[MADwanker]

Also, I highly doubt that Hazrat Mufti Zar Wali Khan saheb db goes around criticizing people because he is jealous or has nothing better to do.

Assalam Alaikum.

Unfortunately, you (and many other sincere and honest brothers here) are not fully aware of the ground realities.

The last one year was a very dark and gloomy period for deobandi ulema. And it is sad to say that Mufti Zar Wali Khan (RA) was the person who originated it. I know that if i become more explicit, it would create a stir and an uproar.

I respect Mufti Sahab immensely. But what he did in the Islamic Banking row, has really disturbed me and thousands of other talib-ilms and ulemas all through out Pakistan.

I also fully agree that Maulana Tariq Jameel should refrain from quoting such false hadeeths, and i am not advocating on Maulana Tariq Jameel's behalf. However it seems that people have a loaded gun, which is always aimed at Maulana Tariq Jameel. As soon as he does something wrong, he is shot!

[RooldpalApata]

Assalam Alaikum.

Unfortunately, you (and many other sincere and honest brothers here) are not fully aware of the ground realities.

The last one year was a very dark and gloomy period for deobandi ulema. And it is sad to say that Mufti Zar Wali Khan (RA) was the person who originated it. I know that if i become more explicit, it would create a stir and an uproar.

I respect Mufti Sahab immensely. But what he did in the Islamic Banking row, has really disturbed me and thousands of other talib-ilms and ulemas all through out Pakistan.

I also fully agree that Maulana Tariq Jameel should refrain from quoting such false hadeeths, and i am not advocating on Maulana Tariq Jameel's behalf. However it seems that people have a loaded gun, which is always aimed at Maulana Tariq Jameel. As soon as he does something wrong, he is shot!

Your attitude for a student is totally disgraceful. This is not the first time you have taken such a tone on ulema. Understand one thing clearly, if a scholar is firm towards other aalims which you may disagree with but as a student with much more limited knowledge you should remain quiet. I am afraid if you carry on with such an attitude you will NEVER gain knowledge that will be of benefit.

Basically you talk too much for someone still studying.

About banking if students are confused so what?. Mufti Zar Wali Khan has the knowledge, hence if he sees something wrong he has all the right to have objections.

[MADwanker]

This is not the first time you have taken such a tone on ulema. Understand one thing clearly, if a scholar is firm towards other aalims which you may disagree with but as a student with much more limited knowledge you should remain quiet.

Walikum-us-salam.

Where and when i taken such a tone on ulema? I think that i maintain respect for ulema from any maslak. I would be waiting for any evidence that you may present for your accusation.

And when did i say that I disagree with Mufti Zar Wali? He has thrown allegations over my teacher Mufti Taqi Usmani. And there is hue and cry through out Pakistan. All the akabir ulema, who support Mufti Taqi Usmani have clearly come out against Mufti Zar Wali Khan Sahab.

I am afraid if you carry on with such an attitude you will NEVER gain knowledge that will be of benefit.

It is a habit of some people on this forum to put words in other's mouth. I don't think i disrespected Mufti Sahab. Infact i said that i respect him and his knowledge immensely.

Basically you talk too much for someone still studying.

JazakAllah for that. I try to bring proof for whatever i say, from the akabireen ulema and my teachers. I am a Naqil (a person who receives and forwards). And i would always remain a talib ilm, and i would always remain in the footsteps of ulema.

About banking if students are confused so what?. Mufti Zar Wali Khan has the knowledge, hence if he sees something wrong he has all the right to have objections.

Mufti Zar Wali Khan has insulted Mufti Taqi Usmani and Mufti Rafi Usmani in public! Do you want to have a look at the letter that Maulana Saleemullah Khan sent to Mufti Taqi Usmani? And also do you want to have a look at the reply by Mufti Taqi Usmani?

Also, have you heard the bayans of Mufti Zar Wali Khan where he has disgraced the Usmani brothers and condemned them in public?

Do you also know about the anger that is present in the students of Darul Uloom Karachi?

At the end of the day, what do you know?

I am really amazed that you accuse me of disrespect towards ulema, when you don't know the other side of the story.

http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/show...t=44603&page=6

Read posts 53 and 54 of the above link, and see my discussion with Mufti Hussain Sahab.

[RooldpalApata]

Walikum-us-salam.

Where and when i taken such a tone on ulema? I think that i maintain respect for ulema from any maslak. I would be waiting for any evidence that you may present for your accusation.

And when did i say that I disagree with Mufti Zar Wali? He has thrown allegations over my teacher Mufti Taqi Usmani. And there is hue and cry through out Pakistan. All the akabir ulema, who support Mufti Taqi Usmani have clearly come out against Mufti Zar Wali Khan Sahab.



It is a habit of some people on this forum to put words in other's mouth. I don't think i disrespected Mufti Sahab. Infact i said that i respect him and his knowledge immensely.



JazakAllah for that. I try to bring proof for whatever i say, from the akabireen ulema and my teachers. I am a Naqil (a person who receives and forwards). And i would always remain a talib ilm, and i would always remain in the footsteps of ulema.



Mufti Zar Wali Khan has insulted Mufti Taqi Usmani and Mufti Rafi Usmani in public! Do you want to have a look at the letter that Maulana Saleemullah Khan sent to Mufti Taqi Usmani? And also do you want to have a look at the reply by Mufti Taqi Usmani?

Also, have you heard the bayans of Mufti Zar Wali Khan where he has disgraced the Usmani brothers and condemned them in public?

Do you also know about the hatred that is present in the students of Darul Uloom Karachi for Mufti Zar Wali Khan?

At the end of the day, what do you know?

I am really amazed that you accuse me of disrespect towards ulema, when you don't know the other side of the story.

http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/show...t=44603&page=6

Read posts 53 and 54 of the above link, and see my discussion with Mufti Hussain Sahab.

It seems you just dont read posts. I told you in the post if you disagree with a scholar you as a student should remain QUIET. The scholars should sort out their differences, now if scholars have refuted Mufti Zar Wali Khan as a student you need to be careful with your comments. Mentioning that a scholars view (who is well grounded in knowledge) shouldnt be taken seriously if not disrespectul than I guess standards have gone down. On top of it again you mention hatred of students for the respected Mufti, Astagfirullah. Instead of keeping your peace you keep on uttering statments like these as i told you will have no benefit. You carry with this all your work will be a waste.

As for proof, you seem to have forgotten the time when you made a bold statement which was deleted and Mufti Husain Saheb actually reprimanded you for it. Hence, I do not need to produce no proof.

[MADwanker]

I told you in the post if you disagree with a scholar you as a student should remain QUIET. The scholars should sort out their differences, now if scholars have refuted Mufti Zar Wali Khan as a student you need to be careful with your comments.

Walikum-us-salam.

Shouldn't the same thing also apply to other people, who talk bad about Maulana Tariq Jameel Sahab? Shouldn't they also leave it out to the scholars to settle their differences?

And i am very careful about my comments. I have had the honor of sitting in the class of Mufti Zar Wali Khan. I also know him very well. And the students of Darul Uloom Karachi told the students of Jamia Ahsan ul Uloom, that their teachers should be respected.

[RooldpalApata]

Walikum-us-salam.

Shouldn't the same thing also apply to other people, who talk bad about Maulana Tariq Jameel Sahab? Shouldn't they also leave it out to the scholars to settle their differences?

And i am very careful about my comments. I have had the honor of sitting in the class of Mufti Zar Wali Khan. I also know him very well. And the students of Darul Uloom Karachi told the students of Jamia Ahsan ul Uloom, that their teachers should be respected.

Obviously anyone talkiing badly about Maulana Tariq Jameel is bad. However, the reason it may appear as if I am picking on you is firstly because I have read from your posts the zeal of knowledge you have, hence my comments. Secondly, you are a student gaining deeni knowledge that is why I told you. Thridly, If you do become a scholar, you will get to know differences are very common and we should learn to deal with it in the appropriate manner and in particuar how to deal with comments of scholars who are more senior than us.

For someone who is not a scholar, for them to criticise Maulana Tariq Jameel holds no weight whatsoever. Hence, the comments of people without such knowledge are based on opinion and if i were to reply to every such comment would I get time for useful more benficial work?.

[smazibummigue]

Assalam o alaykum,

I have heard Mufti Zar Wali Khan praising Mufti Muhammad Taqi Usmani on many occasions. He has recommended his books as well. When asked about good books on taqlid, he replied that the book by Mufti Taqi Usmani and Allamah Sarfaraz Khan Safdar (may Allah have mercy on him).

As far as the issue of Islamic Banking, then jamhur of Ulama Deoband disagree with Dar al-Ulum Karachi on this matter and Mufti Zar Wali Khan is not alone in this.

Mufti Zar Wali Khan himself mentions that some people find my attitude harsh but in reality many of the Ulama have gone soft. That is why people are not used to this tone and they might find it harsh.

[barsikjal]

Assalam Alaikum.
I respect Mufti Sahab immensely. But what he did in the Islamic Banking row, has really disturbed me and thousands of other talib-ilms and ulemas all through out Pakistan.
...
Mufti Zar Wali Khan has insulted Mufti Taqi Usmani and Mufti Rafi Usmani in public! Do you want to have a look at the letter that Maulana Saleemullah Khan sent to Mufti Taqi Usmani? And also do you want to have a look at the reply by Mufti Taqi Usmani?

Also, have you heard the bayans of Mufti Zar Wali Khan where he has disgraced the Usmani brothers and condemned them in public?

Do you also know about the hatred that is present in the students of Darul Uloom Karachi for Mufti Zar Wali Khan?

Brother, why are you exaggerating? Mufti Zarwali is not alone when it comes to the matter of Islamic banking. Mufti Taqi's own teacher Mawlana Saleemullah Khan disagreed as well. Moreover, it was Mawlana Saleemullah Khan who invited Mufti Zarwali in this gathering of these few Muftis including Mufti Taqi Usmani.

You can view the list of Ulama who have signed the document against Mufti Taqi Usmani here: http://banuri.edu.pk/node/419

Also, regardless of the harsh attitude of Mufti Zarwali, he has still immense respect for Mufti Taqi Usmani. I can say I have listened to most of the bayaans by Mufti Zarwali, including his dawra tafsir of the past years, the shabe jum'a bayan and jum'a bayans. Numerous times he has mentioned Mufti Taqi Usmani with respect and recommended his books, and when the Fatwa against Islamic banking came out, he introduced him with very lofty titles. He only disagreed on this matter and is vehemently against it, which is his right.

[smazibummigue]

Hm.. sounds a little like Moulana A.S. Desai Saheb of South Africa. he is very knowledgeable, yet his words usually come off rather bitter.

Assalam o alaykum,

I think once you start listening to Mufti Zar Wali Khan, you most likely will change your opinion. He is no way like the Majlis. There is a huge difference between Mufti Zar Wali Khan and the Majlis. He has never insulted any proper scholar.

Please, listen to him for few months and then compare the two.

http://www.ahsanululoom.net/

[RooldpalApata]

Assalam o alaykum,

I think once you start listening to Mufti Zar Wali Khan, you most likely will change your opinion. He is no way like the Majlis. There is a huge difference between Mufti Zar Wali Khan and the Majlis. He has never insulted any proper scholar.

Please, listen to him for few months and then compare the two.

http://www.ahsanululoom.net/

The tafseer links are not working for me. Any solution?

[smazibummigue]

The tafseer links are not working for me. Any solution?

Assalam o alaykum,

It works fine for me. What message do you get? Right click on the arrow sign on far-left and save it on your desktop and then listen.

[RooldpalApata]

Assalam o alaykum,

It works fine for me. What message do you get? Right click on the arrow sign on far-left and save it on your desktop and then listen.

Jazaka-Allah Khaira works perfectly now.

[alexbookhyip]

This is an honest question on my part. I have tried my best to search an answer but couldn't find it. I still maintain husn-e-dhan though.

Did the ulema on Maulana Saleemullah Khan db's side try to reconcile with Hazrat Maulana Mufti Taqi Usmani sahib sb's side?

I have tried to read different documents that were made available and it just seems (based on my limited knowledge) that they didn't make an effort to reach out properly. I don't doubt that they read books on Islamic finance by DUK ulema but actually trying to sort difference by a healthy dialogue is a different thing. Please enlighten me on this.

IMHO the field of Islamic sciences is very vast too. Ulema should have their fields of specialization too. Just like a Phd in wireless protocols of Layer 4 can not comment on the physical layer.

It would be interesting to know how many of the signatories have an intimate understanding of Finance in addition to a proper understanding of fiqh. Maulana Saleemullah Khan db has clearly indicated that ifta is not his field and he doesn't really what happened. I wonder what prompted Hazrat to lead this effort then.

Overall as brothers have said many times this whole episode was very sad. Not only did the ulema of Deoband loose credibility but became laughing stock too....
I am sure and we all know that there could have been better ways to get this sorted out especially when Mufti sahib db has said so many times that if proven to him he does not mind making ruju on his positions at all.

And for those people who haven't read it already please do read the following article

http://www.deeneislam.com/ur/verti/j...le.php?CID=369

[ugosanchezo]

Questforthepath,

Unfrotunately on the net I have not seen many people who approach this issue in an unbiased manner. Many, rather almost all are preoccupied with love for Mufti Taqi Saheb db. so naturally as soon as they hear a certain Mufti Zarwali or certain Maulana Saleemullah Khan db. speaking negatively about Mufti Taqi Saheb db. these people become defensive and loose sight of bias.

I have seen such unbias to even stronger degree among the students of Mufti Saheb and even Ulama who otherwise do not know much of these finanicial issues (in detail). A majority of these Ulama and his students simply take Mufti Saheb as an unquestionable authority in finance, so much so that anyone and everyone who may say otherwise has to be unqualified for an opinion.

Without geting into the issues of who is speaking the truth and who is not, I think for us laymen we simply need to sit back, have sabr and await for these Ulama to reconcile on the issue. The "Islamic Murawaja Banking" was not a compilation of a few unqualified Mufties, rather many muftis within the field of finance. Similarly, Mufti Taqi Saheb db finally coming out to explain the fiqhi issues and answering them is indeed a posative sign. Perhaps it opens a good way of finally approaching him with regards to these issues.

I pray that Mufti Taqi Saheb db. not only cater for the local opposition with academic responses, rather also address the issues some foreign Iftaa Dept. have been requesting him to consider. I know this because of the requests sent out from our own darul iftaa, which have long been forgotten. I sincerely hope these issues get a proper addressing.

[kilibry]

Assalamu alaikum,

I do not know too much about what happened with Mufti Zarwali and Mufti Taqi. In fact I never even heard of Mufti Zarwali until a few months ago. However I would like to say that the overwhelming majority of the ulema disagree with Mufti Taqi Usmani in how his theories are implemented. I can provide first hand examples but I am awaiting to receive a copy of the Guidance contract from a mufti.

[ugosanchezo]

... In fact I never even heard of Mufti Zarwali until a few months ago.

That is exactly one of the reasons why people automatically assume before hand that there is perhaps no merit in the claim of Mufti Zar Wali db.

[alexbookhyip]

respected brother abuhajira

Unfrotunately on the net I have not seen many people who approach this issue in an unbiased manner. Many, rather almost all are preoccupied with love for Mufti Taqi Saheb db. so naturally as soon as they hear a certain Mufti Zarwali or certain Maulana Saleemullah Khan db. speaking negatively about Mufti Taqi Saheb db. these people become defensive and loose sight of bias.

I have seen such unbias to even stronger degree among the students of Mufti Saheb and even Ulama who otherwise do not know much of these finanicial issues (in detail). A majority of these Ulama and his students simply take Mufti Saheb as an unquestionable authority in finance, so much so that anyone and everyone who may say otherwise has to be unqualified for an opinion.

I agree with your point. Laymen like me are biased out of their love for Mufti saheb db. This is not the right approach as no one after the Prophets is masoom.

Without geting into the issues of who is speaking the truth and who is not, I think for us laymen we simply need to sit back, have sabr and await for these Ulama to reconcile on the issue.

Excellent advice

The "Islamic Murawaja Banking" was not a compilation of a few unqualified Mufties, rather many muftis within the field of finance. Similarly, Mufti Taqi Saheb db finally coming out to explain the fiqhi issues and answering them is indeed a posative sign. Perhaps it opens a good way of finally approaching him with regards to these issues.

It would be great to get to know some of the Muftis and their contributions in the field of Islamic finance. Also if some of them have hopefully proposed some alternate structures.

But my question was a little different. I want to see the efforts made by these ulema to correct Mufti saheb's positions. Even in their document there is not even one count of someone approaching Mufti saheb for a healthy discussion.
A laymen like me can phone Mufti saheb from Canada and ask a question and these ulema can't get hold of him in Pakistan, can't comprehend this....

Before the "muttafiqa" fatwa was published, there is the incident where Mufti saheb db himself went to their darul iftaa to seek a copy of the fatwa being prepared. A lot of these ulema are much junior to Mufti saheb db, they could have been persuasive if mufti saheb didn't answer something perhaps due to shortage of time (we all know how busy Hazrat db is).

If there was an effort done then simply let laymen like me know about it. On the other hand if it wasn't done then thats very sad.

I pray that Mufti Taqi Saheb db. not only cater for the local opposition with academic responses, rather also address the issues some foreign Iftaa Dept. have been requesting him to consider. I know this because of the requests sent out from our own darul iftaa, which have long been forgotten. I sincerely hope these issues get a proper addressing.

Hazrat db or someone else at DUK should definitely look into it.


In the end I would say difference is not a bad thing at all. It puts a check on everyone but I believe an effort to reconcile before going public is important

[ugosanchezo]

If there was an effort done then simply let laymen like me know about it. On the other hand if it wasn't done then thats very sad.

Again it is not as black and white as we sometime think it to be. When the mutafaqqah fatwa was given I was thinking the same issues and I had husn e dhan that there must be some reasoning why it came all of a sudden. But When I read the preface of the "Murawajah Islamic Banking" Maulana Saleem clarifies a couple of points in there...(please keep in mind Ml. Saleemullah mentions this, so please no one start to discuss the issue with me )

a. Such opposition had been going on in the local arena in Pakistan for quite sometime now. so Mufti Taqi Saheb db was not unaware of the mas'ala commonly fingerpointed at. Up untill the issue of the fatwa, these concerns were constantly being ignored. hence It was not an unexpected concern to Mufti Taqi Saheb db as such.
b. The issue of the collective fatwa, we infact merely a collaboration of the concerns which were already prevalent, and ignored. So this move infact established the stance of the majority of Ulama and Muftiyan of the country to collectively show confidence againt Mufti Taqi db's stance.
c. Mufti Taqi db's stance is abundantly clear from his works, thus no formal correspondence was required to get his opinions. However, since the publishing of the fatwa, our stance has become clear, and made better grounds for him to write up a proper answer to the concerns being ignored.
d. Another point he tackled (as far as I remember) was that in principle such issue of ones stance is of no disrespect rather only when two considerable stand points come to forefront, then only can one start to compare and contrast the dalail
e. Also mentioned that had we started correspondence as many are asking us again and again, our collective standpoint would not have come to limelight, and would have again go hidden in long lasting academic discussions. Now that both stances are known, the discussion can proceed while giving full consideration to both sides.

Thats what I can remember... from Murawajjah Islamic Banking .. begining pages.


In the least, that is the issue from Ml. Saleemullah Khan Saheb db.

[jurhoonee]

Personally, I think it was about time the opposing viewpoint (or majority viewpoint?) got some publicity. Many laypeople were under tremendous pressure to give into these new schemes, and made to seem like uber-fundamentalists because they were not even accepting fatwa from Mufti Taqi in this issue. Part of this is probably due to aggressive advertising from the banking institutions themselves.

since this ruling was given in opposition, at least more people can have himmah to demand that we have real, competely Islamic financial systems, and not just loopholes in the existing haraam system to somehow squeeze them into "shariah-compliance."

The same goes for the "Islamic television" issue, which I believe is much more clear cut than the banking stuff.

The sad fact is, there is a large majority of the population that is practically itching to follow in the footsteps of the kuffaar and only held back by family, cultural taboo, etc. in these issues. So when some gave a fatwa that you can do it in a certain manner, and be able to wave a fatwa at anyone that looks askance at you, it was like poking a hole in the societal pressure cooker.

[alexbookhyip]

Again it is not as black and white as we sometime think it to be. When the mutafaqqah fatwa was given I was thinking the same issues and I had husn e dhan that there must be some reasoning why it came all of a sudden. But When I read the preface of the "Murawajah Islamic Banking" Maulana Saleem clarifies a couple of points in there...(please keep in mind Ml. Saleemullah mentions this, so please no one start to discuss the issue with me )

a. Such opposition had been going on in the local arena in Pakistan for quite sometime now. so Mufti Taqi Saheb db was not unaware of the mas'ala commonly fingerpointed at. Up untill the issue of the fatwa, these concerns were constantly being ignored. hence It was not an unexpected concern to Mufti Taqi Saheb db as such.
b. The issue of the collective fatwa, we infact merely a collaboration of the concerns which were already prevalent, and ignored. So this move infact established the stance of the majority of Ulama and Muftiyan of the country to collectively show confidence againt Mufti Taqi db's stance.
c. Mufti Taqi db's stance is abundantly clear from his works, thus no formal correspondence was required to get his opinions. However, since the publishing of the fatwa, our stance has become clear, and made better grounds for him to write up a proper answer to the concerns being ignored.
d. Another point he tackled (as far as I remember) was that in principle such issue of ones stance is of no disrespect rather only when two considerable stand points come to forefront, then only can one start to compare and contrast the dalail
e. Also mentioned that had we started correspondence as many are asking us again and again, our collective standpoint would not have come to limelight, and would have again go hidden in long lasting academic discussions. Now that both stances are known, the discussion can proceed while giving full consideration to both sides.

Thats what I can remember... from Murawajjah Islamic Banking .. begining pages.


In the least, that is the issue from Ml. Saleemullah Khan Saheb db.

brother abuhajira for the explanation. I kind of understand the reasoning behind it. However I still believe this could have been done in a better manner, to defend the deoband school of thought from external attacks and to keep internal unity.

I guess it really boils down to your earlier suggestion. And like all ulema say we should follow the ulema that we have trust in.

But one thing is there. I think this "muttafiqa" fatwa and "jumhur" terms are a little misleading. I am sure (based on reading different articles etc.) that if Mufti Taqi wants he can issue a fatwa with a lot more muftis signing it. This is not his style.

With this, I rest my case. JAK brother abuhajira for your patient responses.

WS