[phsyalcvqh]

فَانْتَفَى بِهِ قَوْلُ مَالِكٍ بِالْإِرْسَالِ وَعِنْدَ الشَّافِعِيِّ مَحَلُّهُ مَا فَوْقَ السُّرَّةِ تَحْتَ الصَّدْرِ وَاسْتَدَلَّ لَهُ النَّوَوِيُّ بِمَا فِي صَحِيحِ ابْنِ خُزَيْمَةَ عَنْ وَائِلِ بْنِ حُجْرٌ { قَالَ صَلَّيْت مَعَ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ فَوَضَعَ يَدَهُ الْيُمْنَى عَلَى يَدِهِ الْيُسْرَى عَلَى صَدْرِهِ } وَلَا يَخْفَى أَنَّهُ لَا يُطَابِقُ الْمُدَّعَى , وَاسْتَدَلَّ مَشَايِخُنَا عَنْ النَّبِيّ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ أَنَّهُ قَالَ : { ثَلَاثٌ مِنْ سُنَن الْمُرْسَلِينَ وَذَكَرَ مِنْ جُمْلَتِهَا وَضْعَ الْيَمِينِ عَلَى الشِّمَالِ تَحْتَ السُّرَّةِ } لَكِنَّ الْمُخَرِّجِينَ لَمْ يَعْرِفُوا فِيهِ مَرْفُوعًا وَمَوْقُوفًا تَحْتَ السُّرَّةِ وَيُمْكِنُ أَنْ يُقَالَ فِي تَوْجِيهِ الْمَذْهَبِ : أَنَّ الثَّابِتَ مِنْ السُّنَّةِ وَضْعُ الْيَمِينِ عَلَى الشِّمَالِ وَلَمْ يَثْبُتْ حَدِيثٌ يُوجِبُ تَعْيِينَ الْمَحَلِّ الَّذِي يَكُونُ فِيهِ الْوَضْعُ مِنْ الْبَدَنِ إلَّا حَدِيثَ وَائِلٍ الْمَذْكُورَ , وَهُوَ مَعَ كَوْنِهِ وَاقِعَةَ حَالٍ لَا عُمُومَ لَهَا يُحْتَمَلُ أَنْ يَكُونَ لِبَيَانِ الْجَوَازِ فَيُحَالُ فِي ذَلِكَ كَمَا قَالَهُ فِي فَتْحِ الْقَدِيرِ عَلَى الْمَعْهُودِ مِنْ وَضْعِهَا حَالَ قَصْدِ التَّعْظِيمِ فِي الْقِيَامِ , وَالْمَعْهُودُ فِي الشَّاهِدِ مِنْهُ أَنْ يَكُونَ ذَلِكَ تَحْتَ السُّرَّةِ فَقُلْنَا بِهِ فِي هَذِهِ الْحَالَةِ فِي حَقِّ الرَّجُلِ بِخِلَافِ الْمَرْأَةِ فَإِنَّهَا تَضَعُ عَلَى صَدْرِهَا ; لِأَنَّهُ أَسْتَرُ لَهَا فَيَكُونُ فِي حَقِّهَا أَوْلَى

It seems you can not differentiate between the matn and the sharh of Ibn Nujaym. What you quoted was from the matn of Kanz by Nasafi. Learn the difference.

Also, where in the bolded parted does Nasafi conclude that it is recommended to place the hands on the chest? And how can you say this is from a Hanafi point of view while he is talking about the istidlal of the Shafi'iyya?

[InvertPrete]

I listened to it but that didn't help since I don't know urdu, so can you now tell us what he said?

It has been said that woman putting their hand on chest is proved via Ijma it has been proved as mention by abdullah bin ahmad(rh), about which none fuqaha brings any objection.

[DoterForeva]

It seems you can not differentiate between the matn and the sharh of Ibn Nujaym. What you quoted was from the matn of Kanz by Nasafi. Learn the difference.

Also, where in the bolded parted does Nasafi conclude that it is recommended to place the hands on the chest? And how can you say this is from a Hanafi point of view while he is talking about the istidlal of the Shafi'iyya?

Did you read it well ?

Ibn Nujaym states "what is established in the Sunnah is to place the right hand upon the left in prayer. There is no authentic hadith that establishes the place of placing them on the body except the aforementioned hadith of Wail (radiallahu anh)"

Ibn Amir al Hajj said the same in his Sharh Munyah.

[Vigeommighica]

Did you read it well ?

Ibn Nujaym states "what is established in the Sunnah is to place the right hand upon the left in prayer. There is no authentic hadith that establishes the place of placing them on the body except the aforementioned hadith of Wail (radiallahu anh)"

Ibn Amir al Hajj said the same in his Sharh Munyah.

I think you should translate well.

[DoterForeva]

I think you should translate well.

What is your translation of it then ?

[Vigeommighica]

You do the translation correctly.

I have quoted 2 of the giants of jarh and t'adil, need I say more?.

[DoterForeva]

You do the translation correctly.

I have quoted 2 of the giants of jarh and t'adil, need I say more?.

You claim the translation is not correct, thus you should provide better translation then. It is clear what Ibn Nujaym says i.e. the only authentic hadith that establishes the place of placing them on the body is the hadith of Wail (radiallahu anhu) as reported in Ibn Khuzaimah. Same says Ibn Amir al Hajj in Sharh Munyah. You seem to just want to ignore these facts.

Also Shawkaani said (Nayl ul Awtaar 2/87) there is no hadith more sahih then the hadith of Wail (radiallahu anhu) The Hanafi muhaddith al-Ayni quotes this hadith of Wail (radiallahu anhu) in his Umdat ul Qari yet he remains silent about is authencity (whereas in other matters he show the weaknesses of the opposite proofs)

The Hanafi muhaddith of these times Shauyb al Arnaut has declared the hadith in Musnad Ahmad of Hulb (radiallahu anh) to be Sahih li Ghayrihi (thus due supporting narrations) in his tahqiq of Musnad Ahmad.

[DenisLevvin]

There is a opinion of Imam Shafi'i regarding folding the hands on chest.

Allama Shamsul Haq Azeemaabadi said: From Shafi'i there three opinions has been reported. One is to fold the right hand over left, below the chest and above the navel. Second is to fold them on chest. This was recorded by the author of Al-Hidaya from Shafi'i. Al-Ayni said, this is mention in Al-Haawi from their books. And the third opinion is to fold them below the navel. This was mentioned by Allama Hashim As-Sindi in one of treatise on this topic.

قلت جاء عن الشافعي في الوضع ثلاث روايات إحداها أنه يضع يده اليمنى على يده اليسرى تحت الصدر فوق السرة والثانية أن يضع يده اليمنى على اليسرى على صدره وهي الرواية التي نقلها صاحب الهداية من الشافعي
وقال العيني إنها المذكور في الحاوي من كتبهم والثالثة أن يضع يده تحت السرة
ذكر هذه الروايات الثلاث العلامة هاشم السندي في بعض رسائله

Wassalam

As far as i know there is nothing related from al-Shafi'i about placing the hands on the chest. In al-Hawi al-Mawardi relates that al-Shafi'i, radiya Allahu anhu, says that the hands should be placed under the chest and above the navel.

[Vigeommighica]

You claim the translation is not correct, thus you should provide better translation then. It is clear what Ibn Nujaym says i.e. the only authentic hadith that establishes the place of placing them on the body is the hadith of Wail (radiallahu anhu) as reported in Ibn Khuzaimah. Same says Ibn Amir al Hajj in Sharh Munyah. You seem to just want to ignore these facts.

Also Shawkaani said (Nayl ul Awtaar 2/87) there is no hadith more sahih then the hadith of Wail (radiallahu anhu) The Hanafi muhaddith al-Ayni quotes this hadith of Wail (radiallahu anhu) in his Umdat ul Qari yet he remains silent about is authencity (whereas in other matters he show the weaknesses of the opposite proofs)

The Hanafi muhaddith of these times Shauyb al Arnaut has declared the hadith in Musnad Ahmad of Hulb (radiallahu anh) to be Sahih li Ghayrihi (thus due supporting narrations) in his tahqiq of Musnad Ahmad.

Where does it say 'authentic'?. Even if you argue this, do you give tarjih to the qawl of Allamah ibn Nujaym over Ibn hajar and ad-Dhahabi in the matters of Jarh and T'adil?.

Whatever the statements of scholars such as Shawkani. The bottom line is the hadith is weak. It has been proven clearly that مؤمل in the chain is weak. Statements such as 'the most sahih' is just wording to make it sound convincing. It is not a narration to make istidlaal from SIMPLE.

All you bring is ambiguous statements and at times false information to prove your view.

I have already told you only the narration which has مؤمل contain the wordings على صدره. Stop wasting my time by making me repeat the same statements.

[DoterForeva]

Stop wasting my time by making me repeat the same statements.

Yes you are wasting your time by constantly repeating your statements and not answering my points. I have no problem with hands below/above navel or chest, but you seem to have. Can you answer why Hanafi women place hands on chest and not navel (i already mentioned that consealment cannot be the reason since a woman is already ordered to conseal herself with proper dress) and give proof ? Will you ever be able to present proof?

[InvertPrete]

Can you answer why Hanafi women place hands on chest and not navel (i

It has been said that woman putting their hand on chest is proved via Ijma it has been proved as mention by abdullah bin ahmad(rh), about which none fuqaha brings any objection.

allready mentioned.

[DenisLevvin]

Salam aleikum Khali

The title of the thread is: Hanbali site says the Imaams Ahmad, Shafi and Malik agreed on folding hands on chest

And in your initial post it says:
Second opinion: Above the navel or on the chest. This was the opinion held by Imām Ahmad bin Hanbal ﴾ رحمه لله ﴿ and many of the حنابلة as well as the معتمد opinion of the مذهب of Imām Shafi’ī and the معتمد opinion of the مذهب of Imām Mālik. This is based upon the حديث that is :صحيح Wā'il ibn Hujr said: ﴾ رسول لله ﴿صلى الله عليه وسلم used to put his right hand upon his left and place them upon his chest.” [27] The quote in your first post is not easy to understand. It says that the second opinion is "above the navel or on the chest" and then later it says that this is the opinion of Ahmad and the mu'tamad of the shafi'i madhab. I tell you that the mu'tamad is above the navel and under the chest (not on the chest). This suggests that the title of the thread is problematic, to say the least.

And as i wrote earlier i dont think that al-Shafi'i said that the hands should be placed on the chest.

[Vigeommighica]

Yes you are wasting your time by constantly repeating your statements and not answering my points. I have no problem with hands below/above navel or chest, but you seem to have. Can you answer why Hanafi women place hands on chest and not navel (i already mentioned that consealment cannot be the reason since a woman is already ordered to conseal herself with proper dress) and give proof ? Will you ever be able to present proof?

I do not have to present any proof whatsoever because there is no sahih marfu' narration on the placing of the hands.

Firstly, in the begining of the thread you mention wrong views.

Then you falsely stated that Imam Nawawi and Ibn Hajar classed the narrations as authentic yet presented absolutely no proof of that.

Then, placing the hands on the forearms is kind of a proof for placing hands on the chest? LOL.

Then, after all this you want me to prove about women placing hands?.

Plus, you have not even replied to me in the other thread where I asked for proof.

[DoterForeva]

allready mentioned.

Its mentioned without any quote and/or proof.

[DoterForeva]

I do not have to present any proof whatsoever because there is no sahih marfu' narration on the placing of the hands.

According to Ibn Nujaym, Ibn Amir Hajj, Ibn Khuzaimah, Ibn Sayyid an-Nas, Shawkaani, Ibn Hajar, Nawawi, al Ayni, Shuayb al Arnaut, al Albani there is.

Firstly, in the begining of the thread you mention wrong views.

No me, but Ibn Farooq i simple transmitted what he stated.

Then you falsely stated that Imam Nawawi and Ibn Hajar classed the narrations as authentic yet presented absolutely no proof of that.

They have used as proof and remained silent about it while they clearly weakened the below navel narration. This shows clearly that they saw it either Hasan or Sahih. Just look how many times Muhaddith Zafar Usmani has said when examining certain ahadith in his Ileau us Sunan ''Ibn Hajar remained silent thus he regard it either Hasan or Sahih''

Then, placing the hands on the forearms is kind of a proof for placing hands on the chest? LOL.

I did not say that and you know that, because i said there is a authentic hadith which described the way the Prophet (salallahu alayhi was sallam) used to put his hands over one another: He put his right hand on top of his left hand, wrist and forearm.

Isn't such position difficult to achieve with the hands under the navel ?

Then, after all this you want me to prove about women placing hands?.

Plus, you have not even replied to me in the other thread where I asked for proof.

Yes, but there is no such proof existing. As for the other thread the proof is that in the narrations it is said the Prophet (salallahu alayhi was sallam) pointed during the tashahhud. No where it is said he (salallahu alayhi was sallam) pointed and then lowered, thus if no change is mentioned the asl is that it stays (in the form) as it was begun (until a state of change i.e. the taslim)

[Vigeommighica]

The Ahaadith narrated by Wa’il رضي الله عنه are as follows:

سنن البيهقي الكبرى ( ص 30 / ج 2 / المكتبة الشاملة )

2166 - أخبرنا أبو سعد أحمد بن محمد الصوفي أنبأ أبو أحمد بن عدي الحافظ ثنا بن صاعد ثنا إبراهيم بن سعيد ثنا محمد بن حجر الحضرمي حدثنا سعيد بن عبد الجبار بن وائل عن أبيه عن أمه عن وائل بن حجر قال حضرت رسول الله صلى الله عليه و سلم إذا أو حين نهض إلى المسجد فدخل المحراب ثم رفع يديه بالتكبير ثم وضع يمينه على يسراه على صدره ورواه أيضا مؤمل بن إسماعيل عن الثوري عن عاصم بن كليب عن أبيه عن وائل أنه رأى النبي صلى الله عليه و سلم وضع يمينه على شماله ثم وضعهما على صدره وأخبرنا أبو بكر بن الحارث ثنا أبو محمد بن حيان ثنا محمد بن العباس ثنا محمد بن المثنى ثنا مؤمل فذكره
In بذل المجهود فى حل سنن أبي داود ( ص 114 / ج 4 / دار البشائر الإسلامية ) the following quote proves that the hadith above cannot be used for istidlal at all:

وفى سنده محمد بن حجر ، قال الذهبي فى ((الميزان)) : له مناكير ، وقال البخاري : فيه بعض النظر ، وفى سنده أم عبد الجبار ، وهى أم يحيى لم أعرف حالها ولا اسمها.اه

صحيح ابن خزيمة ( ص 243 / ج 1 / المكتبة الشاملة )

479 - أخبرنا أبو طاهر نا أبو بكر نا أبو موسى نا مؤمل نا سفيان عن عاصم بن كليب عن أبيه عن وائل بن حجر قال صليت مع رسول الله صلى الله عليه و سلم ووضع يده اليمنى على يده اليسرى على صدره
Allamah Nimwi States in آثار السنن the words على صدره are غير محفوظة.

قال الشيخ النيموي فى آثار السنن (64-65/1) : رواه ابن خزيمة فى ((صحيحه)) وفى إسناده نظر ، وزيادة ((على صدره)) غير محفوظة ، وقال فى التعليق : قوله : رواه ابن خزيمة ، قلت : لم أظفر بصحيحه لكن غير واحد من المصنفين أوردوه فى تصانيفهم تعليقا ، وعزوه الى ابن خزيمة ، ولم ينقلوا إسناده.اه
This above quote answers your point about Shawkani saying that Ibn Khuzaimah classified as Sahih, since there is no sanad for it.

Furthermore Ibn Qayim States that no one apart from مؤمل mentions the words على صدره. (There is one other hadith which mentions it but it is not reliable and mentioned earlier).

إعلام الموقعين ( ص 432 / ج 2 / اقتباس من بذل )

لم يقل ((على صدره)) غير مؤمل بن إسماعيل
Furthermore the following have classed مؤمل as either weak or one who makes mistakes: ad-Dhahabi, Ibn Hajar, Ibn S’ad , Ibn Qani’ , Dar Qutni , al-Bukhari , Abu Hatim.

بذل المجهود ( ص 115 / ج 4 / دار البشائر الإسلامية )

قلت : مؤمل بن إسماعيل لينه غير واحد ، وقال الذهبي فى ((الكاشف)) : صدوق شديد فى السنة ، كثير الخطأ ، وقيل : دفن كتبه فحدث حفظا فغلط.

وقال الحافظ ابن حجر فى ((تهذيب التهذيب)) : قال البخاري : مؤمل منكر الحديث ، وقال ابن سعد : ثقة كثير الغلط ، وقال ابن قانع : صالح يخطئ ، وقال الدارقطني : ثقة كثير الخطأ ، وقال فى ((التقريب)) : صدوق سيئ الحفظ.
وقال ابت التركماني فى ((الجوهر النقى)) : قلت : مؤمل هذا قيل : إنه دفن كتبه فكان يحدث من حفظه فكثر خطؤه ، كذا ذكر صاحب ((الكامل)).

وفى ((الميزان)) : قال البخاري : منكر الحديث ، وقال أبو حاتم : كثير الخطأ ، وقال أبو زرعة : فى حديثه خطأ كثير، انتهي كلامه.
Imam Ahmed has narrated 3 ahaadith of different chains and Nasai has narrated and Abu Dawud and Ibn Majah etc of Wail رضي الله عنه yet none mention the words على صدره.

راجع : بذل المجهود ( ص 115 / ج 4 / دار البشائر الإسلامية )
This proves the words على صدره are not proven. There is no doubt in that. Shawakani has not mentioned the sanad or proof where Ibn Khuzaimah has classed it as sahih.As for saying Imam Nawawi and Ibn Hajar classed the hadith as sahih that is a blatant lie from you for which you have produced no proof rather I provided proof to the contrary.

فتح الباري ( ص 435 / ج 25 / المكتبة الشاملة )

وكذلك مؤمل بن إسماعيل في حديثه عن الثوري ضعف
You have wasted my time tonight when I was supposed to be researching another topic. Due to your blatant lying I had no option but to take out time.

and Allah Ta'ala Knows Best.

[rarpAcconavox]

It seems brother Khali is relying on the research of Ahlul-Hadith troublemakers.

[InvertPrete]

Isn't such position difficult to achieve with the hands under the navel ?

our navel isnt on our thigh

If folding hands on chest is not a valid opinion, why do Hanafi women fold their hands on chest ? Can you please answer this ?

Listen after 4:00

http://www.youtube.com/alittehaad#p/.../4/xIuLpGDYvb4

Its mentioned without any quote and/or proof.

He mentioned the quotation of allamah lucknawi in arabic. As siyaya , part 2 , page 156.

[Dumpishchaism]

The Hanafi muhaddith of these times Shauyb al Arnaut has declared the hadith in Musnad Ahmad of Hulb (radiallahu anh) to be Sahih li Ghayrihi (thus due supporting narrations) in his tahqiq of Musnad Ahmad.

Khali -

I challenge you publically to bring forth the full quote with a digital scan from Shaykh Shu'ayb al Arna'ut where you claimed that he declared the narration from Hulb (ra) to be Sahih li Ghayrihi in his tahqiq to the Musnad of Imam Ahmed. I want you to be very specific and show everyone here how he graded the narration from Hulb stating the placing of the hands upon the chest. If you can't do that then ask me to show it and see how truthful you really are.

Besides this, Shaykh Shuayb is not the only Hanafi Muhaddith alive today known for scholarship in hadith. There are others like the Syrian Shaykhs - Muhammad Awwama, Zuhayr al-Nasir who both live in Madina al Munawwara as far as I am aware.

[rarpAcconavox]

As far as I know, brother Khali is a follower of Harris Hammam and his imagined "Hanafi Mutaqaddimin" movement (with a whole two members!), and probably doesn't know much Arabic, if at all.

So, he probably wont be able to provide you with what you demand.