[alexbookhyip]

since this ruling was given in opposition, at least more people can have himmah to demand that we have real, competely Islamic financial systems, and not just loopholes in the existing haraam system to somehow squeeze them into "shariah-compliance."

brother meelash

I can't explain my grief at reading your words. What you are trying to say is that someone dealing with a bank certified by Faqih ul asar Mufti Taqi Usmani sahib is actually dealing with "just loopholes in the existing haraam system to somehow squeeze them into "shariah-compliance".

Please fear Allah before writing such stuff. This is buhtaan brother.

Please do correct me if I read it wrong.

[SashaLionx]

As-salamu alaikum,

Two of my teachers, both of whom studied under the Usmani brothers (rh) stated thats its improper for students of knowledge to interfere in matters of their teachers when there are differences of opinion between them and others. Rather, they should remain silent and continue with their studies unless their teacher requests they get involved.

wassalam

[jurhoonee]

brother meelash

I can't explain my grief at reading your words. What you are trying to say is that someone dealing with a bank certified by Faqih ul asar Mufti Taqi Usmani sahib is actually dealing with "just loopholes in the existing haraam system to somehow squeeze them into "shariah-compliance".

Please fear Allah before writing such stuff. This is buhtaan brother.

Please do correct me if I read it wrong.

Even the certified banks are operating within a larger financial framework that is based on haraam and not Islamic either in goals, spirit, or practice. Regardless of whether an individual's particular transaction contains haraam or not, the fact remains it is supporting the larger, haraam status quo that is bringing oppression and harm to people around the world.

This is what I meant, and I believe this is agreed upon by all the scholars, Mufti Taqi Usmani included. Mufti Taqi's fataawa are written with the purpose of showing people how they can deal with the existing system, but I don't think he's ever said he wouldn't prefer a top-to-bottom Islamic system.

[jurhoonee]

I am sure (based on reading different articles etc.) that if Mufti Taqi wants he can issue a fatwa with a lot more muftis signing it.

Does everyone feel that this is true? I'm not asking to be sarcastic, I'm actually curious and I don't have any feel at all for whether this is the case or not, even in Pakistan.

From what I've seen, especially if respected 'ulama of India, South Africa are taken into account I wouldn't have thought this true.

[alexbookhyip]

Even the certified banks are operating within a larger financial framework that is based on haraam and not Islamic either in goals, spirit, or practice. Regardless of whether an individual's particular transaction contains haraam or not, the fact remains it is supporting the larger, haraam status quo that is bringing oppression and harm to people around the world.

This is what I meant, and I believe this is agreed upon by all the scholars, Mufti Taqi Usmani included. Mufti Taqi's fataawa are written with the purpose of showing people how they can deal with the existing system, but I don't think he's ever said he wouldn't prefer a top-to-bottom Islamic system.

I highly suggest you read the jawab-e-fatwa by Mufti saheb db. He touches on this issue of dealing with the greater framework. Your statement is not true to the extent you think it is.

http://www.deeneislam.com/ur/misc/BO...rateMustaqeem/

Hopefully you can read Urdu.

And we have to start somewhere, right? Ofcourse a complete top-down system is better but tell me who is establishing it? Give me some names and examples of concrete efforts in this regard. Mufti saheb never stopped anyone from coming up with a complete framework infact his effort is in that direction, which he has made very clear many times.

My bigger worry is the jumood in many of our ulema (once again not trying to say that Mufti saheb db is the only exception, there are others too but definitely in the minority). They will write long papers on issues that have been settled many years back (and that the jahils like the salafiyyah raise every now and then) but they won't try to research how to solve modern problems through appropriate application of deen. Financial system being one of them.

And remember an easier fatwa does not mean you doubt the sincerity or the capability of the faqih. Otherwise you will start blaming our mujtahid Imams too. If in a particular matter Imam Shafii gave an apparently easier to follow fatwa, start accusing him of trying to find loopholes.....

[jurhoonee]

Jazaakallah for that link.

The problem I see is that if everyone went along with Mufti Taqi Usmani's fataawa on this matter, then what incentive would there ever be, EVER in the future for anyone to create a proper "top-down" Islamic system. That's why I feel if dispensations are going to be given for people with a genuine need to "solve modern problems", then they should be given on an individual basis instead of creating entire banking institutions that are just "sharia-compliant" fronts for the whole system in the back.

Anyway, I think my choice of the word "loophole" is what disturbed you, and made it seem like it might be casting aspersions on Mufti Saheb. Definitely that was not my intention, I just want to point out that there is a bigger problem, and this permissibility makes it easy for that bigger problem to be completely masked, and then there will never be any effort in the future to solve that. If someone comes along with a completely Islamic system, there'll be no market because everyone will be in "shariah-compliant" schemes.

[kilibry]

I highly suggest you read the jawab-e-fatwa by Mufti saheb db. He touches on this issue of dealing with the greater framework. Your statement is not true to the extent you think it is.

http://www.deeneislam.com/ur/misc/BO...rateMustaqeem/

Hopefully you can read Urdu.

And we have to start somewhere, right? Ofcourse a complete top-down system is better but tell me who is establishing it? Give me some names and examples of concrete efforts in this regard. Mufti saheb never stopped anyone from coming up with a complete framework infact his effort is in that direction, which he has made very clear many times.

My bigger worry is the jumood in many of our ulema (once again not trying to say that Mufti saheb db is the only exception, there are others too but definitely in the minority). They will write long papers on issues that have been settled many years back (and that the jahils like the salafiyyah raise every now and then) but they won't try to research how to solve modern problems through appropriate application of deen. Financial system being one of them.

And remember an easier fatwa does not mean you doubt the sincerity or the capability of the faqih. Otherwise you will start blaming our mujtahid Imams too. If in a particular matter Imam Shafii gave an apparently easier to follow fatwa, start accusing him of trying to find loopholes.....

Assalamu alaikum brother,
since you are in canada you probably know ansaar housing. Their structure is approved by Mufti Taqi saheb many years ago in the 1980s and from what I can tell it is very legitimate compared to Guidance, LaRiba, UM, etc.

[MADwanker]

Walikum-us-salam brother.

Since i have witnessed this issue very closely, i would try to answer your questions.

This is an honest question on my part. I have tried my best to search an answer but couldn't find it. I still maintain husn-e-dhan though.

Did the ulema on Maulana Saleemullah Khan db's side try to reconcile with Hazrat Maulana Mufti Taqi Usmani sahib sb's side?

I have tried to read different documents that were made available and it just seems (based on my limited knowledge) that they didn't make an effort to reach out properly.

The above is exactly the reason why we are mad. There were absolutely NO efforts from the ulema on Maulana Saleemullah Khan to reconcile.

There is a lobby which is working against Mufti Taqi Usmani. Since Mufti Sahab is a very respected and loved figure, that does not go well with many people. Therefore, a poisoning campaign was started against Mufti Sahab, and Islamic Banking was made as an excuse. Unfortunately, many of the senior ulema who were very sincere and honest, were also caught in all this.

Anyways, the ulema on the side of Maulana Saleemullah Khan Sahab gathered and prepared a fatwa against Islamic Banking. And no one from DUK was approached during all this! When they had prepared a draft, at the very last moment, Mufti Taqi Sahab was called. When Mufti Sahab went there, Maulana Saleemullah Khan told him that we have prepared a fatwa, and we want you to hear it. And then Maulana Saleemullah Khan read out the fatwa. Mufti Taqi was shocked. He asked that he should be allowed to answer, and he was told that "We are not here to discuss. I have to go to the Airport. We just wanted to tell you that Islamic banking is haraam". And Mufti Taqi was left speechless, and embarrassed infront of all of those ulema.

I have the original copy of the fatwa. It even uses some disrespectful remarks against Mufti Sahab. For example it says that "Aap apnay app ko mian mithu samajhtay hain, aur kissi ki baat nahin suntay", and "Ajj kull tau Molvi bank kay advisor bunn gaey hain" etc and many more personal insults.

Maulana Saleemullah Khan db has clearly indicated that ifta is not his field and he doesn't really what happened. I wonder what prompted Hazrat to lead this effort then.

Exactly, and that's why i said in my first post that this is indeed a very dark and gloomy period for Deobandi ulema. A conspiracy was initiated, for the akabireen ulema to fight with each other. And Maulana Saleemullah Khan was used for all this. I have much more details, but i can't write all over here.

Overall as brothers have said many times this whole episode was very sad. Not only did the ulema of Deoband loose credibility but became laughing stock too....
I am sure and we all know that there could have been better ways to get this sorted out especially when Mufti sahib db has said so many times that if proven to him he does not mind making ruju on his positions at all.

Exactly! You can't even imagine the remarks which have been passed by the laymen. In all honesty, if there was a problem with Islamic Banking, then there should have been a healthy discussion between the ulema. Questions should have been asked from Mufti Taqi Usmani. If Mufti Sahab would have failed to answer the questions, only then this matter should have been brought in front of the public. Instead of this, a fatwa was imposed on DUK.

Mufti Taqi Sahab has said this so many times, that the Islamic Banking needs a lot of more reforms, and he is open to correction anytime. Mufti Taqi Sahab was even accused of taking money from AlMeezan Bank to give fatwas!! Can you believe that??

And this has left the awaan in a disarray. I know so many people, who were involved in interest, and then when Islamic Baking was introduced, they shifted their deposits to Islamic Banks. I myself convinced a lot of my family members to invest in Islamic Banks instead of investing in interest and harraam. All of those people have now gone against DUK and the senior ulema.

The darul-ifta at my madressah has done heavy research on Islamic Finance in collaboration with DUK, and i have been a part of that all along. I can tell you that we issued fatwas in thousands on Islamic banking. Now imagine, what would be the views and replies that we would be getting from all across the world.

The deobandi ulema have become a laughing stock!

[MADwanker]

Brother, why are you exaggerating?

Assalam Alaikum dear brother.

Please try to understand, that I have enormous respect for Mufti Zar Wali. He has issued a lot of fatwas, which are against jamhoor ulema, but me or anyone else has never mentioned those. This time, the honesty and sincerety of DUK and Mufti Taqi Usmani was at stake, and that's why i said what i said.

If i have hurt your feelings, or any brothers', then i am extremely sorry. Please know, that i have given my life to Ilm and madressah, and ulema are my spiritual fathers and my mentors.

It really hurts, when a person accuses me of being disrespectful and disgraceful. From barelwees to salafies, tableeghes to sufis, jamaat-e-islami to doctor israr, i have respect for all. You can see my posts, when i go around reconciling between all of these. Anyone who is serving the deen of Allah is my mentor!

With this, i close my case ..

[kilibry]

Assalamu alaikum,

We have some serious objections to the the structure of Guidance Financial which is approved by Mufti Taqi saheb. How should we forward our objections to him so that he can answer them?

Secondly, I believe the era of the akabireen and the ulema of Deoband may be coming to an end. This might the very last generation. Within 10-20 years it might be gone. After Mufti Taqi Usmani saheb, Moulana Hakeem Akhtar, Shaykh Zulfiqar and some other senior ulema are gone then thats the end.

[Ehlgamxf]

Assalamu alaikum,

.

Mufti sahib db's response to these allegations here /

[Ifroham4]

Assalam o alaykum,

I have heard Mufti Zar Wali Khan praising Mufti Muhammad Taqi Usmani on many occasions. He has recommended his books as well. When asked about good books on taqlid, he replied that the book by Mufti Taqi Usmani and Allamah Sarfaraz Khan Safdar (may Allah have mercy on him).

As far as the issue of Islamic Banking, then jamhur of Ulama Deoband disagree with Dar al-Ulum Karachi on this matter and Mufti Zar Wali Khan is not alone in this.

Mufti Zar Wali Khan himself mentions that some people find my attitude harsh but in reality many of the Ulama have gone soft. That is why people are not used to this tone and they might find it harsh.

As salaam alaikum wa rahmatullah,

Thats kind of ironic, in 2005 I met with a friend of mine who started his studies at Darul Uloom in 1996, he is a German convert who was the adopted son of Shaykhul Hadeeth Maulana Saihbaan (rahimahullah), to my surprisement he was completing his studies at Jamia Ahsanul Uloom. I asked him why he had changed Madrasah, and he answered by saying that Mufti Zar Wali Khan speaks the truth even though it may be hard for the people to accept. (or something similar to that)

[metropropuskruww]

Can anyone please tell me in an unbiased way what the differences are about? Keep in mind I know nothing about Islamic Finance.

[alexbookhyip]

Walikum-us-salam brother.

Since i have witnessed this issue very closely, i would try to answer your questions.



The above is exactly the reason why we are mad. There were absolutely NO efforts from the ulema on Maulana Saleemullah Khan to reconcile.

There is a lobby which is working against Mufti Taqi Usmani. Since Mufti Sahab is a very respected and loved figure, that does not go well with many people. Therefore, a poisoning campaign was started against Mufti Sahab, and Islamic Banking was made as an excuse. Unfortunately, many of the senior ulema who were very sincere and honest, were also caught in all this.

Anyways, the ulema on the side of Maulana Saleemullah Khan Sahab gathered and prepared a fatwa against Islamic Banking. And no one from DUK was approached during all this! When they had prepared a draft, at the very last moment, Mufti Taqi Sahab was called. When Mufti Sahab went there, Maulana Saleemullah Khan told him that we have prepared a fatwa, and we want you to hear it. And then Maulana Saleemullah Khan read out the fatwa. Mufti Taqi was shocked. He asked that he should be allowed to answer, and he was told that "We are not here to discuss. I have to go to the Airport. We just wanted to tell you that Islamic banking is haraam". And Mufti Taqi was left speechless, and embarrassed infront of all of those ulema.

I have the original copy of the fatwa. It even uses some disrespectful remarks against Mufti Sahab. For example it says that "Aap apnay app ko mian mithu samajhtay hain, aur kissi ki baat nahin suntay", and "Ajj kull tau Molvi bank kay advisor bunn gaey hain" etc and many more personal insults.



Exactly, and that's why i said in my first post that this is indeed a very dark and gloomy period for Deobandi ulema. A conspiracy was initiated, for the akabireen ulema to fight with each other. And Maulana Saleemullah Khan was used for all this. I have much more details, but i can't write all over here.



Exactly! You can't even imagine the remarks which have been passed by the laymen. In all honesty, if there was a problem with Islamic Banking, then there should have been a healthy discussion between the ulema. Questions should have been asked from Mufti Taqi Usmani. If Mufti Sahab would have failed to answer the questions, only then this matter should have been brought in front of the public. Instead of this, a fatwa was imposed on DUK.

Mufti Taqi Sahab has said this so many times, that the Islamic Banking needs a lot of more reforms, and he is open to correction anytime. Mufti Taqi Sahab was even accused of taking money from AlMeezan Bank to give fatwas!! Can you believe that??

And this has left the awaan in a disarray. I know so many people, who were involved in interest, and then when Islamic Baking was introduced, they shifted their deposits to Islamic Banks. I myself convinced a lot of my family members to invest in Islamic Banks instead of investing in interest and harraam. All of those people have now gone against DUK and the senior ulema.

The darul-ifta at my madressah has done heavy research on Islamic Finance in collaboration with DUK, and i have been a part of that all along. I can tell you that we issued fatwas in thousands on Islamic banking. Now imagine, what would be the views and replies that we would be getting from all across the world.

The deobandi ulema have become a laughing stock!

JAK respected brother for your comments. Its good that some people still have the audacity to remain objective. Its easy to get carried away in the plethora of confusion that has been created, just like what happens when you watch Fox News for a long time.

You are right it clearly seems like a conspiracy against the ahl-e-haq ulema. Its deepers than just Islamic Finance or TV...
Divide and Conquer.....

Just attack the famous ones like Shaykh Taqi saheb db or Maulana Tariq Jamil saheb db. It will only serve to further alienate the ulema especially from our educated classes. They will continue to remain encroached in the shackles of the modernists.
There are definitely some sincere ones being used.

Just one appeal to my brothers here.

Please make dua to Allah SWT that if the ulema of deoband are on haq then preserve their sanctity and spread their message and save them from internal divide.

Wsalam,
A well wisher for ulema of deoband

[alexbookhyip]

[alexbookhyip]

For those of you who for some weird reason still think that "muttafiqa group" was justified in their approach.
Many other top ulema outside of DUK are very upset (please read my previous post too).

Following is a letter of Hazrat Maulana Sufi Sarwar (The Shaykh ul Hadith of Jamia Ashrafiya Lahore)

http://www.deeneislam.com/ur/verti/j...le.php?CID=373

[jurhoonee]

JAK respected brother for your comments. Its good that some people still have the audacity to remain objective.

His post was not objective. I mean, he only pointed out all the points on one side of the disagreement, and none of the points of the other side. I'm not saying he's necessarily wrong but that's not objective.

Just saying...

[metropropuskruww]

Mufti sahib db's response to these allegations here

So, why is this still going on despite Hadhrat's clear clarification?

[MADwanker]

Assalamu alaikum,

Secondly, I believe the era of the akabireen and the ulema of Deoband may be coming to an end. This might the very last generation. Within 10-20 years it might be gone. After Mufti Taqi Usmani saheb, Moulana Hakeem Akhtar, Shaykh Zulfiqar and some other senior ulema are gone then thats the end.

Walikum-us-salam.

Not really brother. There are still a lot of excellent ulema present. Since the work of tableegh has spread, rich people are sending their kids to the madrassahs to become aalims. This has infact raised the bar.

And also almost all of the akabireen ulema have children who are also ulema. For example, the sons of Maulana Sarfaraz Khan Safdar (RA) are very good. The shiekh-ul-hadeeth of my madressah Maulana Saeed-ur-Rehman (who was a giant, and one of the akabir ulema) passed away last monday, and his son Maulana Ateeq-ur-Rehman has now taken over. I have met both the sons of Maulana Tariq Jameel, and mashAllah they are very good aalims too.

Also, since most of the deobandi/tableeghi ulema do not come on TV or the media, therefore they are unknown to the masses. Only the particular ones like Mufti Taqi Usmani or Mufti Yousuf Ludhianvi (RA) etc, are known by the people.

[MADwanker]

So, why is this still going on despite Hadhrat's clear clarification?

Walikum-us-salam.

I recommend everyone to read the book, which is written by Mufti Taqi Usmani in response to the allegations. It has really opened my eyes, and now i am even more impressed by the immense knowledge and research that Mufti Sahab possesses.