[Gmvkgkmn]

as salaamu alaykum,

Muhadith Hijaz, Muhammad Hayat Sindi was the student of Imam Shah Waliullah Dahlawi and the teacher of
- Shaykh Safarini ( Hanbali Sufi )
- Shaykh Muhammad ibn Abdul Wahhab ( Hanbali Salafi )
- Shaykh Amir Ismail San`ani ( Ghayr Muqallid )
- many other students ( hanafis )

This is a small risala which will explain the reasons of ikhtilaf.

https://picasaweb.google.com/abulhus...ndiOnIkhtilaaf

[Thifiadardivy]

Do you have any reference where it is stated that Shayky Ibn Abd al-Wahhab studied with Shaykh Muhammad Hayat Sindhi?

[Gmvkgkmn]

Do you have any reference where it is stated that Shayky Ibn Abd al-Wahhab studied with Shaykh Muhammad Hayat Sindhi?

yes, there are few references which can be provided. You could look up the biographies of the two scholars by their students or contemporaries.
http://www.ajurry.com/vb/showthread.php?t=6063
http://www.moqatel.com/openshare/Beh...03.doc_cvt.htm
http://www.saaid.net/monawein/t/9.htm
Multaqa http://www.ahlal hdeeth.com/vb/showthread.php?t=80518
etc etc


رغم أنَّ الشيخ السندي رحمه الله، نشأ على مذهب الحنفي كما هو السائد في بلاد الهند، وقد نسب إليه، إلاَّ أنَّه لم يكن من الغالين في المذهب، المتعصِّبين للأئمَّة، بل كان منابذًا للتَّقليد، متمسِّكا بالدَّليل، داعياً إلى العمل بالحديث، وقد ألَّف في ذلك رسالة لطيفة، سمَّاها: (تحفة الأنام في العمل بحديث النبيِّ عليه الصلاة والسلام) (4).
قال العلامة الفلاَّني في (إيقاظ همم أولي الأبصار)قال شيخ مشايخنا محمَّد حياة السندي: اللاَّزم على كل مسلم أن يجتهد في معرفة معاني القرآن، وتتبَّع الأحاديث، وفهم معانيها، وإخراج الأحكام منها، فإن لم يقدر فعليه أن يقلِّد العلماء من غير التزام بمذهب؛ لأنَّه يشبه اتِّخاذه نبيًّا، وينبغي له أن يأخذ بالأحوط من كلِّ مذهب، ويجوز له الأخذ بالرُّخص عند الضَّرورة، أمَّا بدونها فالأحسن التَّرْك.
وأمَّا ما أحدثه أهل زماننا من التزام مذاهب مخصوصة، لا يرى ولا يجوِّز كلٌّ منهم الإنتقال من مذهب إلى مذهب، فجهل وبدع وتعسُّف، وقد رأيناهم يتركون الأحاديث الصِّحاح غير المنسوخة، ويتعلَّقون بمذاهبهم من غير سند [إنا لله وإنا إليه راجعون] اهـ.
وكانت له مواقف مع مشايخ الحنفيَّة من بني بلدته، فقد ألَّف رسالة سمَّاها: (الدُّرَّة في إظهار غشِّ نقد الصرَّة) ردَّ بها على الشيخ محمَّد هاشم بن عبد الغفور السندي الحنفي في رسالته درهم الصرَّة في وضع الأيدي تحت السرَّة) ذهب فيها إلى أن السُّنَّة وضع اليد على الصَّدر في الصَّلاة، عملاً بالأحاديث الواردة في ذلك، وإنْ كانت تخالف مع عليه الحنفية، ولهذا لمَّا كتب (الدُّرَّة) ردَّعليه الشيخ محمَّد هاشم في رسالتين إحداهما: (ترصيع الدرَّة في درهم الصرَّة)، والثانية: (معيار النقَّاد في تمييز المغشوش من الجياد)، ردَّ عليه الشيخ السندي مرَّة أخرى في رسالة سمَّاها : (فتح الغفور في وضع الأيدي على الصدور) (5).


-----
From Shaykh Abdal Hayy Lacknawi ( father of Abul Hasan Nadwi ) book Nuzhat khawatir

الشيخ محمد حياة السندي
الشيخ الامام العالم الكبير المحدث محمد حياة بن إبراهيم السندي المدني أحد العلماء المشهورين، كان
أصله من قبيلة جاجر كانت تسكن في ما يلي من عادل بور وهي قرية جامعة من أعمال بكر في
إقليم السند ولد بها ونشأ ثم انتقل إلى مدينة تته قاعدة بلاد السند وقرأ العلم على الشيخ محمد معين بن
محمد أمين التتوي السندي، ثم هاجر إلى الحرمين الشريفين فحج وسكن بالمدينة المنورة ولازم الشيخ
الكبير أبا الحسن محمد بن عبد الهادي السندي المدني وأخذ عنه وجلس مجلسه بعد وفاته أربعاً
وعشرين سنة، وأجازه الشيخ عبد الله بن سالم البصري المكي والشيخ أبو طاهر محمد بن إبراهيم
الكردي المدني والشيخ حسن بن علي العجيمي وغيرهم، وأخذ عنه الشيخ أبو الحسن بن محمد
صادق السندي والشيخ أحمد بن عبد الرحمن السندي والشيخ محمد سعيد صفر والشيخ عبد القادر
خليل كدك والسيد عبد القادر بن أحمد بن عبد القادر والشيخ عبد الكريم بن عبد الرحيم الداغستاني
والشيخ علي بن صادق الداغستاني والسيد علي بن إبراهيم بن جمعة العبسي والشيخ عبد الكريم بن
أحمد الشراباتي والشيخ علي بن عبد الرحمن الإسلامبولي والشيخ علي بن محمد الزهري والمفتي
محمد بن عبد الله الخليفتي المدني والشيخ عليم الله بن عبد الرشيد اللاهوري المدفون بدمشق والشيخ
خير الدين بن محمد زاهد السورتي والشيخ محمد فاخر ابن محمد يحيى العباسي الإله آبادي والسيد
غلام علي بن نوح الواسطي البلكرامي وخلق كثير من العلماء والمشايخ.
ومن مصنفاته رسالة في إبطال الضرائح ورسالة في انتصار السنة والعمل بالحديث المسماة بتحفة
الأنام في العمل بحديث النبي عليه الصلاة والسلام ورسالة في النهي عن عشق صور المرد
والنسوان وله الإيقاف على أسباب الاختلاف وله غير ذلك من الرسائل.
توفي يوم الأربعاء لأربع بقين من صفر سنة ثلاث
وستين ومائة وألف بالمدينة فدفن بالبقيع الغرقد،
كما في الإتحاف وغيره.

[Gmvkgkmn]

http://akidatuna.blogspot.com/2009/1...post_3225.html
تحفة الأنام في العمل بحديث النبي عليه الصلاة والسلام / * ط
تحفة الأنام في العمل بحديث النبي عليه الصلاة والسلامللشيخ المحدث محمد حياة بن إبراهيم السندي الحنفي نزيل المدينة المنورة توفي سنة 1163 هـ

ــــــــ
مواد للتحميل :
ملف بدف / رابط1 / رابط2/
http://www.archive.org/download/tuhf...anam-sindi.pdf

[PheliarearY]

Abul Hussain,

What are your opinions on the following quotation from the Imam's work "al-junnah fi 'aqidati ahl as-sunnah" (p.g. 58), espousing tafwid al-ma'na:

"Belonging to him, transcendant is he, attributes, acts and names aside from that which has been mentioned ... and no one comprehends their reality except Him. We thus establish for him that which He has established, Himself, according to His intent; we negate that which he has negated for His noble self."

Scans of the manuscript of an 'aqidah work of the Imam, demonstrate his utilisation of the attributes of Allah according to the ash'ari understanding, beginning with 'wujud', 'qidam', 'baqa', 'mukhalafah lil hawadith' all the way to 'ilm', 'haya', 'sama', 'basar' and 'kalam'. Are you going to condemn him for using such an approach, in the same way you condemned others?

How about the following quote from his sharh al-hikam al-'ata'iyyah:

(قُرْبُكَ مِنْهُ) يا أيها العبد (أنْ تَكونَ مُشاهِداً لِقُرْبِهِ) من خلقه، فإنه أقرب إليهم من أنفسهم قربا يليق بعلوه، (وَإلّا فَمِنْ أيْنَ أنْتَ) يا أيها الحادث المشتمل على الأجرام والأعراض (وَوجودُ قُرْبِهِ؟!) وهو ليس بجسم ولا جوهر ولا عرَض، بل هو إله مقدّس عن سمات أهل الزوال، متصف بصفات العلو والكمال.

and this:

(شتان) وقع بون بعيد (بين من يستدل به) على غيره؛ إذ هو كامل في ذاته وصفاته فلابد أن يكون له مظاهر ذلك، (وبين من يستدل عليه) بغيره من المخلوقات؛ إذ تغيرها يدل على حدوثها من محدِث واجب الوجود واحد قديم كامل في أوصافه، منزه عما لا يليق به. الأول: حال الواصلين، والثاني: مقام السالكين. اهـ

Can we agree that to speak in such ash'ari terminology is fine?

was-salam

[Gmvkgkmn]

Abul Hussain,

What are your opinions on the following quotation from the Imam's work "al-junnah fi 'aqidati ahl as-sunnah" (p.g. 58), espousing tafwid al-ma'na:

"Belonging to him, transcendant is he, attributes, acts and names aside from that which has been mentioned ... and no one comprehends their reality except Him. We thus establish for him that which He has established, Himself, according to His intent; we negate that which he has negated for His noble self."

Scans of the manuscript of an 'aqidah work of the Imam, demonstrate his utilisation of the attributes of Allah according to the ash'ari understanding, beginning with 'wujud', 'qidam', 'baqa', 'mukhalafah lil hawadith' all the way to 'ilm', 'haya', 'sama', 'basar' and 'kalam'. Are you going to condemn him for using such an approach, in the same way you condemned others?

How about the following quote from his sharh al-hikam al-'ata'iyyah:

(قُرْبُكَ مِنْهُ) يا أيها العبد (أنْ تَكونَ مُشاهِداً لِقُرْبِهِ) من خلقه، فإنه أقرب إليهم من أنفسهم قربا يليق بعلوه، (وَإلّا فَمِنْ أيْنَ أنْتَ) يا أيها الحادث المشتمل على الأجرام والأعراض (وَوجودُ قُرْبِهِ؟!) وهو ليس بجسم ولا جوهر ولا عرَض، بل هو إله مقدّس عن سمات أهل الزوال، متصف بصفات العلو والكمال.

and this:

(شتان) وقع بون بعيد (بين من يستدل به) على غيره؛ إذ هو كامل في ذاته وصفاته فلابد أن يكون له مظاهر ذلك، (وبين من يستدل عليه) بغيره من المخلوقات؛ إذ تغيرها يدل على حدوثها من محدِث واجب الوجود واحد قديم كامل في أوصافه، منزه عما لا يليق به. الأول: حال الواصلين، والثاني: مقام السالكين. اهـ

Can we agree that to speak in such ash'ari terminology is fine?

was-salam

Oh, you got me there. Will you join those who condemn and call Salafis/wahabis = anthropomorphists mushabih etc if I showed to you the opposite of your claim on Allamah Muhammad Hayat Sindi ?

Also, will you accept Imam Muhammad Hayat Sindi's opinion and views mentioned in that book even if it goes against the ashari theory of Abdullah Habashi or Habib Hasan Ali Saqqaf ?

Let us know please.

[PheliarearY]

BismiLlah . . .
as-salamu 'alaykum wa rahmatuLlah . . .

1) I do not subscribe to the divergent views of Hasan 'Ali as-Saqqaf, who is not known with the laqab 'Habib', nor Shaykh 'AbduLlah al-Harari. If you continue to assert that I follow these two personalities, you will be lying, and a mu'min does not lie. BarakaLlahu fik.

2) I am totally fine if, while taking it 'upon the dhahir', you negate tashbih and tamthil, in such a way that Allah is not characterized as being bound by His creation of location. There are, however, a few inconsistencies in this method, and it is thus that I perform tafwid al-ma'na, according to the ash'ari school, which Imam Muhammad Hayat as-Sindi [rahimahuLlah] too subscribed to as per my knowledge.

Would you please re-formulate your crticism of the ash'ari methodology in terms of the sifaat of Allah (wujud, qidam . . .) from your last post here, clearly, so that I can, in turn, respond to the specific issues which you find problematic? jazakum Allah khayran

Please do present those specific quotes from the Imam; in the process of doing so, please address the quotes I've presented.

was-salam

[Gmvkgkmn]

BismiLlah . . .
as-salamu 'alaykum wa rahmatuLlah . . .

1) I do not subscribe to the divergent views of Hasan 'Ali as-Saqqaf, who is not known with the laqab 'Habib', nor Shaykh 'AbduLlah al-Harari. If you continue to assert that I follow these two personalities, you will be lying, and a mu'min does not lie. BarakaLlahu fik.

1) yes, Hasan Ali Saqqaf al-Shadhilli is a HABIB and if you continue to deny that you will be lying, and a mu'min does not lie. BarakaLlahu fik

2) i never asserted that you follow them, please stop playing that card

3) Habib Hasan Ali Saqqaf al-Shadhilli and Shaykh Abdullah al-Habashi are both Asharis. Shaykh Abdullah Habashi died but Habib Hasan Ali Saqqaf is alive and you can confirm this. Both of them might have few unpopular opinions when it comes to Ashari Aqida or Fiqh but that doesn't mean you can just expel them from Ashari madhhab. Because the history is full of such examples.

4) I find it strange that suddenly Dhahir al-mana became acceptable to you ? is it because of the quote of Imam Subki
ثمَّ أَقُول للأشاعرة قَولَانِ مشهوران فِي إِثْبَات الصِّفَات هَل تمر على ظَاهرهَا مَعَ اعْتِقَاد التَّنْزِيه أَو تؤول

Can you please show me which wahhabi or salafi said that take Dhahir al-Mana but do not negate tashbih or tamtheel. please quote arabic with references like I am doing.

5) Please tell us which Ashari scholars did Dhahir al-Mana which Imam Subki was mentioning ? Since you seem to know Ashari school, please give us few names or say that Imam Subki was greatly mistaken.

[denSmumbSes]

1. I don't think Shaikh Muhammad Hayat Sindhi was a student of Shah Waliullah .

2. Hassan Ali as-Saqqaf is a Mu`tazili.

[PheliarearY]

wa 'alaykum as-salam wa rahmatuLlah,

yes, Hasan Ali Saqqaf al-Shadhilli is a HABIB and if you continue to deny that you will be lying Hadrami 'Urf dictates that a Habib is either [1] an elderly family member, or a [2] sunni, major 'alim and sayyid. In sey'un, for example, they only term Habib 'Ali al-Habshi as 'Habib'. Hasan 'Ali as-Saqqaf does not fall into either category.

i never asserted that you follow them, please stop playing that card If anyone is playing a card, it is you, bringing up these two individuals in the majority of your conversations directed at ash'aris. Indeed, it was you who asked, rhetorically:

will you accept Imam Muhammad Hayat Sindi's opinion and views mentioned in that book even if it goes against the ashari theory of Abdullah Habashi or Habib Hasan Ali Saqqaf . . . which indicates that you are not sure whether I whether I would contradict these two individuals, and that I subscribe to their 'ashari theory'.

Habib Hasan Ali Saqqaf al-Shadhilli and Shaykh Abdullah al-Habashi are both Asharis. Shaykh Abdullah Habashi died but Habib Hasan Ali Saqqaf is alive and you can confirm this. Both of them might have few unpopular opinions when it comes to Ashari Aqida or Fiqh but that doesn't mean you can just expel them from Ashari madhhab. Because the history is full of such examples. I'm not bothered, at least for the moment, about these two individuals. Kindly ommit them from this discussion.

I find it strange that suddenly Dhahir al-mana became acceptable to you Thanks for tackling the issue at hand! Well, it comes down to, as you rightly pointed down, whether tashbih and tamthil is trully negated, such that there are no contradictions in methodology (which I'll touch later, in sha Allah). In other words, it depends what is intended by Dhahir. Could you please define what you consider the dhahir al-ma'na to be?

please quote arabic with references like I am doing I will try and present quotes, but not like you're doing:

is it because of the quote of Imam Subki
ثمَّ أَقُول للأشاعرة قَولَانِ مشهوران فِي إِثْبَات الصِّفَات هَل تمر على ظَاهرهَا مَعَ اعْتِقَاد التَّنْزِيه أَو تؤول By all means use quotes, but provide some contextual information too, if you're not going to quote the entire passage (which can be found on the ahl al-hadith forums.

As I said, if by dhahir al-ma'na you mean the same as al-Imam as-Subki, who explicily stated after your quote: "والقول بالإمرار مع اعتقاد التنزيه هو المعزو إلى السلف وهو اختيار الإمام في الرسالة النظامية وفي مواضع من كلامه فرجوعه معناه الرجوع عن التأويل إلى التفويض ولا إنكار في هذا ولا في مقابلة فإنها مسألة اجتهادية أعني مسألة التأويل أو التفويض مع اعتقاد التنزيه"

"The position of passing it on (s: clear tafwid al-ma'na), while maintaining transcendence in belief, is that which has been attributed to the salaf, and this is the chosen position of the Imam in ar-risalah al-nizamiyyah. Thus, his returning is referring to returning from ta'wil to tafwid, and no condemnation in this, nor in it's opposite (i.e. ta'wil); this is since it is an ijtihadi matter, i.e. the matter of ta'wil or tafwid, while holding the belief of transcendence (of Allah)"

In fact, the Imam goes on to clarify that what is meant by tafwid is not interpreting it at all (which is the ash'ari position):

"إنما المصيبة الكبرى والداهية الدهياء الإمرار على الظاهر والاعتقاد أنه المراد وأنه لا يستحيل على الباري فذلك قول المجسمة عباد الوثن الذين في قلوبهم زيغ يحملهم الزيغ على اتباع المتشابه ابتغاء الفتنة عليهم لعائن الله تترى واحدة بعد أخرى ما أجرأهم على الكذب وأقل فهمهم للحقائق"

"Indeed, the greatest calamity and disaster is passing it on upon it's dhahir while beliving that this is true intent (behind the asma' and sifaat) and that this is not impossible for al-Bari (jalla jalaaluh). This is the position of the mujassimah, the worshipers of idols . . ."

Perhaps you'll direct your statement to al-Imam as-Subki, rahimahuLlah:

Will you join those who condemn and call Salafis/wahabis = anthropomorphists mushabih etc Please tell us which Ashari scholars did Dhahir al-Mana which Imam Subki was mentioning As you should have seen, Imam as-Subki was talking about ash'ari tafwid, and this was the position of the majority of the ash'aris, and which al-hafidh ibn taymiyyah severly criticised:

فتبين أن قول أهل التفويض الذين يزعمون أنهم متبعون للسنة والسلف من شر أقوال أهل البدع والإلحاد "Thus, it is clear that the saying of the people of tafwid, who claim to be following the sunnah and salaf, is from the worst of the sayings of the people bid'ah and ilhad"

Can you please show me which wahhabi or salafi said that take Dhahir al-Mana but do not negate tashbih or tamtheel As I said, it's the intent behind 'dhahir al-ma'na' which is the problem. Please define 'dhahir' according to the salafi scholars.

***

Since you've completely dodged the points about al-Imam Muhammad Hayat as-Sindi (rahimahuLlah), despite your claim "if I showed to you the opposite of your claim on Allamah Muhammad Hayat Sindi", I'd like you to present these quotes, and please address the quotes I've presented. Beneficial discussion occurs on a point-by-point basis, so please don't switch topics.

was-salam

[Gmvkgkmn]

@ suleimanibnsalim

I had written a long post but the browser crashed. anyway, the point is that we have to unbiased and examine arguments from both sides. I think you understand the Ashari creed better than me so, I would be asking you to explain me.

Here is what al-Juwayni says about the Madhab of the Salaf in his last work he wrote after his repentance, al-‘Aqida al-Nidhamiyya – published by al-Kawthari:

“The Imams of the Salaf believed in abstaining from interpretation (ta’wil) and passing the literal meanings of the texts as they have come (ijra’ al-dhawahir ‘ala mawaridiha), while relegating (tafweedh) the meanings to the Lord Most High”

In this passage, “meaning” was used twice, and each time it was used, its obvious meaning points at a different meaning to each other

1. passing the literal (apparent) meanings of the texts as they have come

Our creed is that we believe “in what has come to us”. Here, al-Juwainee uses dhaahir, which is understood as the apparent or obvious meaning, while in the second usage of the term meaning
2. while relegating the meanings to the Lord.

It does not logically make sense in the realm of reason to employ the same concept on two different occasions and have a different methodology for each one, except that for each occasion is different from the other.

in other words, al-Juwainee is saying
“pass the apparent meanings as they come” and then turns around and says
“relegate those meanings to Allah”

A person like al-Juwainee does not make an inherently contradictory statement unless the “meaning” described in the second is different than the “meaning” described in the first.

so the statement “passing the apparent meaning as it has come” means exactly what it says. We affirm the apparent, obvious, dhaahir meaning. So Hand means Hand, Face means Face, Shin means Shin, Eyes means Eyes. Rising means Rising, Foot means Foot, etc.

So if we affirm these as the meaning, then when al-Juwainee states
“while relegating the meanings (tafweedh) to the Lord”

then the most obvious understanding that comes out of this is its nature, its kayfiyyah. That is the essence and reality of the Imaams of sunnah saying
“ijra’ al-dhawahir ‘ala mawaridiha, bila kayf”

i.e.

“We pass the apparent meanings as they have come, without how”

that is the true athari creed that we hold.

That is, we AFFIRM the dhaahir and relegate the nature to Allah.
http://islamthought.wordpress.com/20...d-allahs-hand/

What does Imam al-Haramain Abul Ma`ali Juwayni mean about TWO HANDS TWO EYES FACE in his book al-Irshad ??



suleimanibnsalim I want you to explain to me the position of Imam Haramayn on Two Hands, Two Eyes and Face......
what does it mean ?

[Gmvkgkmn]

what does Imam Izz ibn abdus Salam mean by TWO HANDS, TWO EYES and FACE ? please explain



http://islamweb.net/newlibrary/displ...=39&startno=13
القواعد الفقهية
قواعد الأحكام في مصالح الأنام
عز الدين عبد العزيز بن عبد السلام
دار الكتب العلمية

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رقم الطبعة: د.ط : د.ت
عدد الأجزاء: جزءان


الكتب » قواعد الأحكام في مصالح الأنام » قاعدة في بيان متعلقات الأحكام
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النوع الرابع عشر : اعتقاد جميع ما ذكرناه في حق العامة ، وهو قائم مقام العلم في حق الخاصة ، لما في تعرف ذلك من المشقة الظاهرة للعامة ، فإن الله كلف الخاصة أن يعرفوه بالأزلية والأبدية والتفرد بالإلهية وأنه حي عالم قادر مريد سميع بصير متكلم صادق في أخباره ، وكلف العامة أن يعتقدوا ذلك لعسر وقوفهم على أدلة معرفته فاجتزى منهم باعتقاد ذلك .

وأما كونه عالما بعلم قادرا بقدرة فإنه مما يلتبس ، وقد اختلف الناس فيه لالتباسه ، وكذلك القول في قدم كلامه وفي أن ما وصف به نفسه من الوجه واليدين والعينين صفات معنوية قائمة بذاته أو هي متأولة بما يرجع إلى الصفات فيعبر بالوجه عن الذات ، وباليدين عن القدرة ، وبالعينين عن العلم .

وكذلك اختلف الناس أهي جهة أم لا جهة له مما يطول النزاع فيه ويعسر الوقوف على أدلته ، وقد تردد أصحاب الأشعري رحمهم الله في القدم والبقاء أهما من صفات السلب أم من صفات الذات ؟ وقد كثرت مقالات الأشعري حتى جمعها ابن فورك في مجلدين وكل ذلك مما لا يمكن تصويب للمجتهدين فيه بل الحق مع واحد منهم ، والباقون مخطئون خطأ معفوا عنه لمشقة الخروج منه والانفكاك عنه ، ولا سيما قول معتقد الجهة فإن اعتقاد موجود ليس بمتحرك ولا ساكن ولا منفصل عن العالم ولا متصل به ، ولا داخل فيه ولا خارج عنه لا يهتدي إليه أحد بأصل الخلقة في العادة ، ولا يهتدي إليه أحد إلا بعد الوقوف على أدلة صعبة المدرك عسرة الفهم فلأجل هذه المشقة عفا الله عنها في حق العادي .

[Gmvkgkmn]

Baqillani on TWO EYES AND TWO HANDS AND FACE, so what does Imam Baqillani mean by TWO HANDS, TWO EYES and FACE ? or you want to say like brother zubair of khadimulama blog that Imam Baqillani made mistake in this issue. Be clear brother.



more quotes here @ MULTAQA ENGLISH t=1257
http://www.****************/vbe/showthread.php?t=1257
from other Ashari scholars like Bayhaqi Qushayri etc etc

[Gmvkgkmn]

As I said, it's the intent behind 'dhahir al-ma'na' which is the problem. Please define 'dhahir' according to the salafi scholars.

***

I have already discussed this http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/show...uot#post583681 , but you moved from that thread and asked the same question in this thread, i wonder why ? where is abosafar ?

Abul_hussain tell us the meaning of istawa and yadd for which you say the meaning is known.

it is very simple to understand, just like Molwi Faraz Rabbani / GF Haddad / Ahbash-Habashis translated other Attributes of Allah. If Yadd could mean 1000 things then so could the other attributes like Samee / Baseer etc. etc... but why do they translate the 7 affirmative attributes to the DHAHIR = LITERAL APPARENT meanings ?? But you say when it comes to YADD. STOP, don't do what GF Haddad and Faraz Rabbani are doing ? please explain and clarify !
if translating it is not giving the meaning to the apparent/literal then what it is ?

See how Molwi Faraz Rabbani translated the Attributes of Allah here http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.a...ID=114&CATE=24
"Allah has seven affirmative attributes, which you mentioned: Knowledge, Will, Power, Life, Hearing, Seeing, and Speech. These have seven attributes that relate to them, which are Allah's being Knowing, Willing, Powerful, Living, Hearing, Seeing, and Speaking."

So, what is wrong with translating Yadd as Hand ?? if you can translate Samee to mean Hearing and Baseer to mean seeing ?? you can search for articles of faraz rabbani or gf haddad or ahbash were they have translated yadd = hand .

is it really that hard to understand ? Islam came for everyone, for a Jaahil bedouin in the desert to the most educated ones in the cities. You don't need to learn all those terms like limb/organ/blood/flesh/bones/nail/tissues/fibers/veins/arteries/atoms/protons/neutrons/electrons/bodies/jism/ and its functions or workings etc etc.. to understand simple issues.

From belief in Allah is to have faith in those of His Beautiful names and Lofty Attributes that occur in His Great Book Quran and that have been affirmed by His Last Messenger -without tahreef (distorting the wording or the meaning), tateel (divesting or denying the Attributes), takyeef (asking how) or tamtheel (resembling Allah to any of His creation). Rather,it is obligatory to leave them as they came, without takyeef (asking how) or tamtheel (resembling Allah to any of His creation). Along with this, it is also obligatory to have faith in the meaning that Allah has been described with, in a way which befits Him: without resembling Him to His creation in any of His attributes.
Allah says:"There is nothing like unto Him,and He is the All-Hearing,the All-seeing" 42:11
Allaah also says:"And do not put forward any similitudes for Allah. Indeed,Allah knows and you do not know" 16:74

When Names of Allah have been translated and Sifat ( attributes ) translated by learned Ashari or Maturidi scholars or students of knowledge ( like GF Haddad, Faraz Rabbani , Ahbash AICP etc etc. ) what is the issue with other Sifat like Yadd or Ayn etc etc ?

We understand the sifat and names of Allah are tawqifiyyah ( see the words of Khatib al-Baghdadi and others ) , later we shall see what Tabari, Ibn Furak, few maturidi scholars, Shabbir Ahmad Uthmani, Ashraf Ali Thanawi, Rasheed Gongohi etc etc have wrote on Attributes of Allah and tafwid...i don't know why there are so many heated debates and discussions on this issue, when the matter is so simple and easy to grasp. If a scholar from Ahlus Sunnah has a different opinion on few issues, that doesn't mean he should be ex-communicated or expelled. Rather, there are some very just scholars, who said this is the Madhhab of Salaf however this is my opinion (which is different ) ... this is the right way.

Shaykh Riyad al-Haqq

All in agreement with Madhhab of Salaf just like Hafidh Abu Sulayman al-Khattabi (d. 386 AH) said

أَخْبَرَنَا أَبُو بَكْرِ بْنُ الْحَارِثِ الْفَقِيهُ، أنا أَبُو مُحَمَّدِ بْنُ حَيَّانَ أَبُو الشَّيْخِ الْأَصْبَهَانِيُّ، قَالَ: وَفِيمَا أَجَازَنِي جَدِّي يَعْنِي مَحْمُودَ بْنَ الْفَرَحِ قَالَ: قَالَ إِسْحَاقُ بْنُ [ص:377] رَاهَوَيْهِ: سَأَلَنِي ابْنُ طَاهِرٍ عَنْ حَدِيثِ النَّبِيِّ صَلَّى اللهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ ـ يَعْنِي فِي النُّزُولِ ـ فَقُلْتُ لَهُ: النُّزُولُ بِلَا كَيْفٍ. قَالَ أَبُو سُلَيْمَانَ الْخَطَّابِيُّ: هَذَا الْحَدِيثُ وَمَا أَشْبَهَهُ مِنَ الْأَحَادِيثِ فِي الصِّفَاتِ كَانَ مَذْهَبُ السَّلَفِ فِيهَا الْإِيمَانَ بِهَا، وَإِجْرَاءَهَا عَلَى ظَاهِرِهَا وَنَفْيَ الْكَيْفِيَّةِ عَنْهَا. وَذَكَرَ الْحِكَايَةَ الَّتِي
[Hafidh Bayhaqi says] Abu Sulayman al-Khattabi (d. 386 AH) said: “As for this hadith and whatever resembles it from the hadith of Allah’s attributes, the madhab of the Salaf in regards to them was to believe in them, and pass them on their Dhahir (literal/apparent) meaning and negate the kayfiyyah (howness) from it.” and he mentioned that story. --- mentioned by Bayhaqi in his book Asma wa Sifat

If anyone thinks what i wrote is not the madhhab of Salaf Salih then please feel free to point out for which i will be thankful.

so what maneatinglizard said > is very true, this topic never gets responded why the 7 affirmative attributes are translated to mean the dhahir haqeeqi and when it comes to yadd, STOP ! is there any answer to this ?

[Gmvkgkmn]

wa 'alaykum as-salam wa rahmatuLlah,



Hadrami 'Urf dictates that a Habib is either [1] an elderly family member, or a [2] sunni, major 'alim and sayyid. In sey'un, for example, they only term Habib 'Ali al-Habshi as 'Habib'. Hasan 'Ali as-Saqqaf does not fall into either category.

This is not true. I know many Saqqafs, Jifris, Aydarous and they are not
1) Elderly family member
2) not major Alim
3) but only sayyid
and they call themselves Habib. One of my close friend is a cousin of Abdul Qadir Saqqaf ( who wasn't alim -- Abdal qadir was called habib since young age. ) and he calls himself habib.
so, i don't know from where you got this definition of habib ? did you make it up ? it needs to be changed.

Habib in yemen means Sayyid (in indo/pak) or shareef in other parts of the arab world or Mir in Farsi
They all mean sayyid.

So there is nothing wrong with HABIB HASAN ALI SAQQAF AL-SHADHILLI. he is from the Habaib with yemeni roots.

[neniajany]

As I said, if by dhahir al-ma'na you mean the same as al-Imam as-Subki, who explicily stated after your quote: "والقول بالإمرار مع اعتقاد التنزيه هو المعزو إلى السلف وهو اختيار الإمام في الرسالة النظامية وفي مواضع من كلامه فرجوعه معناه الرجوع عن التأويل إلى التفويض ولا إنكار في هذا ولا في مقابلة فإنها مسألة اجتهادية أعني مسألة التأويل أو التفويض مع اعتقاد التنزيه"

"The position of passing it on (s: clear tafwid al-ma'na), while maintaining transcendence in belief, is that which has been attributed to the salaf, and this is the chosen position of the Imam in ar-risalah al-nizamiyyah. Thus, his returning is referring to returning from ta'wil to tafwid, and no condemnation in this, nor in it's opposite (i.e. ta'wil); this is since it is an ijtihadi matter, i.e. the matter of ta'wil or tafwid, while holding the belief of transcendence (of Allah)"

In fact, the Imam goes on to clarify that what is meant by tafwid is not interpreting it at all (which is the ash'ari position):

"إنما المصيبة الكبرى والداهية الدهياء الإمرار على الظاهر والاعتقاد أنه المراد وأنه لا يستحيل على الباري فذلك قول المجسمة عباد الوثن الذين في قلوبهم زيغ يحملهم الزيغ على اتباع المتشابه ابتغاء الفتنة عليهم لعائن الله تترى واحدة بعد أخرى ما أجرأهم على الكذب وأقل فهمهم للحقائق"

"Indeed, the greatest calamity and disaster is passing it on upon it's dhahir while beliving that this is true intent (behind the asma' and sifaat) and that this is not impossible for al-Bari (jalla jalaaluh). This is the position of the mujassimah, the worshipers of idols . . ."

Why do some people get the statement of the Salaf: أمروها كما جاءت (Pass them as they have come) and say it is referring to المعنى الظاهر (The Apparent Meaning), how could they manipulate it to mean such without any evidence from the Salaf?

In this effort, one can clearly see they have bought forward no statements of the Ulama of the Salaf clearly stating that Pass them as they come to mean Apparent Meaning:

http://as-salaf.com/article.php?aid=68&lang=ar

It is just mere speculation and assumptions from what i see.

Hafidh Ibn Hajr al-'Asqalani (Rahmatullah 'Alayhi) in his Sharh, Fath al-Bari under the hadith of Nuzool states in a page long analysis on the divergent views:


http://hadith.al-islam.com/Page.aspx...D=33&TOCID=738



قَوْلُهُ : ( يَنْزِلُ رَبُّنَا إِلَى السَّمَاءِ الدُّنْيَا " - اسْتَدَلَّ بِهِ مَنْ أَثْبَتَ الْجِهَةَ - " ) اسْتَدَلَّ بِهِ مَنْ أَثْبَتَ الْجِهَةَ ، وَقَالَ : هِيَ جِهَةُ الْعُلُوِّ ، وَأَنْكَرَ ذَلِكَ " - ص 37 -" الْجُمْهُورُ لِأَنَّ الْقَوْلَ بِذَلِكَ يُفْضِي إِلَى التَّحَيُّزِ ، تَعَالَى اللَّهُ عَنْ ذَلِكَ

. وَقَدِ اخْتُلِفَ فِي مَعْنَى النُّزُولِ عَلَى أَقْوَالٍ:

فَمِنْهُمْ مَنْ حَمَلَهُ عَلَى ظَاهِرِهِ وَحَقِيقَتِهِ ، وَهُمُ الْمُشَبِّهَةُ ، تَعَالَى اللَّهُ عَنْ قَوْلِهِمْ .

وَمِنْهُمْ مَنْ أَنْكَرَ صِحَّةَ الْأَحَادِيثِ الْوَارِدَةِ فِي ذَلِكَ جُمْلَةً ، وَهُمُ الْخَوَارِجُ ، وَالْمُعْتَزِلَةُ ، وَهُوَ مُكَابَرَةٌ ، وَالْعَجَبُ أَنَّهُمْ أَوَّلُوا مَا فِي الْقُرْآنِ مِنْ نَحْوِ ذَلِكَ ، وَأَنْكَرُوا مَا فِي الْحَدِيثِ ، إِمَّا جَهْلًا ، وَإِمَّا عِنَادًا ،

وَمِنْهُمْ مَنْ أَجْرَاهُ عَلَى مَا وَرَدَ مُؤْمِنًا بِهِ عَلَى طَرِيقِ الْإِجْمَالِ مُنَزِّهًا اللَّهَ تَعَالَى عَنِ الْكَيْفِيَّةِ وَالتَّشْبِيهِ ، وَهُمْ جُمْهُورُ السَّلَفِ ، وَنَقَلَهُ الْبَيْهَقِيُّ وَغَيْرُهُ عَنِ الْأَئِمَّةِ الْأَرْبَعَةِ ، وَالسُّفْيَانَيْنِ ، وَالْحَمَّادَيْنِ ، وَالْأَوْزَاعِيِّ ، وَاللَّيْثِ ، وَغَيْرِهِمْ ،

وَمِنْهُمْ مَنْ أَوَّلَهُ عَلَى وَجْهٍ يَلِيقُ ، مُسْتَعْمَلٍ فِي كَلَامِ الْعَرَبِ ،

وَمِنْهُمْ مَنْ أَفْرَطَ فِي التَّأْوِيلِ ، حَتَّى كَادَ أَنْ يَخْرُجَ إِلَى نَوْعٍ مِنَ التَّحْرِيفِ ،

وَمِنْهُمْ مَنْ فَصَلَ بَيْنَ مَا يَكُونُ تَأْوِيلُهُ قَرِيبًا مُسْتَعْمَلًا فِي كَلَامِ الْعَرَبِ ، وَبَيْنَ مَا يَكُونُ بَعِيدًا مَهْجُورًا ، فَأَوَّلَ فِي بَعْضٍ ، وَفَوَّضَ فِي بَعْضٍ ، وَهُوَ مَنْقُولٌ عَنْ مَالِكٍ ، وَجَزَمَ بِهِ مِنَ الْمُتَأَخِّرِينَ ابْنُ دَقِيقِ الْعِيدِ ،

قَالَ الْبَيْهَقِيُّ : وَأَسْلَمُهَا الْإِيمَانُ بِلَا كَيْفٍ ، وَالسُّكُوتُ عَنِ الْمُرَادِ إِلَّا أَنْ يَرِدَ ذَلِكَ عَنِ الصَّادِقِ ، فَيُصَارُ إِلَيْهِ . مِنَ الدَّلِيلَ عَلَى ذَلِكَ اتِّفَاقُهُمْ عَلَى أَنَّ التَّأْوِيلَ الْمُعَيَّنَ غَيْرُ وَاجِبٍ ، فَحِينَئِذٍ التَّفْوِيضُ أَسْلَمُ


It is evident that Ibn Hajr placed taking it's Dhahir and Haqiqah in the first of those views and attributed this view to the Mushabihahs, not to the Salaf and definately did not attribute it to the likes of Imam Malik,al-Awza'i, Sufyan Ibn 'Uyaynah, Sufyan al-Thawri and al-Layth as the webiste as-salaf claims:


يتضح معنى قولهم «أمروها كما جاءت» بما ورد في هذه الآثار التي تُبيّن إثباتهم للمعنى الظاهر قولا واحدًا

What is also evident is that the third view which Hafidh Ibn Hajr attributes to the Jamhur al-Salaf viz. the Four Imams, the two Sufyans, the two Hammads, al-Awza'i, al-Layth and others (some of which the webiste - as salaf - claimed that they took upon the Dhahir) is that they have taken them as they (The Ahadith on Attributes etc) came.

So it is clear from Shaykh al-Islam's statement that pass them as they come doesn't mean it is taking the literal / apparent meaning.

Sorry for going off topic.

Wallahu A'lam.

[Gmvkgkmn]

Why do some people get the statement of the Salaf: أمروها كما جاءت (Pass them as they have come) and say it is referring to المعنى الظاهر (The Apparent Meaning), how could they manipulate it to mean such without any evidence from the Salaf?

In this effort, one can clearly see they have bought forward no statements of the Ulama of the Salaf clearly stating that Pass them as they come to mean Apparent Meaning:

http://as-salaf.com/article.php?aid=68&lang=ar

How do you translate Dhahir = الظاهر = Apparent Literal Obvious ?

let us understand the whole issue and not be prejudiced or have a knee-jerk reaction. Understand the issue from both sides.

I don't understand why the brothers simply ignore Bayhaqi and Khattabi when they mentioned the madhhab of salaf salih ? There are several reports infact. Which I will posting soon.

do these brothers really read the posts or just ignore them and instead of making it discussion carry on with same old articles. We would like to engage in discussion ?

So if the meaning is not known or unknown why do Asharites affirm the seven attributes or why do they translate it into english. It should be something "unknown" like for example Shaykh Faraz Rabbani translated the Attributes of Allah
"Allah has seven affirmative attributes, which you mentioned: Knowledge, Will, Power, Life, Hearing, Seeing, and Speech. These have seven attributes that relate to them, which are Allah's being Knowing, Willing, Powerful, Living, Hearing, Seeing, and Speaking."

I don't see here the quote of Ibn Hajar being applied or see the quote of Subki being applied
فَمِنْهُمْ مَنْ حَمَلَهُ عَلَى ظَاهِرِهِ وَحَقِيقَتِهِ ، وَهُمُ الْمُشَبِّهَةُ ، تَعَالَى اللَّهُ عَنْ قَوْلِهِمْ .
What does Knowledge Power Life Hearing Seeing Speech mean ?
To be hearing we know that it requires ear/ear drums/ brain/ blood and many other things ?
How come there is no tashbeeh here and why is that they have translated it to the apparent meaning.


All in agreement with Madhhab of Salaf just like Hafidh Abu Sulayman al-Khattabi (d. 386 AH) said

أَخْبَرَنَا أَبُو بَكْرِ بْنُ الْحَارِثِ الْفَقِيهُ، أنا أَبُو مُحَمَّدِ بْنُ حَيَّانَ أَبُو الشَّيْخِ الْأَصْبَهَانِيُّ، قَالَ: وَفِيمَا أَجَازَنِي جَدِّي يَعْنِي مَحْمُودَ بْنَ الْفَرَحِ قَالَ: قَالَ إِسْحَاقُ بْنُ [ص:377] رَاهَوَيْهِ: سَأَلَنِي ابْنُ طَاهِرٍ عَنْ حَدِيثِ النَّبِيِّ صَلَّى اللهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ ـ يَعْنِي فِي النُّزُولِ ـ فَقُلْتُ لَهُ: النُّزُولُ بِلَا كَيْفٍ.

قَالَ أَبُو سُلَيْمَانَ الْخَطَّابِيُّ: هَذَا الْحَدِيثُ وَمَا أَشْبَهَهُ مِنَ الْأَحَادِيثِ فِي الصِّفَاتِ كَانَ مَذْهَبُ السَّلَفِ فِيهَا الْإِيمَانَ بِهَا، وَإِجْرَاءَهَا عَلَى ظَاهِرِهَا وَنَفْيَ الْكَيْفِيَّةِ عَنْهَا. وَذَكَرَ الْحِكَايَةَ الَّتِي
[Hafidh Bayhaqi says] Abu Sulayman al-Khattabi (d. 386 AH) said: “As for this hadith and whatever resembles it from the hadith of Allah’s attributes, the madhab of the Salaf in regards to them was to believe in them, and pass them on their Dhahir (literal/apparent meaning) and negate the kayfiyyah (howness) from it.” and he mentioned that story. --- mentioned by Bayhaqi in his book Asma wa Sifat
http://www.sonnaonline.com/BookTabwe...?RootID=631894
http://www.sonnaonline.com/Search.as...A7%D9%87%D8%B1



الْأَسْمَاءُ وَالصِّفَاتُ لِلْبَيْهَقِيِّ >> بَابُ مَا جَاءَ فِي قَوْلِ اللَّهِ عَزَّ وَجَلَّ : هَلْ يَنْظُرُونَ >>
الطرف :بَعَثَ إِلَيْنَا نَبِيًّا ، نُقِلَ إِلَيْنَا عَنْهُ أَخْبَارٌ بِهَا نُحَلِّلُ الدِّمَاءَ ...

902 أَخْبَرَنَا أَبُو عَبْدِ اللَّهِ الْحَافِظُ ، قَالَ : سَمِعْتُ أَبَا زَكَرِيَّا الْعَنْبَرِيَّ ، يَقُولُ : سَمِعْتُ أَبَا الْعَبَّاسِ مُحَمَّدَ بْنَ إِسْحَاقَ الثَّقَفِيَّ يَقُولُ : سَمِعْتُ الْحَسَنَ بْنَ عَبْدِ الْعَزِيزِ الْجَرْوِيَّ ، يَقُولُ : سَمِعْتُ قَاضِيَ فَارِسٍ يَقُولُ : قَالَ إِسْحَاقُ بْنُ رَاهَوَيْهِ : دَخَلْتُ يَوْمًا عَلَى عَبْدِ اللَّهِ بْنِ طَاهِرٍ فَقَالَ لِي : يَا أَبَا يَعْقُوبَ ، تَقُولُ إِنَّ اللَّهَ يَنْزِلُ كُلَّ لَيْلَةٍ ؟ فَقُلْتُ لَهُ : وَيَقْدِرُ . فَسَكَتَ عَبْدُ اللَّهِ . قَالَ أَبُو الْعَبَّاسِ : أَخْبَرَنِي الثِّقَةُ مِنْ أَصْحَابِنَا قَالَ : سَمِعْتُ إِسْحَاقَ بْنَ رَاهَوَيْهِ يَقُولُ : دَخَلْتُ عَلَى عَبْدِ اللَّهِ بْنِ طَاهِرٍ فَقَالَ لِي : يَا أَبَا يَعْقُوبَ ، تَقُولُ إِنَّ اللَّهَ يَنْزِلُ كُلَّ لَيْلَةٍ ؟ فَقُلْتُ : أَيُّهَا الْأَمِيرُ إِنَّ اللَّهَ تَعَالَى بَعَثَ إِلَيْنَا نَبِيًّا ، نُقِلَ إِلَيْنَا عَنْهُ أَخْبَارٌ بِهَا نُحَلِّلُ الدِّمَاءَ ، وَبِهَا نُحَرِّمُ ، وَبِهَا نُحَلِّلُ الْفُرُوجَ ، وَبِهَا نُحَرِّمُ ، وَبِهَا نُبِيحُ الْأَمْوَالَ وَبِهَا نُحَرِّمُ ، فَإِنْ صَحَّ ذَا صَحَّ ذَاكَ ، وَإِنْ بَطَلَ ذَا بَطَلَ ذَاكَ . قَالَ : فَأَمْسَكَ عَبْدُ اللَّهِ *






الْأَسْمَاءُ وَالصِّفَاتُ لِلْبَيْهَقِيِّ >> بَابُ مَا جَاءَ فِي قَوْلِ اللَّهِ عَزَّ وَجَلَّ : هَلْ يَنْظُرُونَ >>
الطرف :النُّزُولُ بِلَا كَيْفٍ . قَالَ أَبُو سُلَيْمَانَ الْخَطَّابِيُّ : هَذَا الْحَدِيثُ ...

905 أَخْبَرَنَا أَبُو بَكْرِ بْنُ الْحَارِثِ الْفَقِيهُ ، أنا أَبُو مُحَمَّدِ بْنُ حَيَّانَ أَبُو الشَّيْخِ الْأَصْبَهَانِيُّ ، قَالَ : وَفِيمَا أَجَازَنِي جَدِّي يَعْنِي مَحْمُودَ بْنَ الْفَرَحِ قَالَ : قَالَ إِسْحَاقُ بْنُ رَاهَوَيْهِ : سَأَلَنِي ابْنُ طَاهِرٍ عَنْ حَدِيثِ النَّبِيِّ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ ـ يَعْنِي فِي النُّزُولِ ـ فَقُلْتُ لَهُ : النُّزُولُ بِلَا كَيْفٍ . قَالَ أَبُو سُلَيْمَانَ الْخَطَّابِيُّ : هَذَا الْحَدِيثُ وَمَا أَشْبَهَهُ مِنَ الْأَحَادِيثِ فِي الصِّفَاتِ كَانَ مَذْهَبُ السَّلَفِ فِيهَا الْإِيمَانَ بِهَا ، وَإِجْرَاءَهَا عَلَى ظَاهِرِهَا وَنَفْيَ الْكَيْفِيَّةِ عَنْهَا . وَذَكَرَ الْحِكَايَةَ الَّتِي *


عرض كتاب>> الْأَسْمَاءُ وَالصِّفَاتُ لِلْبَيْهَقِيِّ >>
بَابُ مَا جَاءَ فِي قَوْلِ اللَّهِ عَزَّ وَجَلَّ : هَلْ يَنْظُرُونَ
الْمَلَائِكَةُ يَجِيئُونَ فِي ظُلَلٍ مِنَ الْغَمَامِ ، وَاللَّهُ عَزَّ وَجَلَّ يَجِيءُ
" يَنْزِلُ اللَّهُ عَزَّ وَجَلَّ كُلَّ لَيْلَةٍ إِلَى سَمَاءِ الدُّنْيَا حِينَ
" يَنْزِلُ اللَّهُ إِلَى السَّمَاءِ الدُّنْيَا لِشَطْرِ اللَّيْلِ ـ أَوْ لَثُلُثِ
اللَّهَ عَزَّ وَجَلَّ يُمْهِلُ حَتَّى يَمْضِيَ ثُلُثَا اللَّيْلِ ثُمَّ يَهْبِطُ فَيَقُولُ
" يَنْزِلُ اللَّهُ عَزَّ وَجَلَّ إِلَى سَمَاءِ الدُّنْيَا فِي ثُلُثِ اللَّيْلِ
أَخَذْنَا دِينَنَا هَذَا عَنِ التَّابِعِينَ عَنْ أَصْحَابِ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ
بَعَثَ إِلَيْنَا نَبِيًّا ، نُقِلَ إِلَيْنَا عَنْهُ أَخْبَارٌ بِهَا نُحَلِّلُ الدِّمَاءَ
آمَنْتُ بِرَبٍّ يَفْعَلُ مَا يَشَاءُ . قَالَ فَرَضِيَ عَبْدُ اللَّهِ كَلَامِي
إِذَا أَنْتَ لَمْ تُؤْمِنْ أَنَّ لَكَ رَبًّا يَفْعَلُ مَا يَشَاءُ ،
النُّزُولُ بِلَا كَيْفٍ . قَالَ أَبُو سُلَيْمَانَ الْخَطَّابِيُّ : هَذَا الْحَدِيثُ
امْضُوا الْأَحَادِيثَ عَلَى مَا جَاءَتْ *
أَمِرُّوهَا كَمَا جَاءَتْ بِلَا كَيْفِيَّةٍ *
يَنْزِلُ كَيْفَ يَشَاءُ قَالَ أَبُو سُلَيْمَانَ رَحِمَهُ اللَّهُ : " وَإِنَّمَا
" إِذَا رَأَيْتُمُ الَّذِينَ يَتَّبِعُونَ مَا تَشَابَهَ مِنْهُ فَأُولَئِكَ الَّذِينَ سَمَّى

reported by Imam Bayhaqi in his Asma wa sifat check the link

ٌrough translations:

Ishaq ibn Rahawaih said: One day I entered upon Abdullah bin Tahir who said to me:
O Abu Yacoub: You say that Allah Descends every night ?
I [Ishaq ibn Rahawaih] replied: He Can
[Amir of Khurasan]: He kept silent.

....Another detailed report.... I heard Ishaq ibn Rahawaih say: I entered upon Abdullah ibn Tahir who said to me: O Abu Yacoub: You say that Allah Descends every night ?
I [Ishaq ibn Rahawaih] replied: O Amir, Allah has sent us a Prophet, whose sayings/reports/narrations have been narrated/reported to us by which
- we legalise blood (execution) and by which we don't execute,
- by which we legalise Furooj ( intercourse ) and by which we make it haram
- by which we legalise monetary benefits and by which we make it haram
- so if that is right then this is also right and if that is wrong then this is also wrong.


Ishaq ibn Rahawaih said: Ibn Tahir ( the jahmi/mutazili influenced ruler of khurasan ) asked me about the hadeeth of Prophet -- [the hadeeth] of nuzool ( descent ) -- so I [ishaq ibn Rahawaih] replied to him: Descent (nuzool) is without How ( bila Kayf = We don't know HOW Allah :tala: does it but we know He :tala: Does It )



----------

You can clearly see that the Salaf said about Nuzool ( descend ) and other attributes like istawa.

If they didn't know what it meant then istawa wouldn't have become sifat fieliyya, it would be something unknown. Salaf would have said, we don't know what istawa means or Asharis would have said we don't know what those 7 attributes meant. But don't see that, rather we see, they said, we know what it means but don't know HOW.
That is why the Asharis like Abu Bakr ibn Arabi and Qadi Iyad said about Malik's statement on Istawa that istawa is KNOWN but the modality/howness/kayfiyyah is not known.

[Gmvkgkmn]

http://as-salaf.com/article.php?aid=68&lang=ar

I think you missed this post on that website http://www.as-salaf.com/article.php?aid=110&lang=ar
الإيمان بنصوص الصفات على ظاهرها
إعداد: أم عبد الله الميساوي
لـ« موقع عقيدة السلف الصالح »

and http://www.as-salaf.com/article.php?aid=105&lang=ar
and http://as-salaf.com/article.php?aid=101&lang=ar
and http://as-salaf.com/article.php?aid=82&lang=ar

they even have the quote of Imam Anwar Shah Kashmiri on Dhahir


محمد أنور شاه الكشميري الحنفي :
قال في شرحه لسنن الترمذي: «واعلم أن المشابهات مثل نزول الله إلى السماء الدنيا، واستواءه على العرش، فراي السلف فيها الإيمان على ظاهره ما ورد إمهاله على ظاهره بلا تأويل ولا تكييف، ويفوض أمر الكيفية إلى الله تعالى » ثم ذكر كلاما طويلا في أقوال الفرق والمذاهب إلى أن قال: «فحاصل الباب أن نؤمن بالمتشابهات كما وردت بظاهرها ونفوض التفاصيل إلى الله» (17)
العرف الشذي شرح سنن الترمذي (ج1 ص416 و418) تصحيح محمود شاكر/ دار إحياء التراث العربي– بيروت/ الطبعة الأولى 1425هـ - 2004م

So you can clearly see, tafwid is for Kayfiyyah (modality/howness) and not the for Istawa ( the meaning ). Again, Istawa is known but how is unknown..

Shaykh Riyad al-Haqq

[neniajany]

Brother Abul Hussain, my point of contention wasn't anything to with Dhaahir or Tafweedh, rather the statement 'pass them as they come' to mean 'take the Apparent meaning' which is not the case according Hafidh Ibn Hajr al-'Asqalani.

How do you translate Dhahir = الظاهر = Apparent Literal Obvious ?

Some people may translate it as literal, and some apparent.

I don't understand why the brothers simply ignore Bayhaqi and Khattabi when they mentioned the madhhab of salaf salih ? There are several reports infact. Which I will posting soon. I will come to their quote.

So if the meaning is not known or unknown why do Asharites affirm the seven attributes or why do they translate it into english. It should be something "unknown" like for example Shaykh Faraz Rabbani translated the Attributes of Allah

"Allah has seven affirmative attributes, which you mentioned: Knowledge, Will, Power, Life, Hearing, Seeing, and Speech. These have seven attributes that relate to them, which are Allah's being Knowing, Willing, Powerful, Living, Hearing, Seeing, and Speaking." This is because Sifaatuhu al-Dhaatiyyah is something that is classed as Esseential Attribute, part of the Essence of Allah - you cannot seperate them from Allah. You may want to refer Imam Abu Hanifah's al Fiqh al Akbar as he talks about it (maybe il post it later) - and this is something pre-dating the Ash'aris.

I don't see here the quote of Ibn Hajar being applied or see the quote of Subki being applied
فَمِنْهُمْ مَنْ حَمَلَهُ عَلَى ظَاهِرِهِ وَحَقِيقَتِهِ ، وَهُمُ الْمُشَبِّهَةُ ، تَعَالَى اللَّهُ عَنْ قَوْلِهِمْ .
What does Knowledge Power Life Hearing Seeing Speech mean ?
To be hearing we know that it requires ear/ear drums/ brain/ blood and many other things ?
How come there is no tashbeeh here and why is that they have translated it to the apparent meaning. I think you are missing the point Brother, your using the creation as a yardstick for Allah, which is the first mistake. The Creation needs ear drums to hear, but Allah doesn't, the creation needs retina / pupils etc to see but Allah doesn't So Allah does hears and Sees without a how.

But the Nuzool is an action that requires movement - and this cannot be regarded as an Essential Attribute of Allah (like the first Seven are - because to deny the seven dhaatiyyah sifaats would render a Muslim, Kafir simply because they are essential attributes of Allah)).

So essentially there is nothing wrong in translating the Sifaatuhu al-Dhaatiyyah (though there is nothing wrong with translating other words like Yad, Ayn into other languages.)

All in agreement with Madhhab of Salaf just like Hafidh Abu Sulayman al-Khattabi (d. 386 AH) said

أَخْبَرَنَا أَبُو بَكْرِ بْنُ الْحَارِثِ الْفَقِيهُ، أنا أَبُو مُحَمَّدِ بْنُ حَيَّانَ أَبُو الشَّيْخِ الْأَصْبَهَانِيُّ، قَالَ: وَفِيمَا أَجَازَنِي جَدِّي يَعْنِي مَحْمُودَ بْنَ الْفَرَحِ قَالَ: قَالَ إِسْحَاقُ بْنُ [ص:377] رَاهَوَيْهِ: سَأَلَنِي ابْنُ طَاهِرٍ عَنْ حَدِيثِ النَّبِيِّ صَلَّى اللهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ ـ يَعْنِي فِي النُّزُولِ ـ فَقُلْتُ لَهُ: النُّزُولُ بِلَا كَيْفٍ.

قَالَ أَبُو سُلَيْمَانَ الْخَطَّابِيُّ: هَذَا الْحَدِيثُ وَمَا أَشْبَهَهُ مِنَ الْأَحَادِيثِ فِي الصِّفَاتِ كَانَ مَذْهَبُ السَّلَفِ فِيهَا الْإِيمَانَ بِهَا، وَإِجْرَاءَهَا عَلَى ظَاهِرِهَا وَنَفْيَ الْكَيْفِيَّةِ عَنْهَا. وَذَكَرَ الْحِكَايَةَ الَّتِي
[Hafidh Bayhaqi says] Abu Sulayman al-Khattabi (d. 386 AH) said: “As for this hadith and whatever resembles it from the hadith of Allah’s attributes, the madhab of the Salaf in regards to them was to believe in them, and pass them on their Dhahir (literal/apparent meaning) and negate the kayfiyyah (howness) from it.” and he mentioned that story. --- mentioned by Bayhaqi in his book Asma wa Sifat You translated this:

وَإِجْرَاءَهَا عَلَى ظَاهِرِهَا

to this:

pass them on their Dhahir (literal/apparent meaning)

Why is there 'meaning' there in brackets? it is not in the Arabic - it is just another assumption to me.

It could be pass them on their Dhaahir (texts / words / alfaaz) as they come, which would be more credible - because you dont pass the meaning as they come, because you dont see the meaning you see the texts and words - you pass the text from Qur'an and Sunnah on Sifaat as they come, simply because you hear it or you see it textually.

In Lum'ah al-I'tiqad by Ibn Qudama al-Maqdisi, he states:

وكل ما جاء في القرآن أو صح عن المصطفى عليه السلام صفات الرحمن وجب الإيمان به وتلقيه بالتسليم والقبول وترك التعرض له بالرد والتأويل والتشبيه والتمثيل وما أشكل من ذلك وجب إثباته لفظا وترك التعرض لمعناه ونرد علمه إلى قائله ونجعل عهدته على ناقله اتباعا لطريق الراسخين في العلم الذين أثنى الله عليهم في كتابه المبين بقوله سبحانه وتعالى ‏‏(والراسخون في العلم يقولون آمنا به كل من عند ربنا)‏‏ آل عمران 7 وقال في ذم مبتغي التأويل لمتشابه تنزيله فأما الذين في قلوبهم زيغ فيتبعون ما تشابه منه ابتغاء الفتنة وابتغاء تأويله وما يعلم تأويله إلا الله آل عمران 7 فجعل ابتغاء التأويل علامة على الزيغ وقرنه بابتغاء الفتنة في الذم ثم حجبهم عما أملوه وقطع أطماعهم عما قصدوه بقوله سبحانه وما يعلم تأويله إلا الله ‏.‏


"Whatever of [these reports that we find] difficult [to comprehend] it is required to affirm its wordingand to forsake delving into its meaning. We [rather] entrust knowledge of its reality to He who
has spoken it"

We affirm the lafz because Allah and His Raool said it. this doesn't mean take the literal meaning.

Again i dont want to argue Dhaahir and Tafweedh.

So posting from their site what Imam Shah Anwar al-Kashmiri had to say on Dhaahir is of no use because this doesnt really tackle what i said, that: Pass them as they come doesn't mean take it's Dhaahir meaning according to Shaykh al-Islam Hafidh Ibn Hajr - because of the fact that he differentiated between them.

Wallahu A'lam

[Lerpenoaneway]

@ suleimanibnsalim

I had written a long post but the browser crashed. anyway, the point is that we have to unbiased and examine arguments from both sides. I think you understand the Ashari creed better than me so, I would be asking you to explain me.





What does Imam al-Haramain Abul Ma`ali Juwayni mean about TWO HANDS TWO EYES FACE in his book al-Irshad ??



suleimanibnsalim I want you to explain to me the position of Imam Haramayn on Two Hands, Two Eyes and Face......
what does it mean ?

Did Imam al Haramayn not repudiate his positions in Kitab al Irshad and his final stance is what is in his Risala al Nizamiyya. Besides that, where does he say that he personally believed that Allah has "Two eyes"? Same with Izz ibn Abdas Salam and al-Baqillani.. Explain where they personally affirmed it.

You seem to believe that Allah has aynayan, so please provide just one Sahih hadith that prooves this rather than quotes ascribed to men who can make mistakes in creed unlike Anbiyya.