[Vapepreab]

There are four possible differential diagnoses involved in this person's condition:

1) Senile Dementia.

2) Personality disorder.

3) Paranoid Schizophrenia.

4) Major Depressive Disorder.

Show a Psychiatrist.

Wa salamu alaikum.

How about ablutophobia?

[zoppereurvito]

Does not the house smell [to be honest] ?

[Jourgenz]

Does not the house smell [to be honest] ?

The house smells horrendous - It smells of stools mixed with perfume. No one wants to stay home. My sisters stay at my older sister's home because it smells. This is a huge issue for my mum, since she likes to keep the house clean and he does the exact opposite, her and my dad have heated arguments. Its almost bordered divorce on several occasions and she has even felt sucidal. Now all she does it make dua and cry. What can she do ?

Having thought about it and taken the opinions of other members aboard, I have decided to make plans for his departure from the house. He has made my home a place of dirt and filth when it should be a place of purity, he causes arguments, is an attention seeker, lies, doesnt pray and drives everyone crazy. He needs to leave. I didn't want this to happen but we are left with no choice..

[valentinesdayyy]

The house smells horrendous - It smells of stools mixed with perfume. No one wants to stay home. My sisters stay at my older sister's home because it smells. This is a huge issue for my mum, since she likes to keep the house clean and he does the exact opposite, her and my dad have heated arguments. Its almost bordered divorce on several occasions and she has even felt sucidal. Now all she does it make dua and cry. What can she do ?

Having thought about it and taken the opinions of other members aboard, I have decided to make plans for his departure from the house. He has made my home a place of dirt and filth when it should be a place of purity, he causes arguments, is an attention seeker, lies, doesnt pray and drives everyone crazy. He needs to leave. I didn't want this to happen but we are left with no choice..

Brother,

Salams

My Sheikh once told us that there was an old man in Jaunpur village, he never prayed, never fasted but he never used to say anything ill from his mouth, he always used to say like your better etc. All his sons died and he still didnt say anything, but before his death Allah gave him tawfiq that he prayed Salah all year and he fasted all year, and he did tawbah, thereafter he died.

Another person was a magician, he killed numerous people, but Allah gave him tawfiq that before his death for 1 month he used to come to the mosque before azaan.

Sheikh sahib then said that there is a qawl of Imam Ahmed, that if Allah decides to forgive someone who is there to question him. He also said that it comes in hadith for 1 month and also 1 year prior to death... those conditions were both satisfied by both these men.

Remember in the eyes of the awaam these two men are the lowest of the low. One never prayed his whole life and the other killed people with magic.

Seek assistance from a qualified aamil. Sometimes different actions are taken by aamils that help determine if the person is afflicted with jinn or shir.

[adesseridopaw]

That would surely be the wrong course of action. He is your grandfather and as the parent of your father (or mother), they have a duty to look after him. A person who refuses to look after his/her parent at times of need, especially in their old age and especially in the mental state that your grandfather is in, cannot hope to prosper in this world or the next.

Please do reconsider the decision to expel him from your home. Believe me, I know from personal experience how difficult people can get in their own age and how a simple task, such as going to the toilet or putting a morsel into the mouth, can turn into a battle of wills and determination that can last hours at a time. But you have to put yourself in his shoes. It is often difficult for old people to move around and a bath can seem like a strenuous task. It can simply be that a bath feels like Everest and therefore, he puts is off and finds all sorts of excuses. Additionally, remaining in an impure state for prolonged periods can make one an easy target for shaytan and wasaawis which will contribute to his senile and befuddled state.

Try and be a bit more tolerant of him, difficult though it may be. Make ample use of air fresheners, open windows periodically and sponge him down with a flannel and bowl of warm water a few times in a day. If you are living in the UK you can arrange for personal carers (supplied by the council for a nominal, insignificant charge) who will come in three to four times a day and take him to the toilet, clean up any mess he has made, give him a daily shower and see to his other hygiene needs. If you live a country like the India, Pakistan, Africa etc where maids are readily available, you can consider employing a male assistant who will come in a few time a day and take care of his personal needs otherwise your mother or father (depending on whether he’s your maternal or paternal grandparent) should take the responsibility of doing so and in the process, gain immense reward and the pleasure of Allah. It will be difficult, but worth it in the Hereafter. He needs coaxing, patience, and a determined handler as well as someone who will do much of the hard work for him. Our parents looked after us when we were incapable of walking, talking, feeding ourselves and cleaning our waste. In their old age, it is our turn to return the favour.

Lastly, his story reminds of many people I know, in particular a homeless old man who used to live in the neighbourhood when I married. We were all quite petrified of him as he had this crazed look about him, would suffice by eating any scraps that fell into his lap, would shuffle instead of walking and never bathed or bothered getting up if he needed the loo. Every few weeks, my husband and a few of the locals would rustle up a clean pair of used clothes for him, put him on a make shift stretcher, cart him off to a hosepipe and secluded corner and give him a thorough bath. They’d then dress him and park him in a corner somewhere and after a couple of weeks they’d do it all over again. The locals felt a responsibility for him and took care of his needs themselves as he could not do it himself. I think, , if all your family did the same, albeit more regularly, he could become a path to paradise for you and an opportunity that you should not let go.

The Messenger of Allah said ‘He is doomed, he is doomed, he is doomed, the man whose parents, one or both of them, reach old age while he is alive and he does not enter Paradise through them.’

[mincbiori]

That would surely be the wrong course of action. He is your grandfather and as the parent of your father (or mother), they have a duty to look after him. A person who refuses to look after his/her parent at times of need, especially in their old age and especially in the mental state that your grandfather is in, cannot hope to prosper in this world or the next.

Please do reconsider the decision to expel him from your home. Believe me, I know from personal experience how difficult people can get in their own age and how a simple task, such as going to the toilet or putting a morsel into the mouth, can turn into a battle of wills and determination that can last hours at a time. But you have to put yourself in his shoes. It is often difficult for old people to move around and a bath can seem like a strenuous task. It can simply be that a bath feels like Everest and therefore, he puts is off and finds all sorts of excuses. Additionally, remaining in an impure state for prolonged periods can make one an easy target for shaytan and wasaawis which will contribute to his senile and befuddled state.

Try and be a bit more tolerant of him, difficult though it may be. Make ample use of air fresheners, open windows periodically and sponge him down with a flannel and bowl of warm water a few times in a day. If you are living in the UK you can arrange for personal carers (supplied by the council for a nominal, insignificant charge) who will come in three to four times a day and take him to the toilet, clean up any mess he has made, give him a daily shower and see to his other hygiene needs. If you live a country like the India, Pakistan, Africa etc where maids are readily available, you can consider employing a male assistant who will come in a few time a day and take care of his personal needs otherwise your mother or father (depending on whether he’s your maternal or paternal grandparent) should take the responsibility of doing so and in the process, gain immense reward and the pleasure of Allah. It will be difficult, but worth it in the Hereafter. He needs coaxing, patience, and a determined handler as well as someone who will do much of the hard work for him. Our parents looked after us when we were incapable of walking, talking, feeding ourselves and cleaning our waste. In their old age, it is our turn to return the favour.

Lastly, his story reminds of many people I know, in particular a homeless old man who used to live in the neighbourhood when I married. We were all quite petrified of him as he had this crazed look about him, would suffice by eating any scraps that fell into his lap, would shuffle instead of walking and never bathed or bothered getting up if he needed the loo. Every few weeks, my husband and a few of the locals would rustle up a clean pair of used clothes for him, put him on a make shift stretcher, cart him off to a hosepipe and secluded corner and give him a thorough bath. They’d then dress him and park him in a corner somewhere and after a couple of weeks they’d do it all over again. The locals felt a responsibility for him and took care of his needs themselves as he could not do it himself. I think, , if all your family did the same, albeit more regularly, he could become a path to paradise for you and an opportunity that you should not let go.

The Messenger of Allah said ‘He is doomed, he is doomed, he is doomed, the man whose parents, one or both of them, reach old age while he is alive and he does not enter Paradise through them.’

Is it Islamically wrong for children to send their parents to nursing homes or the like if they feel that they can provide better 24/7 care for the parents while they pay for the expenses?

[adesseridopaw]

Bismillah
His conduct puts every family memeber in danger and causes family strife. If you are the bread earner, it is your porogative and not your father. DO what is must even though we may dislike it.

He is unhygienic, stubborn, senile and bit gaga but he's still family. It's a bit melodramatic to say he's putting lives in danger.

Having read again and realised it is the brother's paternal grandfather we are discussing, then the responsibility lies on his father to take care of him as best as he can. His mother has no direct responsibility to take care of her father-in-law needs, but she and the children should be advised to try their best to support him in this and they will also have a share of the reward. A good wife encourages her husband to do good deeds and what could be more rewarding than serving parents in their old age? I think this family has already done much good by taking him in and putting up with his ways for six months, they will decide to increase this reward. I hope they at least try to find alternative solutions to making him comfortable and a part of the family in their own home before resorting to a nursing home. As mentioned, find him carers, pick him up and take him to the bath, get nappies for him (they are available from the local council or to buy online).

Please ponder on whether you would advise a parent to expel their child from the home if they acted like this? Would we so easily say 'He's a hazard, get rid of him!' or would we try every thinkable solution to overcome the problems? Our parents deserve the same as our children do, if not increased love and dedication.

Lastly, with regards to the Islamic stance on putting parents into a nursing home, it would really depend on many factors and it's better to consult a mufti on individual case scenarios. Generally speaking though, from an Islamic point of view it is the responsibility of the children to look after parents in their old age. If they cannot do so other family members should take the responsibility. It is not necessary to keep them with you living in the same home, but it is necessary to see their needs are addressed, they are happy, content, fulfilled and pleased with the arrangement. If the only place they can achieve that is a nursing home, then that is unfortunate, but would be permissible.

[adesseridopaw]

It is a sad state of affairs when we resort to words such as 'twisted, sick and lazy' for our parents who brought us up and cared for us until we were able to look after ourselves. Brother Nomadic, I mentioned I have personal experience of a situation very similar to this and know exactly what the brother is going through. I am speaking not as a detached observer, but as someone who knows first hand how frustrating and dire situations can become.

You are not abondoing him but simply priorotising your family over a sick man. Your parents and grandparents ARE your family.

I hope brother Khalla makes istikhara and decides upon a course of actions that is for the betterment of the deen, duniyah and aakhirah of him and his family, whatever that decision may be. May Allah enable us all to fulfill our obligation to Him and to those who have rights over us.

[Mqcawkzd]

Excellent posts Umhasan. On a general note about nursing homes...I volunteer at one and let me tell you there is not a single resident there that enjoys being there. It is a miserable place for elders to go, no matter how nice the place is. Every one of the elders want's to go home, period. Many who have lost there senses cry a lot and consistently ask to go home. If you are considering taking your parent to a nursing home, THINK AGAIN! It should not be an option.

[xyupi]

Excellent posts Umhasan. On a general note about nursing homes...I volunteer at one and let me tell you there is not a single resident there that enjoys being there. It is a miserable place for elders to go, no matter how nice the place is. Every one of the elders want's to go home, period. Many who have lost there senses cry a lot and consistently ask to go home. If you are considering taking your parent to a nursing home, THINK AGAIN! It should not be an option.

Slm,

Yes agreed. Nursing homes are not traditionally the Islamic option. It is like boarding school and no one enjoyed that (I was at boarding school...)

[pennadyFeet]

Assalamu'alaikum

Parents are the one who have taken care of us in this world. They should not be kept aside at there old age, rather they should be treated with respect and care as Allah will not be happy if we disrespect our parents and live without taking care of them. We should all try to take care of our parents even at their old ages . Allah will surely gift us for this . Insha allah .

[Jourgenz]

The discussion between UmHasan and Normadic is the dilema that has been replaying in my mind for the past six months - I just dont know what to do. I am still aligning with having him live somewhere else and my reasons below. I know I shouldnt list another's evil but I really need to make an informed decision and its probably a good idea that others know the extent of the problem.
___
# He lies alot. Infact, when he came from back home he said that no one fed him, bathed him etc etc and that was the very reason we took him. Once he started living with us he wouldnt do them and when people would visit us he would tell them that we dont feed him, lookafer or bath him. Basically, he damaged our family reputation.

# On another occasion, he pretended that one of my family member's poisened him and started screaming in pain. This was really bad because my mum and dad werent talking because of a fight over his dirtiness, and he probs thought she made the food (which luckily she didnt) and that would have made the situation even more worse. They were going to take him hospital but then he stopped acting. The problem is, my dad is a very simply minded/naive man and so he usually falls for his ploys.

# He only eats meat. He refuses (for the most part) to eat anything else. This creates alot of problems too because we dont always eat meat but my mum has to make meat for him also. If she doesn't, then her and dad start fighting.

# He 'pretends' to be ill. My dad being naive wastes money trying to restore his health. Once we gave him meds that started to fix his plegm issue and he stopped taking it. We already have a tough time putting food on the table and cannot be wasting money on meds he's not going to use.

# There is no peace in the house. Its tense all the time.

# He absolutely stinks! He is able to take a shower but does not want to for whatever reason. Even if we try to force him he will refuse to do so. On top of that, no praying, istinja after no1 or 2.

These are just some of the things I can think off the top of my head.

[papadopul]

People on an islamic forum shouldn't give advice that is unislamic. Khalla, you should treat him like you want to be treated and just like apa umhasan said, you wouldn't throw your kids out and you can't throw your parents out. Whatever he's like, he is your blood so work with him. Take on all the advice apa umhasan gave and then if it doesn't work come back here and ask again.

[TriammaMade]

r

People on an islamic forum shouldn't give advice that is unislamic. Khalla, you should treat him like you want to be treated and just like apa umhasan said, you wouldn't throw your kids out and you can't throw your parents out. Whatever he's like, he is your blood so work with him. Take on all the advice apa umhasan gave and then if it doesn't work come back here and ask again.

it seems people are ignoring kallas mother who is on the edge and has even contemplated suicide. she has a right to live seperately to the father in law, does she not? in which case, she definately should

the grandad also has a right to be looked after by his son so that right should be fulfilled but i dont see why the well being of kallas mother is being overlooked for a potential lunatic.

If the grandfather can demand his rights, then so can everyone else

[zoppereurvito]

There is something called Vegetarian Substitute or something that is a vegetarian item but tastes like Chicken....

[6ZCo3xuK]

The discussion between UmHasan and Normadic is the dilema that has been replaying in my mind for the past six months - I just dont know what to do. I am still aligning with having him live somewhere else and my reasons below. I know I shouldnt list another's evil but I really need to make an informed decision and its probably a good idea that others know the extent of the problem.
___
# He lies alot. Infact, when he came from back home he said that no one fed him, bathed him etc etc and that was the very reason we took him. Once he started living with us he wouldnt do them and when people would visit us he would tell them that we dont feed him, lookafer or bath him. Basically, he damaged our family reputation.

# On another occasion, he pretended that one of my family member's poisened him and started screaming in pain. This was really bad because my mum and dad werent talking because of a fight over his dirtiness, and he probs thought she made the food (which luckily she didnt) and that would have made the situation even more worse. They were going to take him hospital but then he stopped acting. The problem is, my dad is a very simply minded/naive man and so he usually falls for his ploys.

# He only eats meat. He refuses (for the most part) to eat anything else. This creates alot of problems too because we dont always eat meat but my mum has to make meat for him also. If she doesn't, then her and dad start fighting.

# He 'pretends' to be ill. My dad being naive wastes money trying to restore his health. Once we gave him meds that started to fix his plegm issue and he stopped taking it. We already have a tough time putting food on the table and cannot be wasting money on meds he's not going to use.

# There is no peace in the house. Its tense all the time.

# He absolutely stinks! He is able to take a shower but does not want to for whatever reason. Even if we try to force him he will refuse to do so. On top of that, no praying, istinja after no1 or 2.

These are just some of the things I can think off the top of my head.

The more I read your posts, the more I am convinced of your grandpa suffering from a serious Psy problem, particularly Schizophrenia. DO NOT do anything without taking a qualified opinion. WS.

[kHy87gPC]

Asalam Alykum WrWb,

Unfortunately this is a common problem with the desilands. I have witnessed it with a friends family and my cousins.

My cousins had the same problem. Their grandfather had the same complaints of not bathing or washing after toilet, he lied a lot, wouldnt eat, would create fights between my aunt and uncle. My cousins went through a lot in their childhood but they kept going with their head down. Later the grandpa died with natural death. Even though some of my cousins did misbehave with him, now they regret it.

Similar story with my friend, his grandmother would tell her son lies about his wife. Later, she would enjoy the fight.

I myself saw how disturbed the families got, some members were diagnosed with diseases and what not, but at the end of the day, they put up with it. They put their head down and spend the days.

Brother, its a test in itself. A severe test.

Remember that Man tends to reverse his cycle from the point it started. He becomes childish and behaves differently. Elderly, actually need love but they translate into very strange actions.

Please drop the idea of a nursing home, we muslims dont have that concept in our deen.
And schizophrenia and other mental disorders are highly UNLIKELY, as this grandpa has until now shown no such signs.

This test may be the toughest you all have to face but remember their is always ajer.

Be patient brother, may Allah SWT give you patience and Sabr. Ameen.

[zoppereurvito]

Unfortunately this is a common problem with the desilands. I have witnessed it with a friends family and my cousins.................

........This test may be the toughest you all have to face but remember their is always ajer.......

Be patient brother, may Allah SWT give you patience and Sabr. Ameen.

Generalization.
Aameen

The more I read your posts, the more I am convinced of your grandpa suffering from a serious Psy problem, particularly Schizophrenia. DO NOT do anything without taking a qualified opinion. WS.

Might be as well

After all who does not like to be clean after Istinjaa.

[6ZCo3xuK]

Please drop the idea of a nursing home, we muslims dont have that concept in our deen.
And schizophrenia and other mental disorders are highly UNLIKELY, as this grandpa has until now shown no such signs.

[TriammaMade]

Brother khalla should acknowledge the feelings of his mother first and foremost and we have not completely ignored her:

Nope, she has been ignored. Or at least the problems she is going through have been. Bro Khalla has already stated that divorce has been on the table a few times and that she is going through immense emotional pressure, as a result of which she has contemplated suicide. Maye Allah save us all from such thoughts. People don't contemplate suicide for a joke- this is serious. Telling her
to support her husband in this probably isn't going to help- I'm pretty sure thats what she has been trying to do so far.

But this does not resolve Khalla's father of his duty to his parents and there are so many options yet to be explored before he is expelled from the house. Nor does it remove the responsibility from Khalla and other family members. Khayr, I have said what I wanted to say and the decision is up to the family.

I never said Khalla's father should kick out his own father- I'm saying we need a better solution than just letting him live there. Maybe bro Khalla should arrange for his mother to live elsewhere if things are so bad- I am not advocating the break up of a family but I don't want a sister of mine to be in such a difficult position and I know for a fact, that if my own mother was in such a position, I'd do some CRAZY stuff that its best I don't even talk about

If in our relationships, with family members we all insisted on demanding our rights in every situation, there would leave no room for compassion and reward. Marriages are as much about forsaking our rights for the betterment of others and out of love for family members.

Rights are there for a reason. I don't see why a mother on the edge should give up her rights for someone who probably isn't even crazy, just a filthy person (no offence bro Khalla).

To those of you who are advocating that he be sent off to live some where else, please answer these two questions:

(1) Are you confident that your advice is in line with Islamic teachings? If so, on what basis?

(2) If you had a child who was as burdensome as this grandfather, would you still advise him to send the child off to live somewhere else?

As I haven't advocated neccessarily sending him out somewhere, I don't need to answer these questions

As for the rest of the problems that are surfacing between the mother and father, these are part of family life and need to be dealt with, with wisdom and patience.

Divorce isn't normally a part of family life, neither is suicide

The older children (Khalla and siblings) should do everything in their capability to reduce the burden and trouble caused to their mother by taking over the chores, pacifying, listening, keeping them separate etc. Khalla's father should exercise hikmah when dealing with situations between his wife and father show them both love and compassion and serve his father to the best of his capability. Family situations are difficult but may Allah reward all those involved.

Bro Khalla needs to look after his mother and make sure she doesn't do anything dodgy. He also needs to show his father that he is there to support him in his decisions, because we don't want bro Khalla's father to get depressed and drown under the weight of pressure either