[verizon]

Ok then bro, if you can see my posts, then come and ask the Muslims here. You know who you are.

[MasTaBlau]

While I appreciate that some may not want to read this thread if they contain objections against Islam, we also have to help the original poster in her effort to bring her family member into the fold of Islam again.

So maybe if a disclaimer is put in the original post so that people who do not want to read such things are forewarned, we can go ahead and adress whatever concerns there are,

[casinobonuswer]

salaam

why would someone not want objections regarding islaam? thats just silly. we expect jews and christians to be critical and analyse their religions but we dont want to do it ourselfs. islaam is PERFECT if there is any discrepencies its on our behalf. you never know the same objections he may have other non muslims may have and by knowing the answer it will help. those with weak imaan or think they will also becoem murtad reading what your brother says should just stay away from this thread.

also we shouldnt be muslims just because our parents are muslims or dont want to become outcaste we should only be muslims because we are CONVINCED islaam is haqq. although i pray to Allah (swt) he never allows me to go astray but nothing the kuffar or apostates say cane shake my believe. may Allah (swt) guide your bro back to islaam. dont want to open a can of worms but there are 100s of people like him but are too scared to come open with their apostasy and all have simular objections. we need to discuss them so we can explain to them and bring them back to islaam

[boleroman]

I know how mods are like with regards to emails being posted on the forum (and I dont usually post email adds on forums) but since some members dont want to see the brother's issues then I see no other way. I hope the mods can understand the circumstances and make a consideration this time.

Salikah Muslimah, you can drop me a email with his 'issues' on the following address:

[mod edit- no email sharing on main forum]

[klnbgqr]

I guess your iman must be pretty weak to be scared of being in doubt because of a simple thread and what a person has to say about Islam.

maybe his iman is very strong and as a result he is very protective of it.

[Hankie]

also we shouldnt be muslims just because our parents are muslims or dont want to become outcaste we should only be muslims because we are CONVINCED islaam is haqq. although i pray to Allah (swt) he never allows me to go astray but nothing the kuffar or apostates say cane shake my believe. may Allah (swt) guide your bro back to islaam. dont want to open a can of worms but there are 100s of people like him but are too scared to come open with their apostasy and all have simular objections. we need to discuss them so we can explain to them and bring them back to islaam The Muslim has to be convinced of the truth of Islam and he has to be totally convinced about the major matters upon which Islam rests on, such as the absolute necessity of Allah's existence, and that the concept of Allah in Islam is the only possibly correct, while every other religion's ideas about Allah (be they Christianity, Hinduism, Atheism, etc.) are logically impossible.

I do not know what is the specific case in here, but if the person mentioned has become atheist then he should read Mufti Instructor's article. The reason is that for all disbelievers (and for Muslims in doubt) the first thing that should be known is the absolute certainty of Allah's Existence as presented in Islam - the article by Mufti Instructor, with the help of other writings, can be expanded to show how every other ideology about Allah is wrong, since we are calling for the people to believe in Allah, not just "any god". If such is shown to people with certainty and they accept it, then there should be acceptance of Islam right away, since we have eliminated the other religions and ideologies as having any possibility of being correct. However, if such is not the case, then we should move to a study of prophethood and how Muhammad (Salla Allahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) was the true Prophet of Allah.

Insha Allah other members can also expand on this matter, but in synthesis, it should be known that emphasis is to be laid in how Islam differs from other religions in its concept of Allah, before we move to discuss so-called "contradictions in the Qur'an" and so forth.

[foodselfdourileka]

I really tried with him. He asked for the proofs, I tried my best. The argument became hot as well. He mentioned some ahadith that he took very literally. I emotionally challenged him to produce a surah like that in the Qur'an- I told him to go and learn Arabic and do so. At the end of this chat that we had, we both cooled down and he said I haven't proven anything to him and that it has made him more worse. I kept on advising him to pray to the Creator, to just even say "if you exist", I don't think he wants to. He believes Islam has segregated him from society and things like that. We handshook and I managed to al hamdu lillah to ask him to write down his questions and I will forward them to the people of knowledge. I really hope he doesn't turn back. But he has said that after these answers he wants nothing to do with Islam. He doesn't want biased answers either. Later on, I regretted my stupid debate style and went to him and said that my actions do not represent the prophet sallAllahu 'alaihi wa sallam and that I am only human and I am imperfect. He understood al hamdu lillah. Just make du'aa for him, he feels Islam has been the worst time of his life- mainly due to segregation from society. May Allah forgive us all. Ameen.

Apologies if I offend, but I have to say that rejecting a religion due to segregation from society is quite foolish.

Truth stands apart and alone.

Even if there were no Muslims in the world, Islam would still be the truth. We know this because it can't be false.

The Islamic concept of God is the only logically sound one. This isn't hyperbole, it is truth. Name any other religion in the world, and it can be falsified, usually very easily. Islam has never, and can never be falsified, simply because our beliefs are not possibilities, but rather logical necessities.

So we have already proven Islam true.

Our God is the true God. Not because I say so, but because it must be so. There is no other way. Two (or three, or any other plurality) gods can't exist. But, a God must exist.

Our Prophet is the true Final Prophet. Not because I say so, but because it must be so. There is no other way. It is impossible for a human to write one Surah, let alone forge 114 of them.

Now, someone may ask: what about the other religions? The simple answer is that Islam is true without a doubt. Every other religion would have to be proven on its own merits. Which hasn't happened, simply because they have been, on the contrary, falsified many times over.

[Zmniubqr]

Bismillah Al-Rehman Al-Raheem

Assalam-Alaikum Sister:

Sister, you have been given good advice.

May Allah make it easy for you.

But the truth is that the problem is not your brother's mind because the problem is with his heart. Iman (faith) or lack thereof resides in the heart. I have seen a lot of people think that because people present rational arguments against Islam, that that means the persons in those situations needs convincing from the mind. No, that is an incorrect position. While yes, the person needs to be presented rational evidence which you can peruse this thread for, what your brother needs is treatment for the heart because (believe it or not) that is the source of his main objection against Islam.

This is why you need to find a pious Muslim brother who can afford to sit down and simply discuss with your brother his objections or find bayans from this site or other sites from that have previously served as a means of jump-starting people's spiritual engines (while addressing your brother's concerns) and gently persuade your brother to at least give them a try. Sister, what must be changed is your brother's heart and articles and books may or may not open the pathway to that depending on whether the written speech is so conveyed by people who speak from wisdom and knowledge of reality or simply intellectual basis. And the latter kind of speech is not always helpful because its foundation is not completely correct.

I say this to you not only because I used to be one of the people who presumably rationally rejected the Divine but also because I cannot emphasize how much the heart weighs in on such matters.

And truly only Allah knows best.

[Master_B]

Was he not given an Islamic upbringing?

[f6HLLFcw]

Was he not given an Islamic upbringing?

I don't think many people understand what an Islamic upbringing is. People describe just about anything as Islamic.

[Hankie]

Salam Alaykum,

But the truth is that the problem is not your brother's mind because the problem is with his heart. Iman (faith) or lack thereof resides in the heart. I have seen a lot of people think that because people present rational arguments against Islam, that that means the persons in those situations needs convincing from the mind. No, that is an incorrect position. While yes, the person needs to be presented rational evidence which you can peruse this thread for, what your brother needs is treatment for the heart because (believe it or not) that is the source of his main objection against Islam. It is true that most people, as the Qur'an says, will not use their intellects, and rather become something or remain as what they are due to emotional reasons.

For example, Shaykh Abu Adam was asked (http://sunnianswers.wordpress.com/20...rt-to-islam/):
If the proof of Allah’s existence is so simple, then why doesn’t the world convert to Islam? And the response was:

Because obvious proofs do not cause acceptance. You know, I struggled with another version of the proof in “Foundations of the Religion” when I had first converted to Islam. I needed them, because I knew I would be facing a wave of mockery from my own people due to my conversion. I wanted proofs that were based on commonly accepted premises to fight back to show that I was right. I even thought that if I could prove my beliefs logically based on common premises, the whole world would quickly become Muslim, and that is why I was euphoric the first time I learned them. Now I know that humans are far from rational, and the fact that the world didn’t become Muslim was a clear proof for me that no one believes unless Allah has willed it:

“وَاللَّهُ خَلَقَكُمْ وَمَا تَعْمَلُونَ”

Meaning: “Allah created you and what you do.” (As-Saaffaat. 96)

My experience makes it easy to accept that people like Abu Talib or other idolaters like Abu Lahab, knowing the truth by having seen miracles in front of their eyes, still did not accept Islam. It is mentioned in tafsiir books that when this was revealed:

إِنْ هُوَ إِلا ذِكْرٌ لِلْعَالَمِينَ () لِمَنْ شَاءَ مِنْكُمْ أَنْ يَسْتَقِيمَ

Meaning: “Verily this is a warning to the worlds, so the one who wills will take the path of fearing and obeying Allah” (Al-Kawthar, 27-28).

Then the idolaters said, “so it is up to us, if we want, we will.” So Allah revealed:

وَمَا تَشَاءُونَ إِلا أَنْ يَشَاءَ اللَّهُ رَبُّ الْعَالَمِينَ

Meaning: “You do not will anything unless Allah has willed it.”

The first version I learned of this proof used simple math, and I ventured out to present it when challenged about my conversion. The problem was that I had not understood some of the underlying assumptions of that version and a mathematician had a field day with me due to my ignorance. Bruised and beaten, I set out to understand it properly, and to learn how to present it in a way that anybody can understand, and without having complicated ideas in the argument or underlying the argument.

I had my “revenge,” by the Grace of Allah when I faced a hypocrite that used to attend my lessons pretending to be Muslim for marriage purposes. He had a degree in math and physics. One day I announced, “I can prove that Allah exists, and that the Islamic belief in God is correct.” He said mockingly, “O really…, how so?” He was probably expecting an argument based on design, or contingency, and had his arsenal ready. When I explained to him the proof he made an attempt or two to throw me off, but because the argument is simple and clear, it was easy to silence him, by the Grace of Allah. He stood up and said, “I will think about it, I take it as a challenge!” He never came back to my lessons, and avoided me like the plague after that. Subhan Allah, how can someone with a fragment of good in their heart be annoyed by a proof that shows that the Creator exists?

In another quite different instance I was teaching a person who had converted and was taking classes so that he could marry a Muslim girl. Whenever I receive converts I fear they might not be convinced, but just going along to “get the girl,” or some other reason, so if there is time I will present the above proof. One time I had a gentleman with a Master’s Degree in aeronautical engineering from a prestigious university. When I presented the proof he actually started crying, and even explaining it to others. For the most part however, whenever I use it on a non-Muslim I get a nodding, “yes you are right,” and then…. nothing. As if I had told them something very ordinary, that has no implications. That is why I see these proofs mainly as defense systems, not change agents, because most people change only for emotional reasons, not logical reasons. These proofs are important for preventing deviants to affect Muslims by answering their attacks. They are also important to help someone affected by doubts. As for the comment/question:

Was he not given an Islamic upbringing? I personally doubt that such an upbringing is possible in this age, except for a few Muslims, since the world at large is saturated with disbelief and major sins, even in Muslim-majority countries, from the day we are born into this world. In order to undo this, even the born Muslims in most cases have to detoxify themselves from all they have learned, face ostracization from their families and society at large... in short almost convert to Islam anew, since they basically have to go against all of what they have learned up to that time and adopt a radically different way of thinking.

[Edqpdnuu]

The sister is in a very difficult position and no answer given can be apt. There are some situations (I feel) in which only du'a can help. May Allah guide your bro to the truth. WS.

[Hankie]

The sister is in a very difficult position and no answer given can be apt. There are some situations (I feel) in which only du'a can help. May Allah guide your bro to the truth. WS. Off course we will make Dua for her in this difficult situation. Insha Allah things will be made easy for her and her family.

[Hrennilasi]

السلام عليكم,

I've moved the posts from the other thread back here. I think that's better than derailing the Clearest Rational Argument thread. Also, the original poster can feel free to post, I don't think there's any need to delete these weak arguments for fear of creating doubts. If someone is prone to such doubts, they shouldn't be on the internet at all. Or at least stay clear of threads on these subjects.


Regarding the subject.

There are two relevant things to understand. First, the real motivation of the brother. Second, whether what he's saying is rationally sound.


Without knowing him personally, the best I can judge from the statements you've quoted here and the way you describe the situation, the "arguments" he's bringing are not logical proofs on the basis of which he made his mind, rather they are excuses. They are just justifications that he is using in his own mind to justify following his base desires. He did not sit down and logically figure out what was the correct way and follow that, rather, as a result of facing difficulties, pressure, etc., not having access to knowledge and true practice, and thus not experiencing any of the enjoyment of Islam, he got tired and decided to follow the path of least resistance.

The point is, when it was not logical argument that caused him to turn away, logical argument is probably not going to turn him back. The posts by DefendingIslam and others are relevant to this. Rather, what will make a difference is if he sees the true example of the prophetic character and behavior in your life and the life of his family and surroundings. This is what you need to focus on. It's the fact that Islam was just talk and no action that really turned him away, he needs to see Islam in action.

Regarding, the proper upbringing, and that is related to this, it is obviously too late for that aspect to be corrected now. But this should be an eye-opening lesson for all the parents. With respect, I disagree strongly with the respected brother's statement:
I personally doubt that such an upbringing is possible in this age, except for a few Muslims, since the world at large is saturated with disbelief and major sins, even in Muslim-majority countries, from the day we are born into this world. In order to undo this, even the born Muslims in most cases have to detoxify themselves from all they have learned, face ostracization from their families and society at large... in short almost convert to Islam anew, since they basically have to go against all of what they have learned up to that time and adopt a radically different way of thinking. (Actually, I suspect he did not mean it the way I'm taking it) Just for clarification, it's definitely not impossible to raise children in the Muslim fashion, and by that I don't mean some vague, "good", "Muslim" ideas about the goals of upbringing, but rather following the specific guidance in the Shariah on the exact method of bringing up children. These guidances are clear, simple, and applicable and useful in every societal situation.

[Hrennilasi]

Regarding whether what he's saying is rationally sound, then it is clearly not:

1) First he says the proof is for Atheists and not agnostics. Perhaps he is misusing the word agnostic, but an agnostic is someone who neither affirms nor denies the existence of God. That is, they claim that nothing can be known about the existence of God. So the agnostic is also addressed in the proof, since it proves without any room for doubt and with zero possibility of the opposite that a Creator does exist. If a person cannot bring an answer to the proof, they cannot logically be an agnostic.

He says, "I don't deny there might be a God"- this is not enough. The proof does not just disprove this denial, it proves the affirmation. So, if he doesn't have any objections to the proof, he has to say, "I affirm the existence of the necessarily existent". In this case, he will have become a theist.

[hieklyintinee]

I think he still actually believes in a creator, but would prefer not to believe in one because now that he has left Islam he does not want to live his life thinking that a time will come when he will be judged for all that he did. Of course now that he has decided that a God may or may not exist, he has also decided that there are no more rules he has to live his life by. And this brings me onto the actual reason he has left Islam.

You said he doesn't want to be a Muslim, because Islam "segregated" him from society. Clearly all that has happened here is that he has given into his whims and desires. He wants to live life without being attached to any social, moral or economic rules.

The first I would like to ask him is how exactly has Islam segregated him from society?

[verizon]

Jazakum Allahu khair.

You see, what I know is that his friends were not so religious. He also had an atheist friend, but when he was practising he told me that he let go of the bad friends. I also heard that he used to have religious debates with this atheist friend of his, I could see something wrong, but of course I couldn't imagine in my head as to what was going on. I had no idea that he went to the extent of doubting and leaving Islam. When he stopped praying, I thought maybe he is going through some serious weak imaan...he still seemed to love Islam and although we advised him to pray etc, he wouldn't. He was very punctual for salah and prayed them all in the masjid al hamdu lillah. I remember he even had a little plan for Ramadhan, he seemed to be doing good. He went to taraweeh every night and one day that just stopped. Everything stopped. My mum became a bit desperate and kept on telling him to pray. He never told us what happened, my mum once called over his old ustadh to talk to him. He objected and refused to see him- then I heard him use foul langugae against the relgion og Islam and he was so angry...I had never seen him like that before. I noticed and thought to myself, he has probably left Islam. Slowly, slowly it became apparent, he started to reject Allah's attributes of mercy and etc...then I asked him and that's when he confessed.

My mum took it so hardly, she was crying so much. I told her that he isn't a Muslim anymore, but she couldn't take it and I think she refuses to believe that he isn't a Muslim. My brother even does not want her to know as it will break her heart and there will be chaos. So my mother keeps on telling him to pray and all of this is a joke to him now. He has once "prayed" jumu'ah under pressure. He tells me now that he fits into society and that he has friends or the like. He thinks he is more social.

I remember he was very angry that he was probably the only teen in the masjid and that the Muslims in school were not so practising. He wouldn't talk to me about his problems, he would just sit alone. We were kind of tight, he would listen to a lecture and willingly type up the notes for me or explain to me something he learnt from the masjid, just he didn't mention his problems.

My mum is practising al hamdu lillah and my dad isn't so much. My brother was stuck in a way, he says to me now that while he was practising he was far from his father etc. It has been difficult for both us, I felt distance with my father at a point, but I think I am almost over that al hamdu lillah. My mum was very strict and she used to sometimes become very harsh on my brother when he had become irreligious, this probably affected him. My parents' relationship wasn't so strong, they used to confilct so much because of religion. My brother noted this and I jsut grew to be quiet and a little unsocial, later on I found Allah after a long journey, al hamdu lillah. My brother followed me, he became influenced by me and started practising al hamdu lillah. When I wasn't practising I had big dreams to study medicine and my brother looked up to me for that, but now I just want to do this basic degree and settle down inshaa Allah. He thinks religion has made lose my potential, that I was capable of so much and now I am not willing to do that much. He doesn't understand that it is 100% my will and my heart isn't into secular education.

Now because of this issue my parents have started to reconcile, but my brother says to me that now when religious issues are not discussed in the family, we are a happy family. He thinks before we weren;t, due to the religious conflicts.

This is the detail I can provide, jazakum Allahu khairan.

[MasTaBlau]

Basically, it has to be explained to him that you cannot accept or reject a religion based solely on whether it helps you 'intergrate' into society or something so blatantly subjective as that

What he has to do is see whether any of the religions of the world are true i.e. ask for the proofs that Islam is true. Once this is proven to him... end of discussion. If he accepts or not, you've done your job by proving the religion to him. Whether he likes what Islam says or not is in fact, irrelevant... If Allah is telling you that you can't fornicate, then you can't fornicate, whether you like it or not... If He tells you that you can't drink alcohol, you can't drink alcohol, whether you like it or not... It's not a valid excuse something which has been proven to you beyond doubt. It's like someone refusing to believe that George Bush exists, purely because he doesn't like the idea that George Bush actually exists. It doesn't change reality. Its like the mad man who stands in the rain, whilst saying it isn't raining

Hence, get him to understand that first. Once he agrees, prove Islam to him. If you want, just invite him onto this forum and some of the posters could do that for you. If not, once you start proving it, and he puts forward objections, let us know and our brothers and sisters from this forum can answer these objections for you,

We do have some legends on this forum, they'll answer anything,

[Zmniubqr]

Assalam-Alaikum Sister:

Insha-Allah I will respond to you in detail, Sister. There are many issues in your one recent post and I hope members address them with maturity and wisdom Insha-Allah; if someone cannot do that, then I ask the individual to please refrain from participating. And I say this primarily because I do not want this thread to turn into speculation on your family life.

[feannigvogten]

Since your brother has become a murtad,shouldn't your family be planning to kill him?

Are you a muslim? Why are you think to kill if he left the Islam there is nothing about it in Quran if Allah want he will come back into islam. why are you trying to islam more complicated for others none muslims? I hate pakistan fitna peoples.