[Maserati]

Assalaamu 'Alaikoem wa Rahmatullah,

1. When you reach LA ILAHA you make a ring and raise
your index finger and at ILL ALLAH you put it down
and hold the ring with the lowered stretched index
finger until the end of salaah.

2. Some say the same as above but when saying ILL
ALLAH you must put your hand back in original position
back on your thigh.

3. Some say just keep your hand on your thigh and
raise the index finger without making a circle at
LA ILAHA and put it down at ILL ALLAH.

Can some knowledgeable brothers make clear which of the three is the most agreed among the Ahnaf Shuyookh ?

JazakumAllah khayran

[Alina20100]

*bump*

[clubcughSheet]

http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/show...t=index+finger

http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/show...t=index+finger

[Maserati]

http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/show...t=index+finger

http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/show...t=index+finger

There is a lot of different comments by different brothers, akhi. That's why I asked which among the three is the most agreed upon by 'ulema in order to follow the majority.

[Snweyuag]

Mufti Abdurrahman bin Yusuf said that the first option is the correct one according to Hanafi madhhab but I still see the imam of our masjid place his hand back to resting position after raising his finger.

[freevideom]

Assalaamu 'Alaikoem wa Rahmatullah,

1. When you reach LA ILAHA you make a ring and raise
your index finger and at ILL ALLAH you put it down
and hold the ring with the lowered stretched index
finger until the end of salaah.

2. Some say the same as above but when saying ILL
ALLAH you must put your hand back in original position
back on your thigh.

3. Some say just keep your hand on your thigh and
raise the index finger without making a circle at
LA ILAHA and put it down at ILL ALLAH.

Can some knowledgeable brothers make clear which of the three is the most agreed among the Ahnaf Shuyookh ?

JazakumAllah khayran

Walikum-us-salam wr wb.

1 is the most agreed upon among the hanafis.

I have seen a lot of tableeghi akabir and ulema offer their salah, and all of them follow what you wrote in point 1.

[RealCHEAPsoftDOWNLOAD]

Assalaamu 'Alaikoem wa Rahmatullah,

1. When you reach LA ILAHA you make a ring and raise
your index finger and at ILL ALLAH you put it down
and hold the ring with the lowered stretched index
finger until the end of salaah.

2. Some say the same as above but when saying ILL
ALLAH you must put your hand back in original position
back on your thigh.

3. Some say just keep your hand on your thigh and
raise the index finger without making a circle at
LA ILAHA and put it down at ILL ALLAH.

Can some knowledgeable brothers make clear which of the three is the most agreed among the Ahnaf Shuyookh ?

JazakumAllah khayran

Ibn Abedin quotes the difference of opinions among the Ulamas, and then concludes supporting the first option.
But there is a little change. You make a ring when you reach Shahada i.e. Ashhadu, then raise your finger upon reaching LA ILAHA and at ILL ALLAH you put it down and hold the ring with the lowered stretched index finger until the end of salaah.

And Allah knows best.

[Maserati]

Ibn Abedin quotes the difference of opinions among the Ulamas, and then concludes supporting the first option.
But there is a little change. You make a ring when you reach Shahada i.e. Ashhadu, then raise your finger upon reaching LA ILAHA and at ILL ALLAH you put it down and hold the ring with the lowered stretched index finger until the end of salaah.

And Allah knows best.

JazakumAllah khayran all. Brother yousuf, is the change about making a ring when reaching 'Shahada' part of Ibn Abidin's quote ? And do you've to keep the finger lowered before giving salaam and then bring it in the first position or keeping it that stretched while giving salaam ?

[RealCHEAPsoftDOWNLOAD]

JazakumAllah khayran all. Brother yousuf, is the change about making a ring when reaching 'Shahada' part of Ibn Abidin's quote ?

Yes that is part of Ibn Abidin's quote. He writes in Raddul Muhtar:

كما ذكرت عباراتهم في رسالة سميتها [ رفع التردد في عقد الأصابع عند التشهد ] وحررت فيها أنه ليس لنا سوى قولين : الأول وهو المشهور في المذهب بسط الأصابع بدون إشارة .
الثاني بسط الأصابع إلى حين الشهادة ، فيعقد عندها ويرفع السبابة عند النفي ويضعها عند الإثبات ، وهذا ما اعتمده المتأخرون لثبوته عن النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم بالأحاديث الصحيحة ولصحة نقله عن أئمتنا الثلاثة
"...As I mentioned their quotes in my book, named: 'Raf'ut taraddud fi akdil asabi'i indat tashahhud'. And I wrote there that we have only two opinions in this issue. 1. And that's well known in our madhab, that is, to simply keep the fingers, without Ishara (without making ring and raising finger).
2. Keeping fingers spread until Shahada, then to make ring at that time, and raise forefinger at the time of Nafi (La Ilaha) and keeping it back at Isbat (Illallah). This is what Muta'akhirin have relied on, as it is proved from Prophet (sm) by Sahih ahadith, and as it is reported with truth from our three imams."

Then he writes in Raf'ut taraddud fi akdil asabi'i indat tashahhud:

و الصحيح المختار عند جمهور اصحابنا انه يضع كفيه علي فخذيه ثم عند وصوله الي كلمة التوحيد يعقد الخنصر و البنصر و يحلق الوسطي و الابهام و يشير بالمسبحة رافعا لها عند النفي و واضعا لها عند الاثبات ثم يستمر علي ذلك لانه ثبت العقد عند الاشارة بلا خلاف و لم يوجد امر بتغييره فالاصل بقاء الشيئ علي ما هو عليه و استصحابه الي اخر امره
"And the Sahih and chosen opinion among the most of our ulama is, to keep fingers on thigh, then upon reaching Kalima Tawhid (Ashhadu alla..), join little finger and ring finger, and make ring with thumb and middle finger, and point out with the index finger at Nafi (La ilaha), and keep it back at Isbat (Illallah). Then continue with this (to the end)..."
And do you've to keep the finger lowered before giving salaam and then bring it in the first position or keeping it that stretched while giving salaam ? After lowering your finger at Illallah, don't change it until the end of prayer. Keep your index finger that lowered stretched while salam also. Because ur salah ends after salam, not before it.

And Allah knows best.

[Sleflanna]

After lowering your finger at Illallah, don't change it until the end of prayer. Keep your index finger that lowered stretched while salam also. Because ur salah ends after salam, not before it.

Interesting..
Is there consensus among the Hanafi Fuqaha that Salah ends after the two taslim?

I ask before on this forum we discussed lenghtly about this issue of index-finger, and till now didn't come to any conclusion about the topic of "when giving up Ishara: before or after Salam? Between Salat Ibrahimiyyah/du'a' and Salam?
Because many Hanafi fiqh text said to "keep it until the end of the Salat".

We hadn't come to any conclusion but then on another thread I've read that Salat end just before the taslim, so from that I understood that I have to "untie" the Ishara (with lowered index finger) just before the two taslim.
But now you say it has to be kept until after the two taslim.. Could you shed more light on this?

[clubcughSheet]

Because many Hanafi fiqh text said to "keep it until the end of the Salat".

may be mawlana yousuf make it clear, what it sounds to me that end of the salat is refering till dua masurah or taslim. which includes durood and dua masurah. but isn´t durood and dua masurah is Sunnah act and tashahhud is Wajib act?

If anybody is in hurry they may left durood and dua masurah and finish the salah!

[RealCHEAPsoftDOWNLOAD]

Interesting..
Is there consensus among the Hanafi Fuqaha that Salah ends after the two taslim?

brother for the point. Well, I didn't clarify it in my previous reply that giving up the ishara is after first salam or second salam. I just said "Keep your index finger that lowered stretched while salam also", and avoided the Ikhtilafi point.

Well, it is the opinion of the major Hanafis that the salat ends after the first salam. But there r some opinions too that the salat ends after the second salam. So, when many Hanafi fiqh text said to "keep it until the end of the Salat", as u said, and there are differences of opinions in regard of the end of the Salah, and the caution (Ihtiyat) is on taking the opinion of the second salam, thus I said like that in my previous reply.

Badaye Sanaye talks on this issue:

( وأما ) حكمه فهو الخروج من الصلاة ، ثم الخروج يتعلق بإحدى التسليمتين عند عامة العلماء .
وروي عن محمد أنه قال : التسليمة الأولى للخروج والتحية ، والتسليمة الثانية للتحية خاصة ، وقال بعضهم : لا يخرج ما لم يوجد التسليمتين جميعا وهو خلاف إجماع السلف ، ولأن التسليم تكليم القوم ؛ لأنه خطاب لهم فكان منافيا للصلاة ألا ترى أنه لو وجد في وسط الصلاة يخرجه عن الصلاة
And its (salam's) ruling is, exiting the salah. Then, this exiting is related to one salam according to the majority of Ulama. And it is reported that Muhammad said: The first salam is for exiting and greeting. And the second salam is certain to greeting.
Some says: No exit till the second salam. And this is opposite to the consensus of the salaf. Because the salam is to talk to the nation. And because it is a speech to them. So, it will contradict the salah. Don't u see, that if this salam was found in the middle of salah, it would have discharged him from salah?

I hope that more knowledgeable brothers will talk on this and point out my wrongs. We r still students of knowledge and wrongs r well possible from us.
what it sounds to me that end of the salat is refering till dua masurah or taslim. which includes durood and dua masurah. but isn´t durood and dua masurah is Sunnah act and tashahhud is Wajib act? Brother, the duties in salat finish after tashahhud, right, but the salat ends by an intentional act of Musalli. And the word 'salam' is wajib in case of that act. So, without that act/salam, the salat doesn't end. This is what I know..
And yeah, tashahhud is wajib and the others r sunnah.

[Sleflanna]

brother for the point. Well, I didn't clarify it in my previous reply that giving up the ishara is after first salam or second salam. I just said "Keep your index finger that lowered stretched while salam also", and avoided the Ikhtilafi point.

Well, it is the opinion of the major Hanafis that the salat ends after the first salam. But there r some opinions too that the salat ends after the second salam. So, when many Hanafi fiqh text said to "keep it until the end of the Salat", as u said, and there are differences of opinions in regard of the end of the Salah, and the caution (Ihtiyat) is on taking the opinion of the second salam, thus I said like that in my previous reply.

Badaye Sanaye talks on this issue:

( وأما ) حكمه فهو الخروج من الصلاة ، ثم الخروج يتعلق بإحدى التسليمتين عند عامة العلماء .
وروي عن محمد أنه قال : التسليمة الأولى للخروج والتحية ، والتسليمة الثانية للتحية خاصة ، وقال بعضهم : لا يخرج ما لم يوجد التسليمتين جميعا وهو خلاف إجماع السلف ، ولأن التسليم تكليم القوم ؛ لأنه خطاب لهم فكان منافيا للصلاة ألا ترى أنه لو وجد في وسط الصلاة يخرجه عن الصلاة
And its (salam's) ruling is, exiting the salah. Then, this exiting is related to one salam according to the majority of Ulama. And it is reported that Muhammad said: The first salam is for exiting and greeting. And the second salam is certain to greeting.
Some says: No exit till the second salam. And this is opposite to the consensus of the salaf. Because the salam is to talk to the nation. And because it is a speech to them. So, it will contradict the salah. Don't u see, that if this salam was found in the middle of salah, it would have discharged him from salah?

I hope that more knowledgeable brothers will talk on this and point out my wrongs. We r still students of knowledge and wrongs r well possible from us.


Brother, the duties in salat finish after tashahhud, right, but the salat ends by an intentional act of Musalli. And the word 'salam' is wajib in case of that act. So, without that act/salam, the salat doesn't end. This is what I know..
And yeah, tashahhud is wajib and the others r sunnah.

!

[Mambattedge]

As salaam alaikum,

Is there any among the 'Ulama here who can produce a single piece of evidence from the Qur'an and Sunnah which proves that one should raise his finger upon reciting 'an Laailaaha' and then lowering it upon 'illallah'.

All hadith seem to just prove that the finger was raised throughout the whole of the tashahhud, from the very beginning upon reciting 'Attahiyyaatu' until the Salaam.

I am a Hanafi and I have always wondered where is the proof for such, or isn't there any?

[Maserati]

Brother, the duties in salat finish after tashahhud, right, but the salat ends by an intentional act of Musalli. And the word 'salam' is wajib in case of that act. So, without that act/salam, the salat doesn't end. This is what I know..
And yeah, tashahhud is wajib and the others r sunnah.

السلام عليكم ورحمة الله

So do you recommend to flatten the fingers after the first salaam or second sidi ?
I think after the first since this was the position of the jamhoor of Ahnaf and the Salaf ?

[RealCHEAPsoftDOWNLOAD]

Yes, after first salam.

And Allah knows best.

[Maserati]

Yes, after first salam.

And Allah knows best.

بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم

السلام عليكم ورحمة الله

Sidi, last question regarding this handling, when dropping the finger after raising, do you must drop the index-finger upon your thigh or keep it a bit higher the thigh ?

جزاكم الله خيرا

[RealCHEAPsoftDOWNLOAD]

بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم

السلام عليكم ورحمة الله

Sidi, last question regarding this handling, when dropping the finger after raising, do you must drop the index-finger upon your thigh or keep it a bit higher the thigh ?

جزاكم الله خيرا

I think it was already answered in the 7th post of this thread.

You make a ring when you reach Shahada i.e. Ashhadu, then raise your finger upon reaching LA ILAHA and at ILL ALLAH you put it down and hold the ring with the lowered stretched index finger until the end of salaah.

Someone had previously posted an animated picture and I saved it. May be that will help u more.

At last we can say, Yes, a bit higher the thigh.

(Is this what u asked brother?)

[Maserati]

I think it was already answered in the 7th post of this thread.

You make a ring when you reach Shahada i.e. Ashhadu, then raise your finger upon reaching LA ILAHA and at ILL ALLAH you put it down and hold the ring with the lowered stretched index finger until the end of salaah.

Someone had previously posted an animated picture and I saved it. May be that will help u more.

At last we can say, Yes, a bit higher the thigh.

(Is this what u asked brother?)

بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم

السلام عليكم ورحمة الله

Yes جزاكم الله خيرا . Sidi if it is not taking much time could you maybe give the exact reference in Rafa at-Taraddud of 'Allamah 'Ibn 'Abidin where the statement can be found, I need it to show someone else. Only page number would be sufficient.

[RealCHEAPsoftDOWNLOAD]

Majmu'atu Rasaili Ibn Abedin
Volume: 1
Page: 134

In fact, it would be better if he reads the whole Risala (page: 120-135), only 15 pages.