[mikelangr]

Who are Hizb al-'Ulamaa and Wifaaq al-'Ulamaa?

[cafeviahe]

Hizbul Ulama: http://www.hizbululama.org.uk/
Wifaqul Ulama: http://www.wifaqululama.co.uk/

[DoroKickcrofe]

Another strange point from WifaqulUlama. They criticize hizbululama for doubting 18 degrees for Fajr, and cite the likes of Mufti Taqi Usmani and many others.

But when it comes to Isha time they suddenly make a u-turn and cite none of the scholars who have allowed such?

Assalamualaykum

I have responded to this discussion before. For Fajr the Qur'an is quite specific about it's time ie when the white thread becomes clear from the black thread. For 'Isha there is more leeway. Lot's of scholars have said that due to haraj we can perform 'Isha before it's time.

I don't have the time right now to respond in detail, however 'Ulama have permitted the process I have used on my Wiki. For more details see Subh Sadi wa Kazib ki Tahqeeq - Maulana Yaqub Qasmi.

As I have said previously, the issue is not Hizbul Ulama's doubting 18 degrees, it's the system they propose. This has not been validated by anyone. Senior Mufti have come out and criticised them. See them on my Wiki.

This is an Ijtihadi issue no doubt, however Hizbul Ulama's timetable does not follow the laws of Fiqh. That is the problem.

Wasalam

Farid Patel

[cafeviahe]

Assalamualaykum

I have responded to this discussion before. For Fajr the Qur'an is quite specific about it's time ie when the white thread becomes clear from the black thread. For 'Isha there is more leeway. Lot's of scholars have said that due to haraj we can perform 'Isha before it's time.

I don't have the time right now to respond in detail, however 'Ulama have permitted the process I have used on my Wiki. For more details see Subh Sadi wa Kazib ki Tahqeeq - Maulana Yaqub Qasmi.

As I have said previously, the issue is not Hizbul Ulama's doubting 18 degrees, it's the system they propose. This has not been validated by anyone. Senior Mufti have come out and criticised them. See them on my Wiki.

This is an Ijtihadi issue no doubt, however Hizbul Ulama's timetable does not follow the laws of Fiqh. That is the problem.

Wasalam

Farid Patel

Wa alaykumussalaam,

JazaakAllah Khayra for coming in this thread. I have read the book you mentioned and there are no references at all. Who are those 'many' scholars you refer to? Anyone outside the UK? I responded in the other topic before to your explanation:

1. Who are the classical Ulama who have allowed to pray Isha BEFORE Shafaq Ahmar?
2. Where is the back up of scholars such as Mufti Rafi, Mufti Taqi and other madaris such as Darul Uloom Deoband and other big Madaris when it comes to this importat issue of praying Isha before its time?

Who from the scholars in the subcontinent has allowed to set Isha time even BELOW 12 degrees when 15 and 18 degrees is falling?

These are sincere questions. I would GLADLY accept such an opinion but unfortunately there are none.

How can this be an ijtihadi discussion when we have clear nusus stating you should pray WITHIN the prayer times?

4:103. Verily, the prayer is enjoined on the believers at fixed hours.

[cafeviahe]

I have posted here the Fatwa of Mufti Rafi Usmani with the stamp of the Muftis of Darul Uloom Karachi: http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/show...l=1#post479859

In his fatwa to the people of Leicester, he clearly states that there is IJMA on this issue that you cannot pray Isha time BEFORE its time. Haraj or no haraj.

Now, I would be really glad if you could give names of reputable scholars from the Arab world or the Subcontinent from the reliable Madaris, who said what you just said here:

Lot's of scholars have said that due to haraj we can perform 'Isha before it's time. Where is the reference, to already NOW start with praying Isha before 15 degrees, as showed on page 2?

[DoroKickcrofe]

This is a link to what the MWL agreed to

http://www.icoproject.org/latitude.html

You can see that a multitude of Arab scholars attended and approved their methods for 'Isha and Fajr. Maulana Yaqub Qasmi's methods only propose these for 'Isha due to Haraj and Fajr is left well alone to the implications on fasting etc.

You can see their other guidelines on that page ... as well as others

What methods do you propose using? What is the alternative?

Farid

[DoroKickcrofe]

This is a link to what the MWL agreed to

http://www.icoproject.org/latitude.html

You can see that a multitude of Arab scholars attended and approved their methods for 'Isha and Fajr. Maulana Yaqub Qasmi's methods only propose these for 'Isha due to Haraj and Fajr is left well alone to the implications on fasting etc.

You can see their other guidelines on that page ... as well as others

What methods do you propose using? What is the alternative?

Farid

If you look at the Leicester timetables they all follow similar methods to Maulana Yaqub Qasmi's proposals. There are senior and well respected Ulama in Leicester as I am sure you are aware.

[cafeviahe]

This is a link to what the MWL agreed to

http://www.icoproject.org/latitude.html

You can see that a multitude of Arab scholars attended and approved their methods for 'Isha and Fajr. Maulana Yaqub Qasmi's methods only propose these for 'Isha due to Haraj and Fajr is left well alone to the implications on fasting etc.

You can see their other guidelines on that page ... as well as others

What methods do you propose using? What is the alternative?

Farid

In the whole link, not a single clarification was given when actually Isha time disappears. That is the whole main issue.

(By the way, I was also invited with another Maliki scholar to that gathering in Belgium. Unfortunately, even the most Imams are not well aware of the issue, and just let the people of the committee decide. And these people such as mohamed odeh are astronomers, not ulama)

I propose just following the clear statements of the scholars, like Mufti Rafi Usmani stated in his fatwa. What do you think about the Fatwa of Dar al-Ulum Karachi?

If you have a clear reference, where it is clearly stated that you can pray Isha before its time, I am ready to accept it. It would also make things easier with me (no need to perform my prayers again after praying Isha in the mosque).

I believe the Salafi opinion of combing prayers is more convincing. Within the Hanabila there is a major controversial point whether you can combine prayers because of work. I believe that opinion has more basis than just praying Isha before its time.

Some more points to note:

- You follow 15 degrees as a rukhsa, until 18 degrees disappears. When 18 degrees disappears you follow alternative calculation (90 minutes after maghrib). However, Isha time would still be late. Perhaps as a rukhsa the 12 degrees can be followed as well. Ulama should decide on that.

However, Mufti Rafi said that when 18 degrees disappears, one should follow 15 degrees. So the Ulama should discuss this issue together.

[cafeviahe]

If you look at the Leicester timetables they all follow similar methods to Maulana Yaqub Qasmi's proposals. There are senior and well respected Ulama in Leicester as I am sure you are aware.

Can you name other Ulama from the subcontinent, or Arab world, who has allowed to pray Isha before its time?

Mufti Desai that wifaqululama quoted?
Mufti Rafi, Mufti Taqi?
Darul Uloom Dhabel?
Deoband?
Saharanpur?

Who else agreed with that opinion? Can you give references from classical texts like Mufti Rafi gave?

[casinochniks]

Regarding Fajar and Isha times, Maulana Shoyaib Nurgat (whom i think is part of Wifaq) has written an article outlining the 3 time tables (15 degrees, 18 degrees and Hizb Ulama)

Analysis of Salah Times

'...The senior Ulama in this country like Mufti Ismail Kacholvi Saheb, Mufti Yusuf Sacha Saheb
are all of this opinion of 18 Degrees.
Recently apart from one Masjid ( Falah) all the Masajid in Leicester have adopted this 18
Degrees timetable. The Masajid of Dewsbury, Batley, Regents Park and South London, and
many others throughout the country have been following this timetable for quite a few
years.'

[cafeviahe]

Regarding Fajar and Isha times, Maulana Shoyaib Nurgat (whom i think is part of Wifaq) has written an article outlining the 3 time tables (15 degrees, 18 degrees and Hizb Ulama)

Analysis of Salah Times

'...The senior Ulama in this country like Mufti Ismail Kacholvi Saheb, Mufti Yusuf Sacha Saheb
are all of this opinion of 18 Degrees.
Recently apart from one Masjid ( Falah) all the Masajid in Leicester have adopted this 18
Degrees timetable. The Masajid of Dewsbury, Batley, Regents Park and South London, and
many others throughout the country have been following this timetable for quite a few
years.'

The whole discussion is about Fajr being at 18 degrees. When it comes to Isha being at 18 degrees or 15, they all go against the Akaabir of Deoband that they are citing in that article.

[Ternneowns]

So would it be better to perform isha in jamah at the masjid at the rukhsa time or to perform it alone in the house if one is able to at the later proper time?

[DoroKickcrofe]

Assalamualaykum Ansari

You didn't read the link it clearly stated that both the Fiqh Council and Muslim World League agreed to the methodology that was proposed by ICOP. The method is at the bottom of the page and that also implies performing Isha being it's correct time.

It looks like we will never agree and if I'm honest "haraj" is one of those things. In countries of high latitude different scholars have said different things. The example on the ICOP website is an example which clearly states that both Fajr and Isha can be performed at other than their "prescribed" times.

If you feel it's not for you then the Hadith states "seek an answer from your heart".

In summary, it appears that we are in agreement with 18 degrees for Fajr and 18 degrees for Isha. From March to October (in London) according to Maulana Yaqub Qasmi's methodology when Isha is performed before 18, 15 and later 12 degrees you have an issue with this, that's for you to decide what you do. Repeating or combining salah or whatever else.

I am satisfied with Maulana Yaqub Qasmi's proposal as it has clear references to Fiqh and has followed the principles of Fiqh. And Yes, "haraj" or "dharurah" is a basis for many masa'il. It appears many of the Ulama in the UK including the Ulama of Leicester are also satisfied with this. If you feel this is not stringent enough, then that is your call. I respect you for it.

Wasalam

Farid

[cafeviahe]

Assalamualaykum Ansari

You didn't read the link it clearly stated that both the Fiqh Council and Muslim World League agreed to the methodology that was proposed by ICOP. The method is at the bottom of the page and that also implies performing Isha being it's correct time.

It looks like we will never agree and if I'm honest "haraj" is one of those things. In countries of high latitude different scholars have said different things. The example on the ICOP website is an example which clearly states that both Fajr and Isha can be performed at other than their "prescribed" times.

If you feel it's not for you then the Hadith states "seek an answer from your heart".

In summary, it appears that we are in agreement with 18 degrees for Fajr and 18 degrees for Isha. From March to October (in London) according to Maulana Yaqub Qasmi's methodology when Isha is performed before 18, 15 and later 12 degrees you have an issue with this, that's for you to decide what you do. Repeating or combining salah or whatever else.

I am satisfied with Maulana Yaqub Qasmi's proposal as it has clear references to Fiqh and has followed the principles of Fiqh. And Yes, "haraj" or "dharurah" is a basis for many masa'il. It appears many of the Ulama in the UK including the Ulama of Leicester are also satisfied with this. If you feel this is not stringent enough, then that is your call. I respect you for it.

Wasalam

Farid

Wa alaykumussalaam,

Brother, the ICO link follows 18 degrees throughout the whole summer!! Not 15 nor 12.

Their Isha time for London on 1 August is 23:38: http://www.icoproject.org/UK.pdf (p. 80)

Your time on 1 August is 22:04. That is more than 1,5 hours difference!!

I already posted this:

Some remarks by me about the London Calender posted on their website:

18 degrees disappears on 24 May until 21 July.

This means in the Ramadan (August), in London 18 degrees stil sets in.

At 1 August Isha time is:

18 degrees = 23:40
15 degrees = 22:57
12 degrees = 22:24

Their London timetable referred by WifaqulUlama as posted by brother Farid Patel on 1 August = 22:04
This means they are not even promoting 12 degrees!!! WML says Isha time on 1 August is 23:38!!

Another example I gave was Isha time of today.

According to WML it is 21:51, yours is at 21:16.

The calender referred by WifaqulUlama has stated that Isha time in London at 9 april = 21:16

18 degrees = 21:51
15 degrees = 21:30
12 degrees = 21:04

Now look, they are not even following 15 nor 18 degrees when it is EASY to pray Isha at least on 21:30!!! So how can you say that you are following MWL? That is not the case at all. Your prayer timetable mentioned at your website differs with the timetables made by Mohamed Odeh. I have e-mailed with brother Odeh years ago and he also clearly believes that Isha times sets in at 18 degrees (but he does not believe in shafaq ahmar in that case, and says it differs).

So can you make clear that you are not following the guidelines of MWL?

Moreover, you still are mentioning "many Ulama" who allowed to pray Isha time before its time. I am still waiting for CLASSICAL references?

I referred to the Fatwa of Darul Uloom Karachi saying there is IJMA on this issue. Do you have any Fatwa from a Darul Ifta supporting your stance?

[DoroKickcrofe]

I'll copy and paste ICOP's methodology below:

The adopted method is called "Local Relative Estimation", and the alternative prayer times are found using the following procedure:-

The time span between Sunset and Isha time is found for each day the actual Isha time exists. Lets call this "Isha Length".
The time span between Sunset and Sunrise is found for each day the actual Isha time exists. Lets call this "Night Length".
The percentage of Isha Length to Night Length is found for each day the actual Isha time exists. Lets call this "Isha Percentage".
Now we will end up with many Isha Percentages, so the average Isha Percentage is found. Lets call this "Average Isha Percentage".
When Isha prayer time disappears on a certain day, this percentage will be applied to find the alternative Isha Prayer Time.
The same Average Percentage is used to find the alternative Fajr Time.
If the above mentioned procedure is used directly in the first day the Isha/Fajr disappears, then there will be a big difference in time between Isha/Fajr prayer time of the last day the actual Isha/Fajr prayer time exists and between the first day the alternative Isha/Fajr prayer time is used. Thus this procedure is not used directly when the Isha/Fajr time disappears! Instead, at the beginning of the disappearance period, the alternative Isha time is found by subtracting 5 minutes from the previous day (and 5 minutes are added to the Fajr prayer time of the previous day). This 5-minute increment is used until there is no gap found using the Local Relative Estimation method. Same procedure is used at the end of the disappearance period.

Is this clearer? If you work this out for particular dates or use Odeh's Accurate Times programme you will understand what I am saying above.

[cafeviahe]

I'll copy and paste ICOP's methodology below:



Is this clearer? If you work this out for particular dates or use Odeh's Accurate Times programme you will understand what I am saying above.

Yes but WHEN should this method be applied? When 18 degrees does not fall anymore!! And this is what MWL and ICOP did. They applied it when 18 degrees does not fall anymore.

Your timetables are applying this method WAY BEFORE, when 18 and 15 degrees still sets in.

And I have showed that EVEN NOW (9 april) even when there is NO HARAJ, you are not following 18 nor 15degrees.

How can this be possible?

[DoroKickcrofe]

No you missed the point again!

7. If the above mentioned procedure is used directly in the first day the Isha/Fajr disappears, then there will be a big difference in time between Isha/Fajr prayer time of the last day the actual Isha/Fajr prayer time exists and between the first day the alternative Isha/Fajr prayer time is used. Thus this procedure is not used directly when the Isha/Fajr time disappears! Instead, at the beginning of the disappearance period, the alternative Isha time is found by subtracting 5 minutes from the previous day (and 5 minutes are added to the Fajr prayer time of the previous day). This 5-minute increment is used until there is no gap found using the Local Relative Estimation method. Same procedure is used at the end of the disappearance period. Read the above again and you will see that they avoid the jump by starting the phasing process before the last day that 18 degrees occurs! Keep reading it, until it makes sense to you! I am not trying to pull the wool over your eyes and I am not lying!

Wasalam

Farid

[cafeviahe]

I fail to understand your point. Look at their timetables. They are totally different than yours. They do not start earlier with the alternative method and when l Isha time still sets in through 18 degrees, they are following it.

There is a person in Germay who prepares the timetables of countries such as Germany, Holland, Belgium etc. for Arab mosques. He also used the alternative method (but instead of that, he follows 15 degrees throughout the whole year as many Arab mosques in the Europe do) BEFORE the sign of Isha time disappears. Mohamed Odeh was apporached in this regard and it was said that he had nothing to do with the Fiqh Council and he did this on his own.

[Eromaveabeara]

bhai Ansari, let me get yuor query straight.

your query is that even when esha time does take place according to even 15 degrees, why is the ruling on hardship used and esha prayed earlier? is that correct?

[SiM7W2zi]

I was finally able to have a long and detailed conversation with Shaykh (Mufti) Yusuf Sacha about this matter and it is now clear in mind what Shaykh (Mufti) Rafi Usmani and Shaykh (Mufti) Taqi Usmani are saying and why!

Me: What is your opinion on adopting the angles for Fajar & Esha?
Mufti Yusuf Sacha 18 degrees

Me: why not 15?
Mufti Yusuf Sacha I know that it is the opinion of Shaykh (Mufti) Rasheed Ahmed Ludhyanwi Saheb (RA) but in many discussions and research I found his opinion to be “lone” and even Ulama and scientists in Pakistan disagree with him so how can I adopt it?

I have had discussions with scientists and what Mufti Rasheed (RA) calls background light isn't so and I have found scientists in UK (and abroad) to disagree with the opinion of Mufti Rasheed (RA)

Me: How about Ulama in South Africa and USA?
Mufti Yusuf Sacha I know that some of them may support 15 degrees but not all of them.

He then showed me his personal file with details and correspondence dating back to 1973 (I think)


Me: Wasn't 18 degrees adopted because of British railroad system?
Mufti Yusuf Sacha Absolutely not! Look up in the old Mazahire-Haq and 18 degrees is mentioned and thats before the British got to India. Our Ulama and Akabir have been using it before British. British had nothing to do with it.

Me Does it apply to UK? And Why?
Mufti Yusuf Sacha Yes because:
a) Shaykh (Maulana) Ashraf Ali Thanwi (RA)’s Scotland timetable was based on 18 degrees and
b) Observations based on over two years prove that the calculations of Shaykh (Maulana) Ashraf Ali Thanwi (RA) was correct

Since then I have found the observations of Scottish Ulama and I can provide the copy.

Me What do we do with late Esha times i.e. Haraj to the Ummah?
Mufti Yusuf Sacha You may adopt 1/7th of the night from 01st of May until 01st of September and gradually start adjusting your Esha times from 01st of April i.e. do calculations for your city and let us consider it

He made the point that he is discussing Batley and other cities may differ slightly

Me Sorry Mufti Saheb I don’t understand? One minute you are telling me to adopt 18 degrees and next minute you are telling me to jig it? Why is that?
Mufti Yusuf Sacha Because we have three (3) separate opinions about Esha:
a)Qabla Shafaq Ahmer (Shafa'e)
b) Shafaq Ahmer (Sahibain)
c) Shafaq Abyadh (Imam Abu Haneefa (RA))
And we can use it for “Haraj” and also when we look at Hanafi Fuqaha and their prayer timetable for Balgar we can see this precedence

Me What can we do about Fajar?
Mufti Yusuf Sacha 18 degrees and I have found no daleel otherwise. In the days of perpetual twilight my opinion is to prefer Aqrabul-Ayyam

Me Jazakullah Khairun Mufti Saheb...I never understood the Shariah reasons for jigging Esha but locking Fajar before today. You are considering the opinions of Muhaditheen outside the Madhab (for Esha) but for Fajar you have no evidence from Qur'aan and Sunnah and no Ijtehaad so you cannot do anything.

Mufti Yusuf Sacha Yes thats the reason and we have extensively discussed the matter with Mufti Rafi Usmani Saheb (DB).

Me How about the opinion of Shaykhul-Hadeeth Maulana Saeed Palunpuri (DB) in his commentary of Tirmidhi?

Mufti Yusuf Sacha That is an issue concerning X X X and not applicable to UK

Me I had no clue what he was saying and it all went over my head.

Fly-by-past-my-brain-and-I-was-clueless about the Ijtehaad of Shaykhul-Hadeeth Maulana Saeed Palunpuri (DB) does not pertain to UK
P.S: Italics are mine and the conversation is to the best of my ability so the error would be mine and not Mufti Yusuf Sacha.

P.P.S: I have no clue what Shaykhul-Hadeeth Maulana Saeed Palunpuri (DB) is actually saying and why...I was just trying to impress Mufti Yusuf Sacha and his replies went over my head. Moral of the story "Understand your query BEFORE you speak to a good Mufti and don't waflle!!!"

Here is what happens:

1) Sunset
2) Shafaq Ahmer (Red twilight) Appears in the sky
3) Shafaq Ahmer (Red twilight) Disappears in the sky
4) Shafaq Abyadh (White twilight) Appears in the sky
5) Shafaq Abyadh (White twilight) Disappears in the sky
6) TOTAL DARKNESS
7) And then reverse and then sunrise...

According to Imam Abu Yusuf (RA) & Imam Muhammad (RA) Esha starts at 3

According to Imam Abu Haneefa (RA) Esha starts at 5

Those who propose 18 degrees say that 5 hapens when sun is 18 degrees below the horizon and 3 hapens when sun is 15 degrees

Those who propose 15 degrees say that 5 hapens when sun is 15 degrees below the horizon and 3 hapens when sun is 12 degrees

There comes a time in UK when 5 NEVER happens i.e. white twlight stays all night

Then after a few days there comes a time in UK when 3 NEVER happens i.e. red twlight stays all night I believe that this doesn't occur in London but in most cities North you can observe it

So you can't pray either at 18 degrees or 15 degrees (even if you take "3" to be 15 in the 18 degree opinion).

According to a “Qabla (before) Shafaq Ahmer” Shaf’ae opinion Esha starts between 1 & 2 or even between 2 & 3 so infact a very quick Esha after Maghrib

Again this is my feeble understanding and not the actual words of Mufti Yusuf Sacha so if a Shaf’ae brother wants to clarify what it actually is that would be fine. I didn’t ask Mufti Yusuf Sacha for clarification.

P.P.S: I am getting a high fever so my posts are probably not making sense

can anyone explain that for in more detail,please.

Colonel,it's true right that in the UK,there are certain times of the year when Eisha time does not start as the reddish light does not disappear.

From what I understand,the reddish light disappearing is what denotes '15 degrees' and the whitish light disappearing denotes '18 degrees'.

but in some parts of the year,the reddish light does not disappear thus eisha time does does not start.

now when this happens,ive been told by a young(but very knowledgable mufti) that one can,if they wanted to,pray maghrib and eisha together. He said its best obviously to pray eisha with jamaat but if one had aurgent work to do or something,then they could pray eisha and maghrib together.

can you please clarify.

There are two issues in UK:
a) Esha
b) Fajar

Lets separate and discuss them one at a time. For Esha we actually have a third opinion which is proposed by the Muhaditheen of Shaf’ae Madhab and they propose to pray Esha “Qabla Shafaq Ahmer” i.e. very close after sunset!

This opinion has precedence in the Hanafi Madhab and it was adopted in Balgar (Tatarstan). Therefore we can make people’s live very convenient by jigging around Esha times and making them very early (i.e. as early as 55 minutes after Maghrib) .

For Fajar we have no daleel either in the Hanafi Madhab or Shaf’ae Madhab therefore we have no choice but to pray when the time actually enters so we can either take 18 degrees (thus go with majority opinion) or with 15 degrees (thus go with the opinion of Shaykh (Mufti) Rasheed Ahmed Ludhyanwi (RA) or Mufti Ibraheem Desai)). We still hit a problem:

1) There are times when the sun doesn’t go 18 degrees below the horizon so we have no Fajar start. Approximate dates for this around Birmingham are from 18th of May to 22nd of July

2) There are times when the sun doesn’t go 15 degrees below the horizon so we have no Fajar start. Approximate dates for this around Birmingham are from almost June to mid-july

Whether you adopt 18 degrees or 15 degrees in most of UK you will hit this problem so the alternatives on how to pray are given in this booklet:

http://www.esnips.com/doc/91480a82-3...etual_Twilight

If you adopt 18 degrees its more advantageous it is and you can JIG Fajar start to suit your needs for longer because it doesn’t occur So 18 degrees is majority opinion and convenient if you get what I am saying!

If you adopt 15 degrees its less advantageous it is and you can JIG Fajar start to suit your needs for shorter period.

I heard that (sh) Bin Baz once said that in these northern hemisphere countries you can pray Isha and fajr at a similar time.

Can anyone corroborate?

Shaykh Uthaymeen (RA) is the only one who has discussed degrees and he is of the opinion that Fajar & Esha occurs at 18 degrees. You can see a Fatwa from 3-4 weeks ago on a famous site where Saudi Scholars have blasted the Egyptians for having early Fajar!

Where 18 degrees doesn't occur then Esha & Maghrib can indeed be combined and if Shaykh Bin Baaz (RA) has said it then he is not alone and it is also the opinion of Shaykh Yusuf Qaradwi (RA) and Hanafi Scholars like Shaykh (Maulana) Yaqoub Qasmi.

http://www.esnips.com/doc/91480a82-3...etual_Twilight

well i dont know about shaykh bin baz...but our ulema have allowed it..even hadhrat jee inamul hasan rh the amir of tabligh prayed fajr i think at 115 or 130 when he came...and this was related by an eyewitness who prayed with him...I heard that some places up north somewhere do jamah at 145 or 200...I asked one shaykh and he said that it encourages people to stay awake and that's why he was against it. However another shaykh said that it's fine. So enigma you know any place round your end that does jamah of fajr early..I know some friends of mine after isha would chill and then do jamaah at i think 145....this twilight issue has been mentioned in ibn batuta's works too...he went somewhere and they prayed early...i don't know the exact quote...someone can maybe find it? It's more of an issue in places like sweden...

the masters in this field are very few...most ulema/mashaikh don't have a clue. I heard darul iftaa karachi do a 1 or 2 year specialization in this where the only thing you study is this. I even heard of 1 dewsbury student who attended this course. I don't know if he finished? Anyway with regards to the timetable issue it's very worrying. When I went to sweden some people were eating 1 and a half hours after the shaykh had told them to stop...lol...that's how much of a difference there was...same is true of the UK. One of the few masters in this field is hadrat maulana yaqub qasmi db. He is very old but amongst the greatest ulema of the world. It is a pity that the UK community did not or do not benefit from him. When my friend accompanied him to daruloom bury the likes of mufti shabbir, shaykh abdur rahman etc were picking up his shoes. That shows his caliber...mufti shabir the man who said he can take on mufti taqi on tirmidhi...and who said he could write many more volumes to ibn hajar's fath ul bari and those that know him can vouch for his ilm. But look at his behviour infront of maualana yaqub qasmi. So those in the UK message to you...meet maulana yaqub qasmi...and those jokers that oppose him like a certain maulana from london can't compare to his ilm...that particular maulana's works are great copy and paste jobs from the internet....quoting shaykh salih al munajid from islam q and a lol....

The certain Maulana (from London) neither knows Fiqh nor science and has a FOUL-MOUTH and all he can do is disrespect Ulama and use foul language. His research is not worth the paper its written on and even his copy/paste skills are bad!

Shaykh (Maulana) Yaqoub Qasmi (DB) is a leading Faqih of UK and well respected amongst Kibar Ulama (like Mufti Rafi Usmani (DB)). Darul-uloom Bury should pick up his shoes, there is no contest there at all.

That is the whole issue in UK we don't have Ulama who are skilled in observation and also have knowledge of Astronomy and then also have profound knowledge of Fiqh.

Shaykh (Maulana) Yaqoub Qasmi (DB) is one of the few and Jealousy of British Muslims (laymen and Ulama) blinds them from accepting his view. They can’t deny his knowledge and expertise but they refuse to accept his verdict which is AN ABSURD position! How can you accept someone as expert and then reject his opinion while offering non-nense as alternative. [/quote]

From what its been explained to me,like colonel has stated, there is no leeway for fajr. fajr should be at 18 degrees for reasons mentioned by colonel sahib.

Or we can adopt 15 and follow the opinion of Shaykh (Mufti) Rasheed Ahmed Ludhyanwi (RA) afterall he is a trusted Mufti but we can't jig it like Esha to suit the Mussallees of our Mosque.

18 is an opinion adopted by more Scholars and it gives you longer time where sun doesn't go down so more oppurtunity for jigging.

The point of a Fatwa is to make the lives of the people as convenient as possible (where possible)

for all the brothers who want to go in detail with this issue (isha-fajr, hizbul ulama timetable mistakes etc) i can arrange a seminar with a clued up mufti who is well versed on this matter (especially the london brothers), brother london786 and others let me know and i will arrange it.

my masjid changed to the 18 degress timetable many years ago, here is what is writen explaining astronomical and persisting twilight and fajr and isha calculations:

Astronomical and Persisting Twilight:

During most of the year, the start times for Fajr and Isha are based on when the sun sets to and rises from the angle of 18* to the horizon, which is called Astronomical Twilight. However, for parts of the world that lie above 48* latitude (including the uk). During the months of may, june and july, the sun does not set below the angle of 15* to the horizon, hence there is to true Fajr and Isha. This phenomenon is called Persisting Twilight.

Islamic Juresprudence:

Since there is no true night during this period in the summer, we need to have estimated timings for Fajr and Isha. Islamic theologians have provided four methods that can be used to calculate these. For the rest of the year, the normal times for astronomical twilight based on 18* is used.

The four available methods are (of which there is no particular preference):
1) Nearest day Aqrab-al-ayyam

2) Nearest latitude Aqrab-al-balad

3) Middle of the night (nisf-al-lail)

4) One seventh of night (Suba-al-lail)

Fajr and Isha Calculations:
The following information shows the times of the year for which we have adopted these methods to calculate the start times of Fajr and Isha.

Fajr 1 jan - 22 may Astronomical Twilight (18*)
23 may - 21 july One seventh of night (suba-al-lail)
22nd july - 31 december Astronomical twilight (18*)

Isha 1 jan - 5 march Astronomical twilight (18*)
6 march - 8 october One senventh of the night (suba-al-lail)
9 oct - 31 december Astronomical twilight (18*)

The One seventh of the night method divided the period from sunset to sunrise into seven equal periods of which the first is for maghrib. The nect 5 parts are for Isha and last for Fajr. This has been used for hardship faced by UK muslims during the summer period when the days are extremely long and the noght are too short (in accordance to islamic law).

For further references refer to (SUBAH SADIQ AND SUBAH KADHIB) wriiten by professor abdul latif. To find out more details of twilight you can refer to "greenwich"

This timetable has been set under the guidence of: Mufti shafi, Mufti wali hassan tonqi, Mufti raza ul haq, Molana yusuf binnori, Molana ashraf ali thanvi and Molana zafar ahmed usmani (may allah taala shower his mercy upon them)

In my own unofficial conversations I have discovered that Ulama now agree with 18 degrees but they won't switch because they are scared of the people as Mussallees will question as to why Salah times switched when it was something different last year.

Mufti Yusuf Sacha's opinion about adopting the opinion within Shaf'ae Madhab makes Esha very easy and convenient and all British Muslims should look into this.

For fajar adopt 18 degrees and then adopt any of the four (4) methods to suit your needs because it gives us longer jigging and longer sleep during Ramadhan!

Simple pimple!

what is qabla shfaq ahmer?
what was the ruling for the bulgars?

aqrabul ayam?
sabal-layl?

if you explain the meanings by way of examples,even better.

Explained in the booklet except for "qabla shfaq ahmer" which simply means that Esha enters even before Red twilight

Bulgar was an area in today's Tartarstan (roughly 55 degree latitude) where Hanafees first encountered the problem of Shafaq (twlight) not disappearing and they had to perform Ijtehaad on how to pray Fajar & Esha

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tatarstan

It is the opinion of Mufti Yusuf Sacha that they adopted the ruling of "qabla shfaq ahmer" and prayed Esha very early to avoid inconvenience to people. It is documented that people in the city were perplexed and torubled by very late Esha. [quote]

it makes sense seeing as eisha time does not actually exist in certain times in the UK. so one could pray eisha straight after maghrib or delay eisha and pray it just before fajr.

And Finally my post ALMOST 1 YEAR AGO!

I have begged Mufti Yusuf Sacha to give a detailed Fatwa on the issue which I will endeavour to translate and distribute on the web (or whatever)

Because I don't think that this issue affects me, Br Ansari, Hope1 & Enigma but it affects the all British Muslims and it will actually hit us in Ramadhan in 2 years time. and then everybody will be running around like a head-less chicken!

If we want to have a coalition of Sunniforumer's visit Mufti Yusuf Sacha and ask for a Fatwa in writing and then translate it, I am game...Who is ready?

Don't all rise at once

P.S: Br Ansari I have a fever and I will respond when I am ready Insha'Alllah