generation they decided to correct it and then it went the next extreme.. a "Daal" (د) pronunciation. So now many imaams are reciting is "Waladdaaleen"

Some of you would say, but that is correct sine its is "Daad" and not "Duad". But that is incorrect. (ض)'s makhraj is the side of the tounge and gums of Adraas (all the teeth on the side). There after the question of Daad and Duaad, It is infact "Duaad" but not exactly "Duaad" .

(ض) has these qualities

1. Jahr
2. Rikhwa
3. Musta'liya
4. Mutbaqa
5. Mustataala
6. Mufakhama

This Mutbaqa Quality gives (ض) a full mouth pronunciation. And this quality is a permenant quality, so (ض) will be full mouth all the times. This joined with the following give (ض) its rounded full continuous sound.

The quality of Istitaala is that when it is pronounce the voice should move throughout its makhraj. This makes the voice sort of rounded but not so round as to be seen as "closed Daal" what we call "Daal Pur"..

Also it is to be noted that It has its own rules, and only by those rules it becomes a (ض) so practice practice and practice..

[Automobill]

Asslamo Allaikum,

One of my teachers is an Egyptian Shaykh who is a graduate of Al-Azhar university and I quote him verbatim,

“I went to the Prophets Mosque and I was talking to a 80 year old Pakistani and he grilled me on the pronunciation of Dhaad and declared that my recitation is non-sense & he made me practise it, and Wa-Allah it was the first time in life I realised the correct pronunciation of Dhaad”

Most Qarees/Imams in Saudia as I have already stated are either Deobandees or from Nadwa and having travelled across many parts of the world, I have YET to pray behind a single Barelwee Imam who’s Tajweed I find satisfactory!

In general, Barelwee Imams have no idea about Tajweed…

If someone wants to twist this in some sort of sectarian biased manner, then be it!

Anyone who thinks that Asians can’t recite then in the UK should visit Dewsbury Markaz & pray Esha & Faj’r & I challenge anyone to pick a single mistake of Tajweed!

[namaikaimvputka]

Okay here.. I will mention something which I normally dont.. but just as a wonderful fact.

My teacher, Maulana Mohammad sallamahu is mashAllah a very solid hafiz. and I got this from another of my teachers that Maulana Mohammad has had completed quran in one sitting. Also he recited Surah by Surah backward (going from juz30 to 1), also recited From "minal jinnati wannaas" last Ayah all they way to "Alhamdulillahi.." first Ayah ..the whole quran backward..

I dont know the complete authenticity of it but inshAllah I plan to confirm it..

[Friend_Joe]

Okay here.. I will mention something which I normally dont.. but just as a wonderful fact.

My teacher, Maulana Mohammad sallamahu is mashAllah a very solid hafiz. and I got this from another of my teachers that Maulana Mohammad has had completed quran in one sitting. Also he recited Surah by Surah backward (going from juz30 to 1), also recited From "minal jinnati wannaas" last Ayah all they way to "Alhamdulillahi.." first Ayah ..the whole quran backward..

I dont know the complete authenticity of it but inshAllah I plan to confirm it..

backwards? What do you mean by backwards? I need akhi you to tell me EXCATLY HOW BACKWARDS?? Don't get me wrong akhi, but out there ar emany stories of jinns reading the Qur'an backwards, some sihirbaz uses this strategy to "get close" to shaytaan.

Pls explain what exactly did you mean by "also recited From "minal jinnati wannaas" last Ayah all they way to "Alhamdulillahi.." first Ayah ..the whole quran backward.."?

PS And again I repeat - I'm not saying your shaikh is a shaytaan.

[namaikaimvputka]

Brother if you memorize the quran, you will find out one quality of it.. that the If some hafiz is given a word or an ayah to pinpoint in quran, the strength of it is not understood by identifying the Ayah or the word after the one indicated.. rather the strength is actually if the hafiz can accurately mention the ayah before the indicated ayah.

This is why, many madaris use this strategy of memorizing quran in such a way that if any ayah is given, the hafiz will recite back the ayah before it.

Maulana has done that way of recitation to fortify the quran. Another teacher in our madrassah is mashAllah so sharp that when you give him a word, he not only tells you where and where it comes, rather he will tell you on which juz, page, line and around where in the line. Therafter he will mention some Nahwi Qaidaah regarding that word and then make its connection with another word which has the similar rule and then provide where and where that word comes.. I have been following him in taraweeh for last 3 years now..

These are mere ways of strengthing ones quran..they hold no other significance as in sehr or all

[Friend_Joe]

Brother if you memorize the quran, you will find out one quality of it.. that the If some hafiz is given a word or an ayah to pinpoint in quran, the strength of it is not understood by identifying the Ayah or the word after the one indicated.. rather the strength is actually if the hafiz can accurately mention the ayah before the indicated ayah.

This is why, many madaris use this strategy of memorizing quran in such a way that if any ayah is given, the hafiz will recite back the ayah before it.

Maulana has done that way of recitation to fortify the quran. Another teacher in our madrassah is mashAllah so sharp that when you give him a word, he not only tells you where and where it comes, rather he will tell you on which juz, page, line and around where in the line. Therafter he will mention some Nahwi Qaidaah regarding that word and then make its connection with another word which has the similar rule and then provide where and where that word comes.. I have been following him in taraweeh for last 3 years now..

These are mere ways of strengthing ones quran..they hold no other significance as in sehr or all

Allah blessed some ppl with photographic memory , but Wallahi I still would never dare to read the Qur'an backwards.