[constanyiskancho]

Does the mutazalite school of islam still exist at all today?

[Laqswrnm]

The movement emerged in the Umayyad Era, and reached its height in the Abassid period. Scholarship on the movement stagnated for centuries owing to an absence of sympathetic accounts of the movement (and an abundance of hostile accounts) until the latter 20th century, when the 11th century texts of Abd al-Jabbar al-Qadi were unearthed in Yemen.
It is still adopted by some Muslim scholars and intellectuals today.

[constanyiskancho]

does anyone have a good resource for learning more about it?

[Laqswrnm]

does anyone have a good resource for learning more about it?

http://www.mutazila.com/

[somamasoso]

Assalam o 'alaykum,

If you can read Urdu:

http://www.4shared.com/document/mCKCyMHK/Mutazilah.html

[constanyiskancho]

thanks xtreme.

On a somewhat unrelated note. What is the view on sikhism. It appears to me to be completely monotheistic, but more reasonable in its beliefs at time than islam. At other time it does not, and I can appreciate that islam seems to have a more developed theology/philosophy etc.... but islamic culture seems to have committed intellectual suicide (with few exceptions). I think at least part of this stems from living in islamic societies in which politics and religion are so intertwined that they have corrupted each other.

What I am looking for is a way to approach God. My only strongly held belief is that their is only one God, and reason and theology should cooexist. I also believe strongly in freedom of thought and religion, and I have been concerned about islamic thoughts on these matters.

I am interested in islam and sikhism because both of the these groups have presented me with examples of piety and conviction... and of course they both believe in one God. Any discussion would be appreciated.. I am taking the night off.

I also love the extreme monotheism of islam. It is the discouragement of inquiry and free thinking that scares me about Islam.

[Laqswrnm]

The first man Prophet Adam (AS) also gave the dawah of Islam.
Islam is not even a religion it's a deen too and that is it's +point, all of the other are just religions but somewhat corrupted.

The previous Holy books ie ; Psalms , Torah , Bible were Kitab ullah but Quran is Kalam ullah + kitab ullah.

Hazrat Ali (RA) said, When I want to say something to Allah I start offering prayer but I want that Allah say something to me I start reciting Quran.

I don't know what is the story behind Sikhism & how it was originated.

To get closer to Allah is the remembrance of Allah

[autolubitelone]

What I am looking for is a way to approach God. My only strongly held belief is that their is only one God, and reason and theology should cooexist. I also believe strongly in freedom of thought and religion, and I have been concerned about islamic thoughts on these matters.

I am interested in islam and sikhism because both of the these groups have presented me with examples of piety and conviction... and of course they both believe in one God. Any discussion would be appreciated.. I am taking the night off.

I also love the extreme monotheism of islam. It is the discouragement of inquiry and free thinking that scares me about Islam.

I am glad you got it right with the oneness of God. Maybe there are few misunderstandings about Islam that you might have that must be restraining you from it.

I dont know where you got the idea that Islam discourages inquiry and free thinking. Allah says in the Quran: "and say: `My Lord! Increase me in knowledge" [Quran, 20:114]
The first word revealed in the Quran is 'Iqra' which means to read.
He clearly commands us to seek knowledge.

But some people use 'free thinking' to just create trouble, they just want to argue. Thats is disliked. Allah has clearly said: "...Nor defame one another" (Quran 49:11)

If you have more doubts please post, InshAllah someone here will help you understand the correct stand of Islam.

[mincbiori]

Knowledge is a must in Islam, hence there is inquiry and free thinking. However this inquiry and free thinking must not take the person past the boundaries of Islam where a person will begin questioning the laws of Islam and accepting the laws of other ideologies.

[constanyiskancho]

Yes, but who makes these determinations?

I don't want to say things that are offensive, but a faith not questioned and wrestled with is not much of a faith.

The islam that is practiced today was formed in its entirety over generations of wrestling with these questions... but it appears to me that islamic thought decided to stop developing. When I read of early islamic thinkers... I marvel at their creativity and free thinking. Now Islam tends to be very reactionary... and islamic society lags behind the rest of the world... a world that it used to lead.

Polymaths, astrologist, avicenna, averroes... this is the Islam I am interested in. The islamic world of today... I can't imagine this intellectual vigor in the current ummah.

[autolubitelone]

Yes, but who makes these determinations?

Answer is simple. Allah the Almighty has mentioned these boundaries clearly in the Quran and Hadith.
We are not supposed to make bend the rules mentioned by Allah.

Yes i agree Muslim at present are not at par. But rather looking at the creations look at the Creator. Look in the Quran, you will see how beautiful Islam is, you will understand how satisfactory obeying our Creator is. For one moment forget about other people. Think about the relationship between you and your Creator. Isn't it our duty to obey him.

[Vodonaeva]

Look up the talks of a guy named Gary Miller.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yw7hUkppT9c

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pf4p09pb4hE&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mkofNXRQAg4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FtNuvKs0ypM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6zQVSM_3A5o

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9aGD27S1ym0

[Sandvikla]

Salam

I don`t know much abt the mutazila (except for the quran being "created" fitna). I want to know are they muslim?

like scholars say they're not from ahlussunah wa jama...but does that mean they're like ismaili's or qadianis and thus kafirs. or are they muslims with a messed up (budah) aqeedah like a hypothetical anthropomorphist "muslim" group.

[autolubitelone]

Yea this the age where ppl follow Sheik Google. lol.

[hellencomstar]

Yes, but who makes these determinations?

I don't want to say things that are offensive, but a faith not questioned and wrestled with is not much of a faith.

The islam that is practiced today was formed in its entirety over generations of wrestling with these questions... but it appears to me that islamic thought decided to stop developing. When I read of early islamic thinkers... I marvel at their creativity and free thinking. Now Islam tends to be very reactionary... and islamic society lags behind the rest of the world... a world that it used to lead.

Polymaths, astrologist, avicenna, averroes... this is the Islam I am interested in. The islamic world of today... I can't imagine this intellectual vigor in the current ummah.

A very good day to you, fine sir.

I would question your usage of such terms as 'reactionary.' For one, it points to a sort of view of 'development' and 'progress,' nebulous terms though they may be, as the torch shining on the endless mountain that humanity must climb. It supposes that the 'advancements' made by humanity in recent times are an innate good, and it infers all sorts of other things that I will not go into because your worldview may vary wildly from what I am assuming it to be and thusly I would not want to reach such groundless conclusions that are beyond the very basics spoken of in your post.

For one, reason is subservient to Allah , not the other way around. This is because 'reason' as you have dubbed it, is exercised by mankind. The speech of Allah is here; it is all the speech we're going to get. It encourages exploration of the world, and of concepts, and encourages the development of rich and manifold ways of thinking- but these ways of thinking must have as their starting basis the Qur'an, not 'reason,' which is again something that cannot be expressed in a manner that is not subservient to the dominant sociological contexts of the age. People have used 'reason' to conclude ghastly things; does this cast aspersions on reason itself... no. Does this cast aspersions on the doctrine which concludes reason to be a goal in and of itself, without first making it bow before Allah as all else must? I would argue that it does.

Science is a method. It is not a goal. 'Progress' is not something that is innately good in and of itself, mostly because it does not mean anything in and of itself beyond a series of emotional images that are brought up in the mind. The Islamic civilization prospered because of their faith, not in spite of it, but the widening spread of corruption brought it down once, and it did so again and again and this is not because of a defect in the Islamic frame of mind, not at all. This is because of the faith that the Ummah had and that it subsequently lost, a faith that filled the brothers and sisters of the time with a deep yearning to dig under the earth, deep into the crust that Allah has surrounded his earth with, and see what treasures could be found.

But now here we are, and the dominant export of the Islamic world is oil, not philosophy, nor scientific discoveries. This is true. But this is because everything has been made subservient not to Allah but to the very doctrine of progress you have mentioned.

The muck and mire we are stewed in is of our own making, but it can be fixed. when it is, the world will be back on bended knee and turned towards Allah . But this cannot be done by playing the game that the Islamic world has been playing, that the leaders have made it play. We tried that (read up on the twenties to the sixties in the Arab world) and it went bad, solely because of the very concept of making ourselves subservient to 'reason' instead of to Him whom we should be making ourselves subservient is abominable and insane in more ways than I can count.

I implore you to reconsider some of the conclusions you have reached. As brightly as they shine in the light of the twenty-first century, that light is cheap and flinty like the neon glow of Vegas, so transitory and so fleeting, while the nur of Allah is a light that can never go out, even if all creation were to be spurred against it (naudhubillah).

[constanyiskancho]

That was a very interesting post aspirer.

I would post a couple of my objections, but I am sure that you can already predict what I would say and I can see not progress made from such back and forth. I am a westerner, and while much evil (nuclear weapons, wars, etc) has been caused by reason... soo much good has as well (medical advancements, vaccines, etc.) I do agree that reason must be subject to God, but I think that should be left to the individual...when I die I will not be able to say this sheikh said that... this scholar said this... I don't think God will accept this.

I am going to try and take a few weeks to let this stirr around in my head, and to pray.

Thanks for the post! Very very very enlightening...

[hellencomstar]

That was a very interesting post aspirer.

I would post a couple of my objections, but I am sure that you can already predict what I would say and I can see not progress made from such back and forth. I am a westerner, and while much evil (nuclear weapons, wars, etc) has been caused by reason... soo much good has as well (medical advancements, vaccines, etc.) I do agree that reason must be subject to God, but I think that should be left to the individual...when I die I will not be able to say this sheikh said that... this scholar said this... I don't think God will accept this.

I am going to try and take a few weeks to let this stirr around in my head, and to pray.

Thanks for the post! Very very very enlightening...

I thank you for your kind words after reading my ramblings. I would only like to note that I, too, am a Westerner, having been born and raised in the heart of world finance (NYC), and that I reverted myself. I may have a slight inkling of where you're coming from in this regard.

[costamarianavia]

The previous Holy books ie ; Psalms , Torah , Bible were Kitab ullah but Quran is Kalam ullah + kitab ullah.

What do you mean by the above statement brother? Where are you getting the explanation of kitabullaah vs kalamullaah from?

[Laqswrnm]

What do you mean by the above statement brother? Where are you getting the explanation of kitabullaah vs kalamullaah from?

I mean the previous books were for the nation of that time. But Quran is for the nation of all times, and it's like Allah is live saying you something.

SOURCE: Maulana Tariq Jameel BAYAN

[Laqswrnm]

What do you mean by the above statement brother? Where are you getting the explanation of kitabullaah vs kalamullaah from?

I mean the previous books were for the nation of that time. But Quran is for the nation of all times, and it's like Allah is live saying you something.

SOURCE: Maulana Tariq Jameel BAYAN