[Siffidiolla]

All,

Folks let’s have a polite and Academic discussion on the issue.

South Africa is a Non-Muslim country ruled by Non-Muslims but to the best of knowledge:

a) It DOES NOT restrict or impede the practise of Islamic Shariah
b) It IS NOT AT WAR with Islam or Muslims (Actually, I don't know???Do they have troops in Afghanistan or Iraq or elsewhere in Muslim lands on combat duty?)

So why:

1) Is it Wajib to make Hijrah from South Africa?
2) Is it prudent or beneficial to move from South Africa where a man can have a Beard or woman can cover her face to a place like Tunisia or Libya where both are extremely difficult?

What and When?

Does Hijrah become Wajib from Non-Muslim lands is it when the Islamic practises are suppressed or is it when the Government is at war with Muslims?

And more importantly clear text to prove your stance.



P.S: What about Reverts or 3rd/4th Generation Muslims who are born there? Does the same Hukum apply to them?

[Hoijdxvh]

for bringing up this topic. It is extremely relevant for all of us living in the West (although not all countries are like South Africa of course). Another thing is that a lot of the people who DO make the move seem to be coming back after a year or two. Just today I saw a brother at the masjid who "made hijrah to Syria" less than a year ago - apparently he has now returned.

Is it even feasible for the average-joe-Muslim (not a Dr./Ph.D./engineer...) to make a living in one of the Muslim countries (assuming one of them would let stay there)?

[Siffidiolla]

for bringing up this topic. It is extremely relevant for all of us living in the West (although not all countries are like South Africa of course). Another thing is that a lot of the people who DO make the move seem to be coming back after a year or two. Just today I saw a brother at the masjid who "made hijrah to Syria" less than a year ago - apparently he has now returned.

Is it even feasible for the average-joe-Muslim (not a Dr./Ph.D./engineer...) to make a living in one of the Muslim countries (assuming one of them would let stay there)?

I know of families breaking apart, getting divorced and coming back to the West in tatters but thats a different discussion for another day.

Lets start with South Africa and if thats controversial start with Venezuela where in a certain area there is a very good Sunni community with a Darul-uloom, Islamic School, Certified Halal food, separate graveyard and no restriction on Muslims in practising Shariah.

Is it Wajib to uproot from this community to go to Libya & Tunisia?

Yes I am discussing bubbles and there is a reason for that which I will get to later.

:- ) If you don't like my bubble, pick a bubble of your choice granted that its in a Non-Muslim land

[Hoijdxvh]

Lets start with South Africa...

Yes let's do that - sorry for going off-topic!

Is it Wajib to uproot from this community to go to Libya & Tunisia?

Tunisia shouldn't even be mentioned in my opinion... The Tunisian government is waging war on Islam and women are attacked and molested for wearing hijab. A Madkhali Salafi shaykh I talked to (who is Libyan) - and these people (Madkhalis) are famous for not wanting to make takfir on leaders no matter what - said to me that he had been to Tunisia and that it is not Dar ul-Islam and it should be opened anew (like any other Dar ul-Kufr). Anyway, I don't think anyone in their right mind would say that hijra to Tunisia is an option. ;-)

Yes I am discussing bubbles and there is a reason for that which I will get to later.

Can't wait!

[Jimambol]

can we break this down please?

im sure most of us are aware that in some certain circumstances hijrah becomes wajib for a muslim who is living in a non-muslim country. i would like to explore specific reasons that would render hijrah wajib.

after this we can discuss if there is a suitable place to make hijrah or not.

is that ok?

[Siffidiolla]

Tunisia shouldn't even be mentioned in my opinion... The Tunisian government is waging war on Islam and women are attacked and molested for wearing hijab. A Madkhali Salafi shaykh I talked to (who is Libyan) - and these people (Madkhalis) are famous for not wanting to make takfir on leaders no matter what - said to me that he had been to Tunisia and that it is not Dar ul-Islam and it should be opened anew (like any other Dar ul-Kufr). Anyway, I don't think anyone in their right mind would say that hijra to Tunisia is an option. ;-)

To the best of my knowledge those who declare Hijrah to be Wajib say that it is OBLIGATORY to move from Non-Muslim lands to Muslims lands.

Since there is no Islamic Khilafah any longer, they say that any Muslim country which is bordered (or surrounded by) other Muslim countries is Muslim land.

Therefore according to text book definition (of theirs) it will be OBLIGATORY to move from South Africa/Venezuela (etc.) to Tunisia.

If they say that its wajib to make Hijrah but NOT to Tunisia then I’ll have to ask for textual evidence again (for excluding Tunisia) because “technically” it’s a Muslim country. If they say that the reason for excluding Tunisia is based on Ijtehad then we will continue with the discussion further.

There is a reason why bubbles and specific examples are chosen in this query.

can we break this down please?

im sure most of us are aware that in some certain circumstances hijrah becomes wajib for a muslim who is living in a non-muslim country. i would like to explore specific reasons that would render hijrah wajib.

after this we can discuss if there is a suitable place to make hijrah or not.

is that ok?

When you say this there is ABSOLUTELY no disagreement from anyone. The discussion is a blanket "Hijrah being Wajib" from Non-Muslim lands to "Muslim lands" i.e. from South Africa to Tunisia or from Venezvela to Libya etc...

I humbly request you to keep your thoughts away for a little longer.

I am picking worst examples to make Hijrah to for a reason because I want to understand the "ruling".

[Jimambol]

I humbly request you to keep your thoughts away for a little longer.

[VonErmad4]

Inshallah i will try to find the texts about hijrah - when it becomes wajib. Meanwhile, let's concentrate on Darul Harb - America, UK, Canada and the European countries who have sent their armies to attack the Khilafah and Darul Islam instead of South Africa. How about frace and now holland which is about to put a ban on abaya?

Is it allowed to stay in Darul Harb on the pretext of tabligh? Is it even farz to do tabligh in Darul Harb? Can any ulama please put some light on this matter?

[Hoijdxvh]

I am picking worst examples to make Hijrah to for a reason because I want to understand the "ruling".

Gotcha!

Now we need one or more of the 'ulama here to explain the ruling!

[bashansasasasa]

Some of these questions and answers are related to the thread and put some things into perspective:

http://www.islam.tc/cgi-bin/askimam/...=6964&act=view

[Siffidiolla]

Inshallah i will try to find the texts about hijrah - when it becomes wajib. Meanwhile, let's concentrate on Darul Harb - America, UK, Canada and the European countries who have sent their armies to attack the Khilafah and Darul Islam instead of South Africa. How about frace and now holland which is about to put a ban on abaya?

Is it allowed to stay in Darul Harb on the pretext of tabligh? Is it even farz to do tabligh in Darul Harb? Can any ulama please put some light on this matter?

You have changed the question. : - )

If you say that under some circumstances Hijrah becomes Wajib then we have no problems with you. We are discussing general blanket rule "Hijrah is OBLIGATORY on Muslims from Non-Muslim lands to Muslim lands"

Blanket Fatwa.

P.S: I can categorically prove to you in the Hanafi Madhab Hijrah DOES NOT become wajib even if they ban you from Hajj and I will quote you text later and don't forget that Hajj is a Pillar of Islam.

[Jimambol]

You have changed the question. : - )

If you say that under some circumstances Hijrah becomes Wajib then we have no problems with you. We are discussing general blanket rule "Hijrah is OBLIGATORY on Muslims from Non-Muslim lands to Muslim lands"

Blanket Fatwa.

but is there such a blanket fatwa? are there people who endorse such a view? what is there reasoning behind it?

[VonErmad4]

You have changed the question. : - )

If you say that under some circumstances Hijrah becomes Wajib then we have no problems with you. We are discussing general blanket rule "Hijrah is OBLIGATORY on Muslims from Non-Muslim lands to Muslim lands"

Blanket Fatwa.

P.S: I can categorically prove to you in the Hanafi Madhab Hijrah DOES NOT become wajib even if they ban you from Hajj and I will quote you text later and don't forget that Hajj is a Pillar of Islam.

Please quote some fatwas, i don't think there are fatwas of this kind from Ulama of our times.

I will just sit back and see where this discussion leads to.

JazakAllah Khair

[Siffidiolla]

but is there such a blanket fatwa? are there people who endorse such a view? what is there reasoning behind it?

You see Hijrah is made FROM SPECIFIC CIRCUMSTANCES where your Islam, your Eeman, your life is in danger.

You may be in Bardford (UK) and these may be in danger.
You may be in Karachi (Pakistan) and these may be in danger.
You may be in Dammam (Saudia) and these may be in danger.

Conversely, you may be in South Africa living a Sunnah life, your family is following the Sunnah and your kids are being brought up in an Islamic environment, would you make Hijrah to Libya/Tunisia/Syria where you “may perhaps” be in a worst Islamic environment?

[Siffidiolla]

Please quote some fatwas, i don't think there are fatwas of this kind from Ulama of our times.

I will just sit back and see where this discussion leads to.

JazakAllah Khair

Quote you what exactly, I am Sorry? If this is about Hajj please ask me later and I will provide what I said specific to Hajj.

My question isn't about US/UK etc. its about a specific situation.

If you don't mind lets concentrate on the original query. Your patience will be much appreciated.



P.S: I will sign out and leave with the acknowledgement that I need to discuss the banning of Hajj later.

[bashansasasasa]

Here's more.

Rule Six: Abstention from corrupt society

http://www.central-mosque.com/fiqh/R...ngTableegh.htm

when does hijra for muslims in this day and age become wajib?

http://www.askimam.org/fatwa/fatwa.p...fbbdeadb948669

[Jimambol]

are you asking about muslims making hijrah from a non-muslim country to a 'muslim' country solely based on the fact that the country they have migrated to is considered muslim, and without regard to the welfare of their family, themselves, their livelyhood, their iman etc when migrating?

[Wahwlsnt]

[QUOTE=Colonel_Hardstone;528466]

I know of families breaking apart, getting divorced and coming back to the West in tatters but thats a different discussion for another day.

QUOTE]

Can you elaborate on this please (on another thread). We would like to leave UK in a few years and, like many people who haven't made hijra, have a somewhat idealised view of it. It would be helpful to get an idea of various pitfalls and problems that can commonly occur.

[Qxkmsxsx]

Man this salafi brother (very nice and humble one) keeps on bugging me about this topic. The context is making Hijrah from Canada to Egypt/Pakistan.
I told him that Brother times have changed and in my understanding one has to make the best effort to practice Islam and provide an Islamic environment to children. A lot of the challenges nowadays are global e.g. Internet, TV, protecting your gaze etc.
As a matter of fact it can argued that many Islamic things are easier to maintain in Canada. And that the concept of Darul Kufr and Darul Islam does not hold as the days of the Prophet PBUH and the Sahaba

So last time he told me that "Brother it is a matter of your Aqidah (doesn't take long before that word comes from the mouth of a salafi lol)" And that "I am not sure which scholars you are following but all of my scholars are unanimous on it". I was like ok lets talk about something else

The thing is I have not met any scholar (including senior ones) yet who told me that plan to make hijrah at the first possible opportunity.

Can someone share some specific fatwa that applies to Canada from reliable scholars.

[pKgGpUlF]

Just today I saw a brother at the masjid who "made hijrah to Syria" less than a year ago - apparently he has now returned.

why did this brother make hijrah and why did he choose syria?

what were his reasons for returning?