[Njxatsbf]

Assalamu alaykum

I went to Istanbul recently and noticed a few things. Could someone shed some light on these?


Most, if not all the imams in the masjids didn't have beards. They all dressed the same (same type of red hat with white band) and were very stern-looking. The overall effect of having no beard, pale skin and an angry look was quite disconcerting to me. Bit of a leap of logic here, but I assumed that all these beardless imams might be 'government' imams from the same 'approved' darul uloom. At times, there were other imams (in the same masjids) who had big beards and departed from the 'uniform'. I assume these were not the regular imams but maybe just laypeople.

I can't believe that Hanafi imams would have no beard whatsoever. This is why I'm thinking that these imams might have come through some sort of government-sponsored educational system that has some strange teachings.


Another thing I noticed is that, during jama'ah, the mu'adhin would often pray separately from everyone else - on his own at the back of the room! Why does this happen?

Other times, I noticed a group of people would be at the back during jama'ah - I assume the mu'adhin was praying with this group, which is better than being on his own I guess.


The last thing I noticed is that a couple of times (in two different masjids), the imam said the takbir tahrimah even before the mu'adhin had finished the iqamah; he would say it right in the middle of the last "la ilaha illallah". This was confusing for the women if they couldn't see the imam and the rest of the congregation, as the takbir would be lost in the iqamah.


I found all these things strange and puzzling. Is there any explanation?

[kucheravka]

I visit istanbul frequently, and its sad to see so many, especially amongst the A'immah, without a beard! Many claim to follow the Hanafi school, and as we all know, the position of the Hanafi school regarding the beard is very strict: according to the Ahnaaf, to shorten the beard less than a FIST LENGTH is Haraam and on this is IJMA' (concensus of opinion). It states in Durr al-Mukhtar: To trim the beard when it is less than a fist’s length, as done by some modern people and hermaphrodites is not permissible in the opinion of all the jurists. To shave the beard as done by unorthodox Jews, Hindus and others is also not permissible. And the Imamat (leadership) of a person who shaves or trims his beard is makrooh-e-tahrimi (severely disliked), although the prayer behind such a person will be valid.

Regarding the last point you mentioned: Imam Muhammad (ra) narrated from Ibraheem an-Nakha'i (ra): "When the Mu'adhdhin says 'Hayya alal-falaah' then the people should stand and make lines. When the Mu'adhdhin sayss 'Qad Qaaamatis-Salaah' then the Imam should say the Takbeer." He adds: "This is the opinion of Imam Abu Hanifa (ra) and we adhere to it; and if the Imam waits until the Mu'adhdhin finishes the Iqaamah, and then says the Takbeer, there is no harm in it either. All this is fine." (Abu Hanifah, K. al-athar 21)

As for the Mu'adhdhin praying seperately, personally I haven't seen this before. No idea where they got that concept from.

[PetrZimin]

I can address some of your questions as I have already done in different occasions on SF.

Regarding the beard
This is one of the Islamic traditions being wiped out from the land since 1924. From this date on, not only beard but also face-veil, jubbah, imamah were wiped out from the brains and minds of people. Muslims undergone severe mass-conditioning regarding all of these issues. By the fall of Khilafah and during the re-construction of modern Turkey, new heinous laws were established so to ban dress style and outlook of the people. Many many thousands of people were shot to death, hung or brutally killed just for not following those orders. Not only that, but reading Adhan out loud in Arabic was strictly prohibited. Layman and the scholars are subjected to severe trials and tribulations...

Later on Adhan was restored to its original proper Arabic, however, beard till this day was banned in official places, such as military service, yet military service made obligatory. There was no choice other than two: either grow beard till one goes to military service, then be subjected to humiliation and indignity by being forced to shave it.

These all are started by by first ruling party, but then continued severely by godless mafia called "Ergenekon". These are the enemies of Allah who are mostly come from non-Turkish origin. They overthrew ruling government whenever they saw some sort of "Islamization". During these overthrowing scholars with beard, scholars with Sunnah dress were hung for no reason. Beard and all Islamic traditions were mocked and demonized publicly, even in schools... They invented a method to "control" religion and the practice of Muslims, by introducing official government dependent religious affairs authority called "Diyanet". In almost all mosques throughout Turkey, same Khutbas are preached. These khutbas are prepared by appointed scholars in Diyanet. Imams, are government employees that are being paid by government. Instead of Madrasah, these Imams are mostly University graduates from faculty called "Ilahiyat" where they get to learn modern Arabic, fiqh, tafsir etc within 4 years.

Having seen these brutal torments, the scholars of late Ottoman and modern Turkey, adopted the Shafi'i ruling regarding the beard - that's being Sunnah. Not only that, but also ongoing severe situation is considered as "Karahah" under which certain things can be allowed. Till this day, they continue this adoption because the ban is still there, perhaps this will continue until those barbaric bans are totally lifted.

As you see there is sad history behind all of these that needs to be studied well in order to understand state of our fellow Muslim Turkish brothers.

Regarding the weird behavior of Muazzin
It is not a big deal. They do it to recite some Dua after prayer with a microphone which is located just there. So, if you provide them with a wireless lapel mic, then I think they might join in the first raw.

[metropropuskruww]

Mufti Abdur-Rahman [HA] said something very thought-provoking, namely just as we feel uncomfortable praying behind beard-less Imams, others might feel also uncomfortable praying behind paan-eating Molvis. (Also one could argue that the Molvi will not eat paan during the prayers, but the Imam will still be beard-less during the prayer. Wallahu 'Alam.)

And about when to stand up for Salah during Iqamah has been clarified on Deoband.org. It as well clears why Turkish brothers do it their way.

[Cyclicymn]

Another thing I noticed is that, during jama'ah, the mu'adhin would often pray separately from everyone else - on his own at the back of the room! Why does this happen?

Other times, I noticed a group of people would be at the back during jama'ah - I assume the mu'adhin was praying with this group, which is better than being on his own I guess.

is that even allowed? to have your own jamaat or pray on your own when the main jamaat is going on?

[PetrZimin]

is that even allowed? to have your own jamaat or pray on your own when the main jamaat is going on?

They don't pray on their own as different jamaah, rather they follow the Imam in their prayer but way behind the main jamaah. The issue is about their "location" where muazzin finds it easy to access to a mic in order to recite durud/or dua out loud. Like I said, little extra cash will solve the need - if there is any.

[AnetTeilor]

i also had the same query as the op when i was there couple of years back, but i asked the local brothers in the istanbul markaz and they gave a similer reply to yours brother verdana.

[JTS_tv]

bro verdana for clarifying these thing

[mvjvz]

Last year I had a chance to visit Turkey as well...
The position at Masjids was more or less same as narrated above ...
Inside the entrance of Blue Masjid ( SUltan Ahmad ) the table which has the donation box had figurines of a witch ( quite prominent) on all sides which I assume is that of Medussa.
BUt anothe good thing is that in many of the masjids after Namaz the Imam reads Asma ul Husna in beautiful way .

[OShellszz]

Verdana,
Pir Zulfiqar Ahmed Naqshbandi (DB) has mentioned, in a travelogue, the presence of some Turkish appointed religious guards in some of the Central Asian countries who'll sort of monitor that secularized Islam is practiced there. Do you have some perspective on that?
Wassalam

[IssuessBratte]

Pir Zulfiqar Ahmed Naqshbandi (DB) has mentioned, in a travelogue, the presence of some Turkish appointed religious guards in some of the Central Asian countries who'll sort of monitor that secularized Islam is practiced there. Do you have some perspective on that?
Wassalam Salam

i'm, reading that book right now i find it highly humorous that almost every where shaykh goes in uzbekistan he encounters these "modern clean shaven turkish scholars" who look at him with distrust almost like an antagonist in novel ...jk.

i was also in istanbul a year ago and was very astonished when the takbeer was done before the iqamah was over, but then read in nur ul idda that that was in accordance with the hanafi madhab as many others have already pointed out.

on my last night there i went to sultan ahmet cami for maghrib and this one guy waved me to come and sit by him and immediately started conversing with me. i had a good discussion with him, but his English wasn't the greatest which made it a little difficult. the first thing he asked me was where are you from, then whats the longest surah in the quran, then what surah comes after that surah? it was actually kind of strange that before knowing anything about me this was the first thing he asked me.

one thing he told me was that istanbul contained 3000 mosques br. Verdana can you confirm this? it is possible that i may have misunderstood him as his English wasn't great.

he also invited me to stay for isha and "zikr" after isha. does anyone one know exactly what type of zikr goes on?

i had to leave as i was with my sisters who were worried about getting back to the hotel before dark (which was some distance away) so i never witnessed or participated in it, but i was very curious about the zikr.

[PetrZimin]

Verdana,
Pir Zulfiqar Ahmed Naqshbandi (DB) has mentioned, in a travelogue, the presence of some Turkish appointed religious guards in some of the Central Asian countries who'll sort of monitor that secularized Islam is practiced there. Do you have some perspective on that?
Wassalam

I read his book on that travel. Don't remember where he mentions as such, however, I can attest that Turkish appointed religious Imams, are for nothing but good ever there. I've been in my countries in Central Asia, met with such Imams. All I found about them nothing but goodness, sincerity, and strong effort to uplift the spirit of Muslims and bring them back towards religion.

I saw many children and their families started practicing traditional Islam in the hands of these few Turkish Imams. Many people, even some entire villages were mostly guided by Allah, in the hands these few and by their sincere efforts.

Being Turkish appointed doesn't mean to stick to secularism. No, no. These Imams are God-fearing people and they know what they are doing. Besides, mostly they are coming from rooted traditions such some orders of naqshi, qadiri, shazali or from the nur jamaat.

I think the guy who was in the gathering with Shaikh Zulfiqar, was an ignorant Turkish student, or some kind of a spy I assume. Or best bet, he was Kemalist activist staying in that country. Yeah, I think that's the case. The reason for this assumption is that, in Istanbul I went to this Waqf of Ataturk. They told me about their mission in Central Asia, that they are trying to spread some cultural thing in there. They might be appointed by government too, but I think not for religious purpose.

Even here in US where I live, there are two groups of people; kemalists and others. Kemalists are extremely easy to recognize from the way they dress - in an ultra modernized (!) way. You may guess what I am saying.

Hope that helps.

[OShellszz]

on my last night there i went to sultan ahmet cami for maghrib and this one guy waved me to come and sit by him and immediately started conversing with me. i had a good discussion with him, but his English wasn't the greatest which made it a little difficult. the first thing he asked me was where are you from, then whats the longest surah in the quran, then what surah comes after that surah? it was actually kind of strange that before knowing anything about me this was the first thing he asked me.

That perhaps was his way of putting you at ease. And for your perspective.

Verdana,

This clarified a few things.

About kemalism. I have this hang over about Dawah. We are duty bound to communicate every Ayah we know and to invite people to Islam. India, China, Europe, Africa and the two Americas are obvious big chunks of human population to whom we have not delivered their right. Islam is their right because that is the key in the hereafter for no other religion is acceptable to Allah Almighty. Fourteen hundred years after beloved Prophet (PBUH) there has been no lack of engagement of Muslims with the rest. There has been big time military history. There has been big focus on art, architecture, science (Spain, not now) and what you have. Dawah has been a weak point. It is not completely missing but nevertheless it is the weakest point in our history in the sense of ignoring it. This is the front on which Turkey gets stuck in the mind. Being so close to Europe, being part of it, it could be the main stay of presentation of Islam to the west. In place of that majority of our brothers are trying to adopt the western-everything. Am I western enough seems to be the greatest worry.

Wassalam

[Cyclicymn]

im not looking for a fight here but isnt praying away from the main jamaat to be close to a mic kind of strange and wrong? especially for something that is a bidah? am i right in thinking that the loud zikr the muezzin does after salaat has no basis in the sunnah?

[angelxmagic]

[QUOTE=xs11ax;604560]

im not looking for a fight here but isnt praying away from the main jamaat to be close to a mic kind of strange and wrong? especially for something that is a bidah? am i right in thinking that the loud zikr the muezzin does after salaat has no basis in the sunnah?[/QUOTE]

Slm,

You will find this in Shawafee dominated masjid also (in SA), not too sure about other localities.

[soonahonsefalh]

Regarding the weird behavior of Muazzin
It is not a big deal. They do it to recite some Dua after prayer with a microphone which is located just there. So, if you provide them with a wireless lapel mic, then I think they might join in the first raw.

Often the mic is not used in Turkish mosques (such as in Mili Gorush mosques, which are far more better than the Diynaet mosques) when it is a small gathering, so the argument of the mic is invalid. Sometimes they will join the first row and perform the loud du'a in the first row.

They are also mics present in the first row (if the Imam can have a mic, it is easily to connect another one).

The practice of 3 people with the mu'adhin staying behind with a gap of sometimes 10 rows has no basis in Hanafi fiqh. If you have any sources that tell us otherwise, please post them.

[PymnImmen]

well the muadhdhin of Haramain also sit separately. In Masjid Nabawi, they sit on top of Raudhah with some people.

[jurhoonee]

السلام عليكم,

Brothers, please refrain from making strong statements. The entire Islam is not contained in just whatever we may have read or seen. I remember one brother from Bosnia in our town who gave the adhan turning in a 360º circle, that is with each phrase he would turn a few degrees to his right until he came all the way around in a circle. There was a big fuss made, and he was treated as if he was an ignorant fool, and he was just saying that that is what he has seen in his country. Afterwards someone looked in hedaaya, and lo-and-behold, it mentions that way of giving adhan when calling from a minaret.

The point is, don't start jumping at calling stuff bid'ah and haraam and looking down on others because we lay-people happen to have not heard of something. There are many different rulings for different situations.

[DevaRextusidis]

I read his book on that travel. Don't remember where he mentions as such, however, I can attest that Turkish appointed religious Imams, are for nothing but good ever there. I've been in my countries in Central Asia, met with such Imams. All I found about them nothing but goodness, sincerity, and strong effort to uplift the spirit of Muslims and bring them back towards religion.

I saw many children and their families started practicing traditional Islam in the hands of these few Turkish Imams. Many people, even some entire villages were mostly guided by Allah, in the hands these few and by their sincere efforts.

Being Turkish appointed doesn't mean to stick to secularism. No, no. These Imams are God-fearing people and they know what they are doing. Besides, mostly they are coming from rooted traditions such some orders of naqshi, qadiri, shazali or from the nur jamaat.

I think the guy who was in the gathering with Shaikh Zulfiqar, was an ignorant Turkish student, or some kind of a spy I assume. Or best bet, he was Kemalist activist staying in that country. Yeah, I think that's the case. The reason for this assumption is that, in Istanbul I went to this Waqf of Ataturk. They told me about their mission in Central Asia, that they are trying to spread some cultural thing in there. They might be appointed by government too, but I think not for religious purpose.

Even here in US where I live, there are two groups of people; kemalists and others. Kemalists are extremely easy to recognize from the way they dress - in an ultra modernized (!) way. You may guess what I am saying.

Hope that helps.

We were in a Turkish Mosque in Germany and the Imam didn't have a Beard but he is the nicest person you could ever see.

We asked for some Tajeed Lessons and he tested us and gave us some tips. The next day he took his Turban off and put it on my head and asked me to lead the Salah and wanted to pray behind me.

I put the Turban back on his head and prayed behind him.

Not every Turkish Imam is evil, I 100% agree. I have met good Imams in Turkey and elsewhere, Masha'Allah.

I prefer Turks over Saudees anyday of the week.

[WeissVine]

We were in a Turkish Mosque in Germany and the Imam didn't have a Beard but he is the nicest person you could ever see.

We asked for some Tajeed Lessons and he tested us and gave us some tips. The next day he took his Turban off and put it on my head and asked me to lead the Salah and wanted to pray behind me.

I put the Turban back on his head and prayed behind him.

Not every Turkish Imam is evil, I 100% agree. I have met good Imams in Turkey and elsewhere, Masha'Allah.

I prefer Turks over Saudees anyday of the week.

Your last statement is a very bold one