[qQVXpYM6]

Assalaamu alaykum, so i am discussing some things with a ahle hadeeth guy. He cliams tariqahs are bidah and nothing good comes from them.

So i showed some quotes about ibn taymiyyah , the ones where he talks about abdal qadirs tariqah being the greatest, but the guy says that doesnt show how ibn taymiyya followed a tariqah. Also told him about ibn taymiyyahs commentary in majmu fatawa vol 10 1st edition riyadh.

Is there anymore evidences that ibn taymiyya is a qadiri ?
Are tariqahs bidah ?

Jzk,wsalaam

Ibn Taymiyya is a qadiri?? I have never heard that and if this is true I am going to do a halaal dance. I thought Ibn Taymiyya was staunch against tasawwuf but his student turned around and wrote a big book on tasawwuf? Maybe I misunderstood, I do have a weak understanding of things.

Reading this thread I have come to realize we have some big time Ulama on this thread, on sunniforum, jayyid Ulama who can pinpoint the most subtle points in deen - you mean all of these big scholars from all over the world never thought tariq to be biddat, all of these big buzrughs passed practicing preaching and furthering their tariqs,these are people who willingly gave up several halaal things just to abstain from one haraam thing but no they never found this subtle point that what they were practicing was biddat, yet here we have these intelligent people who are finding the truth behind these tariqs that they are all innovations..wah. Sunniforum is truly an amazing place. I know sunniforum doesnt advocate this jahalath.

[xtrupoke]

here is what i showed him about ibn taymiyya :

Ibn Taymiyya claimed to be a Qadiri Sufi in a direct line of succession to Shaykh `Abd al-Qadir al-Gilani. He had great admiration for `Abd al-Qadir Gilani (commentary on Futuh al-ghayb volume 10:455-548 of the first Riyadh editionof the Majmu` fatawa Ibn Taymiyya) and in a manuscript of the Yusuf ibn `Abd al Hadi al-Hanbali entitled Bad’ al ‘ilqa bi labs al khirqa (The beginning of the shield in the wearing of the Sufi cloak), Ibn Taymiyya is listed within a Sufi spiritual genealogy with other well known Hanbali scholars. The links in this genealogy are, in descending order: `Abd al-Qadir al-Gilani (d. 561) - Abu `Umar ibn Qudama (d. 607) - Muwaffaq al Din ibn Qudama (d. 620) - Ibn Abi `Umar ibn Qudama (d. 682) - Ibn Taymiyya (d. 728) - Ibn Qayyim al Jawziyya (d. 751) - Ibn Rajab (d. 795)(Both Abu `Umar ibn Qudama and his brother Muwaffaq al-Din received the khirqa directly from Abd al-Qadir himself.) And in Ibn Taymiyyas own words: “I have worn the Sufi cloak of a number of shaykhs belonging to various tariqas (labistu khirqata at tasawwuf min turuqi jama’atin min al shuyukhi), among them the Shaykh `Abd al-Qadir al Jili, whose tariqa is the greatest of the well known ones. Further on he says: The greatest Sufi Way (ajall al-turuq) is that of my master(sayyidi) `Abd al-Qadir al Jili, may Allah have mercy on him.” (Ibn `Abd al Hadi, Bad’ al ‘ilqa bi labs al khirqa, ms. al-Hadi, Princeton Library Arabic Collection, fols. 154a, 169b, 171b 172a; and Damascus University, copy of original Arabic manuscript, 985H.; also mentioned in at Talyani, manuscript Chester Beatty 3296 (8) in Dublin, fol. 67a). And in one of Ibn Taymiyyas own books he writes “I wore the blessed Sufi cloak of `Abd al-Qadir, there being between him and me two shaykhs.” (Manuscript Damascus, Zahiriyya #1186 H).

[UTHZzJ6f]

Sheikh Ul Islam Imam Ibn Taymiyya rahimuhullah has somehow become a standard of comparasion when it comes to religious issues.Search out any forum of any sect and you will see that the most discussed scholar is Imam Ibn Taymiyya,which itself says about his credentials.Sheikh Ul Islam ra was born in the age of huge turbulence when the muslim world was literally falling apart.The winds of Irtitaad and cruelty had taken over and the muslims were encircled by 4 main issues.First,the mongols under the leadership of Ghazan khan were massacring the Muslims.Two,the shias of that era had joined hands with the mongols and were enjoying good relations with them.They were using this privilege to butcher innocent sunni Muslims.Thirdly,the christian missionaries were very active in Muslim areas where they used to bribe the hardship-ridden Muslims to convert to Christianity.Fourthly,the biggest threat however was from with in.The Sufis under the banners of "Wahdat Ul Wajood" were in the primary mode of activating their Bidaats.They were mostly influenced by the shia ideology and Greek mythology.Innocent Muslims were falling into their traps and the Sufis were irrelevant to what was happening around them.
This was the age of such a Fitna and Fasaad,mass deception and cruelity that Sheikh Ul Islam Imam Ibn Taymiyya ra was born. This Batal-e-Haq took the sword of Ilm in his hands and went out in the battle field against the tyrants and the mubtadies.He took the Shia and the sufis to task first and wrote voluminous books to refute them.He wrote "Minhajus sunnah Wal Nabuwaa" to refute the shias and "Al-Furqan baina Aulia -ar-Rahman wa Auliaish-Shaitan" to refute the sufis.He also did takfeer of the Sheikh E Akbar of Sufis,Ibn Arabi.Sheikh Ul Islam Ibn taymiyya ra faced a strict opposition from all these factions and he was jailed and tortured many times and then he used to say
"“What can my enemies do to me? I have in my breast both my heaven and my garden. If I travel they are with me, never leaving me. Imprisonment for me is a chance to be alone with my Lord. To be killed is martyrdom and to be exiled from my land is a spiritual journey.’
The status of his knowledge can be measured by the chain of students which he produced,all of which laters revived Islam and did extraordinary intellectual work. Imam Ibn Qayum ra,Imam Ibn Kathir ra,Imam Dhahabi ra were his direct student. He,sheikh Ul Islam ra, stood up in the hardest of times,survived the harshest winds of tyranny,his pen was his sword and his great intellect was the safeguard of Deen e Ibrahimi. May Allah have mercy on him and may Allah save us from attributing lies to him to make our nafs happy.Ameen
Oxford university press published a great book on the life of Sheikh Ul Islam Ibn Taymiiya ra " Ibn Taymiyya and his times" and can be purchased from
here.http://www.oupcanada.com/catalog/9780195478341.html
Shaykh Ahmed Ali on Ibn Taymiyya ra http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vCMbe...eature=related

[xtrupoke]

If someone can post the part where ibn taYmiyyah cliams he followed the qadiri silsala from majmu fatawa vol 10 first edition printed in riyadh , i would be very greatful .

Jzk

[UTHZzJ6f]

If someone can post the part where ibn taYmiyyah cliams he followed the qadiri silsala from majmu fatawa vol 10 first edition printed in riyadh , i would be very greatful .

Jzk

Sallams.Ibn taymiyya is the standard of Haq for you brother? Instead if you find a straight answer to my question,i will do your bayat today.

The burden of proof for no good reason has been dropped at my shoulders ( circular arguments).However, I would like to ask a few basic questions and would see if any evidence can be given for that.
1.The Naqashbandi Tareeqah supposedly originated from Abu Bakr Al-Sadeeq ra. Kindly, tell me how many "mureeds" did he have? How many Wazaif did he give and how many times he used this word "Naqashbandeya"?
2.The Seharwardi,Qadri,chishti Tarqaas supposedly originated from Ali Ibn Talib ra.Kindly,with historical evidence, tell me how many mureeds did he have? Did he ever ask the people to follow any of these tariqas?
3.Why almost all of these tariqas were started by the Persian and the arabs remained deprived of this"" barakaa"?

[UTHZzJ6f]

A small book written by Imam Ibn Taymiyya ra in which he has refuted the basic sufi claims.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/50936350/A...uf-ki-Haqeeqat

Ibn Taymiyya ra's detailed views on tasawuf from his book.
http://www.box.net/shared/o2hp03myky

[Accor$314]

If someone can post the part where ibn taYmiyyah cliams he followed the qadiri silsala from majmu fatawa vol 10 first edition printed in riyadh , i would be very greatful .

Jzk

An interesting book for the wahabi ( pseudo-salafi ) people is available below.

---------------------
Sufism and the Imams of the Salafi Movement

http://www.deoband.org/2010/11/tasaw...-introduction/

In spite of my various engagements and many misdeeds, I began work by first of all selecting the writings of Shaykh Imam Muhammad bin ‘Abd al-Wahhab and Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyyah. I thereafter selected four more great personalities from the leaders and imams of the Salafi movement because of the trust placed by Imam Muhammad bin ‘Abd al-Wahhab on their knowledge and leadership, and due to the fact they are all from among the foremost students of Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyyah (may Allah mercy them).

-----------------------

[loginereQQ]

1.There is not a single narration from Abu Bakr Al-Sadeeq ra or Ali Ibn Talib ra about any Tariqa so first of all for me,its attributing a lie to them.
2.These Tariqas were not practiced by any Sahabi during or after the life of Syedna Mohamad SWS though if any such thing factually existed,the two Sahaba karam should have been having thousands of Mureeds and in that case we should have been having thousands of such narrations but not a single one.
3.The concept of "Sawab" is assosiated with tariqas and there is no Shari proof for any tariqa' nor the sahaba karam practiced any such thing though they could so its Bidaa'h.

Dear Brother, Assalaamoalaikum

First of all let us consider the issue of Bid’a.

Bid’a is any addition to the Deen – addition to what Allah(SWT) Has Said / Instructed, and subsequently as explained/ taught by the Holy Messenger(SAW). An addition can only occur if made compulsory. Suppose I say that everyone should pray five rakaat for the fard salaah for Zohar. This would be an addition, and, therefore bid’a. But if I tell my friend that I pray 1000 rakaat nawafil every night, he cannot say that I am adding to the Deen because my personal action does not make it compulsory on any other person.

Further, let us assume that neither the Holy Messenger(SAW) nor any of the Sahaba(ra) ever prayed 1000 rakaats nawafil every night. Is my action then a bid’a? Is my action bid’a because neither the Holy Messenger(SAW) nor any of the Sahaba(ra) ever did so?

We could list a lot of “religious” actions like the one above that are being practised on a purely individual / community / group level and such actions have never been declared compulsory upon anyone. Please note that looking down upon someone because he does not do what I do would qualify the action as being compulsory, and, therefore, bid’a.

On several threads, I have put the question “Why did the Holy messenger(SAW) or the Sahaba(ra) not do a certain action?” To date no one has attempted any reply. May be, if we could understand the reason(s) why neither the Holy messenger(SAW) nor any of the Sahaba ever practised certain “religious actions” that are done today, then may be we will be able to review our stand as to what is bid’a and what is not.

Let us now return to the topic under discussion – Tareeqa.

Religion, any religion, consists of two parts, viz. the exoteric part and the esoteric part. The exoteric part comprises all physical actions, rituals, and is defined by a list of Do’s and Don’ts. The esoteric part deals with the Ghaib, the Hidden Part. In general, the exoteric part is addressed to all with only a relative few who venture into the esoteric part.

Similarly in Islam, we have the exoteric part that comprises of the five pillars of Islam, and the list of Do’s and Don’ts derived from the Holy Qur’an and the Hadiths of the Holy Messenger(SAW). The Sharia addresses this exoteric part of the Deen, that part that is meant for one and all. It is this exoteric part that the Holy Messenger(SAW) expounded upon through his sayings and actions. His mission, as a guide, was to teach his community how to reach the starting point of the steep path. His mission was just this. He was not sent for the elite. He was sent for the common man – for one and all. By “common man” we understand those individuals who would do as little as possible – more as obedience to Allah(SWT) than anything else.

The exoteric part ensures a first polishing of the soul. But the rest is not yet over. And it is that remaining part that brings one closer and closer to Allah(SWT). It is this part that gives the heart its full purity, so pure that it contains nothing but love for Allah(SWT).

Tareeqa means PATH. May also mean METHOD as mentioned by one of our brothers. In this quest for proximity with Allah(SWT), we have a one – one relationship. It is a relationship between an individual and his Creator, Allah(SWT). This being a unique relationship, the Holy Messenger’s (SAW) mission stopped short of it, knowing full well, however, that anyone who would have adhered strictly to the exoteric part would be ready for the esoteric one.

When we recite Surah Al-Faateha, we invoke Allah(SWT) to “Show us the straight path” or “Guide us to the straight path”, and we add “ the path of those with whom You are Pleased”. So, the straight path is the path trodden by those with whom Allah(SWT) Is Pleased. And we are asking Allah(SWT) to show us this path that has been trodden upon by such of His Creation.

Also Allah(SWT) Himself Invites us to “Ask those who know”. Those who know how to take the steep path, how to overcome the various obstacles in the way to the final bliss of being close, very close to Allah(SWT). One may say that Allah(SWT) Says that “Guidance rests with Allah(SWT)”. No doubt, but then why did He Say: “Ask those who know.”

This is the purpose of a tareeqa. Some need others (with experience) to show them the way, to accompany them along that way so as to provide support when one is on the point of faltering, to permit one to overcome the various obstacles (and there are many) that one may come across along such a steep path. The purpose of a tareeqa being such, it is considered necessary by some to be guided by a living Knowledgeable person – a living Shaykh. Some go to Shaykh A, some to Shaykh B etc… different Shaykhs, different experiences, different methods, different ways – different tareeqas , all leading to proximity with Allah(SWT). Some prefer the forest or the desert, to seek Allah(SWT). This is also a tareeqa.

At the esoteric level, issues like should I fold our arms under the navel or above or on the chest do not arise. At this level, one’s heart goes to Allah(SWT) so that as one progresses along that steep path, gradually the heart gets enveloped with love for Allah(SWT) until a point is reached when the heart contains love but for Allah(SWT) only. Consequently, we may say that at the esoteric level, our Ullama, in general, have no function. Our Ullama operate at the exoteric level, and are not “qualified” to discuss and / or express their opinions as regards matters belonging to the esoteric level. No doubt, there are exceptions.

Last but not least, we may say that the Holy Messenger(SAW) was the Shaykh of his tareeqa, and the Sahaba (ra) were his mureeds. Let us remember that the Sahaba(ra) used to do jihad during the day, and spend the night doing dhikr for Allah(SWT). The Sahaba (ra) , at least those close to the Holy Messenger(SAW) had already attained the esoteric level due to the depth of their Eemaan, their love for Allah(SWT) and for the Holy Messenger(SAW). Worldly things had no importance to them. No doubt, the Sahaba(ra) needed no special Shaykh and other tareeqa but that lived by the Holy Messenger(SAW).

Brotherly yours
farook

[exschke]

http://www.seekingilm.com/archives/16

[exschke]

The burden of proof for no good reason has been dropped at my shoulders ( circular arguments).However, I would like to ask a few basic questions and would see if any evidence can be given for that.
1.The Naqashbandi Tareeqah supposedly originated from Abu Bakr Al-Sadeeq ra. Kindly, tell me how many "mureeds" did he have? How many Wazaif did he give and how many times he used this word "Naqashbandeya"?

The Hanbali Madhab supposedly originated from Imam Ahmad :rahmaL. How many times did he use the word "Hanbaliyia?"

Conclusion: dr ati is a Mubtadi` for ascribing himself to the group called Hanbali.

3.Why almost all of these tariqas were started by the Persian and the arabs remained deprived of this"" barakaa"?

Why almost off of these Hadith compilations were written by the Persian and the arabs remained deprived of this "" barakaa"?

Conclusion: Hadith compilations are bida`, and must not be trusted.

Of course, I don't believe either of these statements, just applying dr ati's logic to other scenarios.

[Accor$314]

http://www.seekingilm.com/archives/16

Great article. The pseudo-salafis are busted !!

[DianaDrk]

Alhamdulillah for the blessed bid`a of tariqas. Tariqas have saved humanity.

[UTHZzJ6f]

The thread has turned into a circular argument as was expected.My questions still stand valid.I will provide a detailed reply to brother farook in a day. Meanwhile,here are two thought provoking articles which were read out in " Ulama wa mashaikh conference" and were later published in Jang newspaper.Give them a read as they have alot of substance.
http://www.jang.com.pk/jang/may2010-...-2010/col2.htm
http://www.jang.com.pk/jang/may2010-...-2010/col7.htm

[UTHZzJ6f]

1.The Naqashbandi Tareeqah supposedly originated from Abu Bakr Al-Sadeeq ra. Kindly, tell me how many "mureeds" did he have? How many Wazaif did he give and how many times he used this word "Naqashbandeya"?

2.The Seharwardi,Qadri,chishti Tarqaas supposedly originated from Ali Ibn Talib ra.Kindly,with historical evidence, tell me how many mureeds did he have? Did he ever ask the people to follow any of these tariqas?

3.Why almost all of these tariqas were started by the Persian and the arabs remained deprived of this"" barakaa"?

A straight answer like the one including number of Mureeds of ABu Bakr AL-Sadiq ra,his given wazaif,khanqah etc shall be appreciated.

[UTHZzJ6f]

The Hanbali Madhab supposedly originated from Imam Ahmad :rahmaL. How many times did he use the word "Hanbaliyia?"

Conclusion: dr ati is a Mubtadi` for ascribing himself to the group called Hanbali.



Why almost off of these Hadith compilations were written by the Persian and the arabs remained deprived of this "" barakaa"?

Conclusion: Hadith compilations are bida`, and must not be trusted.

Of course, I don't believe either of these statements, just applying dr ati's logic to other scenarios.

Circular arguments to skip the question. The Hanbali Madhab is attributed to Imam Ahmed bin Hanbal ra with evidence of his work.How many books ABu Bakr Al-sadiq ra wrote on naqshbandi tariqa which is attributed to him?
I know how many students Imam Ahmed ra had to whom he used to teach Quran and sunnah. Are you aware of the naqashbandi mureeds of Abu Bakr Al-sadiq ra?

According to your opinion,there is Ijmaa' on the 4 madhabs and thats what you tell the" Ghair Muqalids". Show any Ijmaa' on the tariqas. Ijmaa' is one of your Adila e Arbaa'.

Dont falsify the madhabs to prove a bidaah.Instead,construct some solid arguments in the favor of your tariqas. Hundreds of Hadith and history books are out there in which the life of the blessed Sahaba karam has been narrated quite eloquently and you cant provide an evidence from that,instead you have to use unfalsifiable hypothesis to "prove" it.

[UTHZzJ6f]

Let me add some empirical evidence to it.The head of the naqashbandi tariqa is Nazzim-uddin.Watch out these videos and tell me if you really think that its how Abu Bakr Al-sadiq ra about whom Syedna Mohamad SWS said that the Eman of Abu Bakr is greater than the rest of my Ummah', used to beahve and teach?
1.The head of Naqashbandi tariqa,"sultan Ul Awlya".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JAhrD0yVSMA

2.The false Mehdi,Maloon Gohar shahi with Sheikh Hisham Naqashbandi
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vtVh8pKq7BQ

3. Hisham kabbani ,deputy of and son in law of Nazzim Uddin Saying NO to khilafa'.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WxCiTM3gaow

Wallahi , Abu Bakar Al-Sadiq ra was not like this.

[mincbiori]

He's a Naqshbandi Haqqani, and it's known Haqqanis have quite a but of wishy washiness in it. Most on the forum will agree with this.. well at least the ones you're discussing with.

Why not check out Naqshbandi Mujaddidis, you will find they are very different than Haqqanis.

[nuncEtedben]

Imam al-Dhahabi and Sufism
http://www.deoband.org/2011/03/tasaw...bi-and-sufism/

Hafiz Ibn al-Qayyim and Sufism
http://www.deoband.org/2011/02/tasaw...fism-part-one/

http://www.deoband.org/2011/03/tasaw...fism-part-two/

Shaykh Muhammad bin ‘Abd al-Wahhab and Sufism
http://www.deoband.org/2011/01/tasaw...ab-and-sufism/
-----------------------------------------------------------
Generally all scholars of Past were deviant with exception of modern day self righteous individual deluded in their knowledge (lack of it). Someone claiming to be sufi is not sufficient to be classed a sufi. Similarly Ahmedia are not classed as muslim because they say so. There are some sciences have to be followed. Mr. Haqqani and his likes do not constitutes the entire body of Sufiyas in a similar way criminal who happen to be muslim do not reflect the muslim of the world.

[SawbasyWrab]

And what evidence do you provide that the personality is the head of the Naqshbandi tariqa?

You are confused and also confusing me :P

There is a group that believes that a man name Khadiani was a prophet therefore should I accept it?

Now just because someone makes a claim of a connection to Sahabah does not mean that the actual original formation of the Tariqah's are attributed to those claims.

I suggest you get some classic texts on the tariqa's and see what they say.....

Please do not bother responding to my comment since I will not be reading this thread any more

[UTHZzJ6f]

Imam al-Dhahabi and Sufism
http://www.deoband.org/2011/03/tasaw...bi-and-sufism/

Hafiz Ibn al-Qayyim and Sufism
http://www.deoband.org/2011/02/tasaw...fism-part-one/

http://www.deoband.org/2011/03/tasaw...fism-part-two/

Shaykh Muhammad bin ‘Abd al-Wahhab and Sufism
http://www.deoband.org/2011/01/tasaw...ab-and-sufism/
-----------------------------------------------------------
Generally all scholars of Past were deviant with exception of modern day self righteous individual deluded in their knowledge (lack of it). Someone claiming to be sufi is not sufficient to be classed a sufi. Similarly Ahmedia are not classed as muslim because they say so. There are some sciences have to be followed. Mr. Haqqani and his likes do not constitutes the entire body of Sufiyas in a similar way criminal who happen to be muslim do not reflect the muslim of the world.

Are these three personalities the standard of Haq for you? Or do you agree with whatever they said?
For the highlighted portion; Its your personal opinion or the Ulama say so?Kindly , show me a fatwa against Mr Haqqani or even a general condemnation would do it and i will retreat from my stance.