[thargeagsaf]

What makes you think you will be 'ostracized'? Bro you have heard Sh. Husain's 'Fundamentals of Tasawwuf' series. So you know how much he questioned and pestered his murshid before giving bay'ah. These are valid questions and someone in the know would be making a big mistake in not answering them. You can see we are all clutching at straws here, and you're not getting the answers you want so why don't you go and ask the people who know?

aye,that was a amazing series. really really good. Shaykh is a gem. By the way,still need to get the 'travelouges' book by Hadhrat Shaykh Zulfiqar.

[kneexyFreedly]

aye,that was a amazing series. really really good. Shaykh is a gem. By the way,still need to get the 'travelouges' book by Hadhrat Shaykh Zulfiqar.

Do you understand Urdu? Because the English translation is not brilliant...

[thargeagsaf]

Do you understand Urdu? Because the English translation is not brilliant...

is it 'easy urdu' or really difficult words?

is this copy any good:

http://kitaabun.com/shopping3/produc...oducts_id=2163

[kneexyFreedly]

is it 'easy urdu' or really difficult words?

Don't know - can't read/speak/understand Urdu myself! the English translation is OK and understandaable, just a few words are a bit clumsy and a lot of Arabic words, (eg. nisbah, tawajjuh etc.) have been translated into English phrases, whereas in the Urdu book I think they were kept in Arabic.

Anyway I'm veering offtopic. If you don't want to ask anyone then I'll see if I can My local imam is a mureed of Sh. Zulfiqar and if I get chance to meet him after salah and ask, I will

EDIT: The link you posted is the copy I have got.

[thargeagsaf]

Don't know - can't read/speak/understand Urdu myself! the English translation is OK and understandaable, just a few words are a bit clumsy and a lot of Arabic words, (eg. nisbah, tawajjuh etc.) have been translated into English phrases, whereas in the Urdu book I think they were kept in Arabic.

Anyway I'm veering offtopic. If you don't want to ask anyone then I'll see if I can My local imam is a mureed of Sh. Zulfiqar and if I get chance to meet him after salah and ask, I will

where you based,UK?

listen,if you could address the questions to him,then it would be fantastic. Do you get the gist of what i'm trying to get at with my questions? Its not just names im looking for but the actual method and way in which the companions are linked to the tariqahs.

[kneexyFreedly]

where you based,UK?

Yeah, Le.....

[thargeagsaf]

Yeah, Le.....

Leicester...?

[kneexyFreedly]

Leicester...?

lol yes. sorry I am dragging the thread on really long. You can borrow my copy of the book if you want (I can post it, I think I have your email). And you're sure there's no-one local and friendly you can ask? Any friends who are bay't?

EDIT:
Just saw your edit. I will try and do so . I am bit weary of approaching him out of the blue and asking, seeing as he doesn't know me, but he is friendly and approachable and not afraid to speak about uncomfortable issues, so I will see if I can pucker up the courage soon.

EDIT EDIT:

Let me just confirm, your question is basically that nowadays we have a formal method of bay'ah to a murshid and a pir/mureed relationship. Ijaza of tasawwuf is passed down from peer to mureed in the term of khilafa. But how was tasawwuf passed down in the time of the Sahaba, tabi'een, and shortly thereafter, before the silsilas were formalised? What was the method for presenting ijazah before the system of bay'ah and formalisation/naming of tareeqahs?

[thargeagsaf]

lol yes. sorry I am dragging the thread on really long. You can borrow my copy of the book if you want (I can post it, I think I have your email). And you're sure there's no-one local and friendly you can ask? Any friends who are bay't?

local yes. friendly,no. well not with these questions anyway. People take it like im attacking them or summat whereas is just genuine questions.

If you can get his number, I shall ask him myself. whats his name(email it to me if you don't want to make it public)

you bay't to whom?

[kneexyFreedly]

you bay't to whom?

I'm not bay't yet.. I talk a lot but have a lot of the same questions as you but I do have conviction in the science as it exists today.. I'm looking for a murshid, but theres other issues involved too, and things I need to rectify or get over myself, not to be discussed here and now.

[thargeagsaf]

EDIT EDIT:

Let me just confirm, your question is basically that nowadays we have a formal method of bay'ah to a murshid and a pir/mureed relationship. Ijaza of tasawwuf is passed down from peer to mureed in the term of khilafa. But how was tasawwuf passed down in the time of the Sahaba, tabi'een, and shortly thereafter, before the silsilas were formalised? What was the method for presenting ijazah before the system of bay'ah and formalisation/naming of tareeqahs?

thats one part.

like in the link you posted,salman farsi took from Abu Bakr . now I want to know what this entailed. What exactly did Abu Bakr pass onto Salman farsi etc etc

how did salman farsi pass on to the next person etc

what exactly was passed on?

[kneexyFreedly]

OK bro, I will give it a shot .

And make dua for me too please, that I find a kamil murshid who can do my islah, and that I do not waste time festering, but that I work on my faults until I find and give bay'ah to such a person. .

[flopay]

thats one part.

like in the link you posted,salman farsi took from Abu Bakr . now I want to know what this entailed. What exactly did Abu Bakr pass onto Salman farsi etc etc

how did salman farsi pass on to the next person etc

what exactly was passed on?

From my understanding what was\is passed on, particularly in the earlier parts of the various silsilas, was not necessarily a particular technique but a hal. The techniques changed and varied based on the experience of the various shuyukh as time passed, hence the numerous branches and sub-branches that exists.

[thargeagsaf]

From my understanding what was\is passed on, particularly in the earlier parts of the various silsilas, was not necessarily a particular technique but a hal. The techniques changed and varied based on the experience of the various shuyukh as time passed, hence the numerous branches and sub-branches that exists.

interesting.

but im more interested in the spiritual transfer of say between Abu Bakr and salman Farsi

I get how the silsilas transfered from Hadhrat Khwaja Baha’ud-deen Naqshband to his khalifah etc until the present day, thats not my query. my query is more the spiritual link to the companions and how that transpired.

theres lot's of knowledgable guys here who know the details of tasawwuf. surely someone here can answer this for me.

[flopay]

interesting.

but im more interested in the spiritual transfer of say between Abu Bakr and salman Farsi

That's what I was referring to. It's a transference of states.

[LookSe]

Ok this thread has become really long since the last time I checked. I don't understand what the confusion is - It makes perfect sense to me, alhamdulillah.

I mentioned that in the earlier days, it was simply the effect of Suhbah. This is a fundamental theme of tasawwuf. So the link between Abu Bakr (ra) and Salman (ra) was simply that of Suhbah - i.e. Abu Bakr (ra) and Salman (ra) spent time together. They were both Kamil. And like this, you can work through the chain. Remember the point of tasawwuf is to attain nisbah - and nisbah was attained through companionship. The Sahabah merely had to declare Iman, and they instantly became Sahibun Nisbah through a moments companionship with Rasulullah (saw).

Now, there are obviously differences with the chains of tasawwuf and the chains of hadith. For example, it is a fact that there are breaks/gaps within chains of tasawwuf and this is allowable in the field. Even in chains of hadith there will be breaks, but these will/could be points of weaknesses. For example, the Shafi'is weaken Mursal hadith. But obviously breaks in hadith chains are unacceptable in later generations.

But this all makes sense because Hadith was an exact science and it's preservation was of high priority right from the start. That's why people were VERY careful about who they would narrate from and that they do mention the chain when they narrate.

Whereas Tasawwuf, even though it's preservation was still high priority, it's mode was not the same. For example, in hadith, it is incumbent for the narrator to have a sharp memory. Whereas in Tasawwuf, there doesn't have to be such a criteria - the criteria is being Kamil. So you can't exactly compare the chain of tasawwuf to a chain of Hadith. Sahabah were Sahabah because of their Suhba with Nabi (saw). Tabi'een were Tabi'een because of their Suhbah with Sahabah. And like this people attained perfection through companionship.

Just a point on the gaps in the chains of Tasawwuf - the impression I get is the point of connecting yourself with chains of Tasawwuf is a spiritual exercise. It is merely aligning yourself with awliyaa and pure souls. So even if there is a gap, it is still absolutely possible for a person to have attained wilaayah without having met the person in the chain above - but still aligns himself to that person's Tareeqah (who he hasn't met)

Now, just as fiqh formalised into 4 madhabs over many years, so did Tasawwuf sort of formalise into various turuq. I say sort of because Tasawwuf is a highly highly dynamic field. So the exercises will vary from teacher to teacher, even if they have the same Shaykh. Actually, as far as I'm aware, it is only the Naqshbandis that have a structured set of lessons (but even then the details vary from Shaykh to Shaykh a lot).

So a time came where it was discovered that Suhbah alone was not sufficient to attain nisbah. So the Shaykh would prescribe a particular exercise in order to boost the student in order to allow him to be able to capture the nisbah.

And this is where you can appreciate different Tareeqahs. So some Mashayikh emphasised crushing the nafs through fasting. Others emphasised large amounts of nafl Ibadat etc etc. They all had the same goal - which was to raise the student to the level of being capable of capturing the Nisbah.

These practices then formalised into Tareeqahs. So in the end, the only thing that changed was the mode of attaining nisbah - the goal was still the same.

There's a story, if I remember correctly: Shah Waliyullah (ra)'s father, or maybe Shah Waliyullah (ra) himself, used to get regular visions of Husain (ra). So once he asked Husain (ra) whether the Nisbah present today was any different to the Nisbah of the Sahabah? And so he went into Muraqabah and Husain (ra) said there was no difference.

Likewise, I know Hadhrat Zulfiqar (db) mentioned something to the effect: "A person can complete his Sulook in one sitting, if only he came with his glass upright so I can pour into it". Basically all this means is - if a mureed comes ready and prepared for the Nisbah, then he will attain it in an instant. The point of the Muraqabaat and adhkaar is simply to ready the heart to be ready for Nisbah - that's all.

Ok bro I wrote a lot I hope it answers your questions and that it's free from mistakes. Allahu a'lam

[LookSe]

Sorry just another thought came to my mind. The gaps in tasawwuf chains being acceptable can also be likened to the field of fiqh. A person can be an excellent Faqeeh of a particular school even if the individual's contemporaries are not great fuqaha, nor do they align themselves to the same school of fiqh.. likewise an individual can attain perfection and align oneself to a tareeqah. At the same time though, the chains actually came later so it's also very possible that the people within the chain had absolutely no idea they would be included in a chain. Like surely Abu Bakr (ra) didn't think so many years down the line a group of Sufis would attribute their path to him...

[gettoblaster]

From my understanding what was\is passed on, particularly in the earlier parts of the various silsilas, was not necessarily a particular technique but a hal. The techniques changed and varied based on the experience of the various shuyukh as time passed, hence the numerous branches and sub-branches that exists.

Wonderful, You are right on the point.