[DoterForeva]

Hanbali site says the Imaams Ahmad, Shafi and Malik agreed on folding hands on chest:

http://www.ibnfarooq.com/Lessons/Lesson22.pdf

Second opinion: Above the navel or on the chest. This was the opinion held by Imām Ahmad bin Hanbal ﴾ رحمه لله ﴿ and many of the حنابلة as well as the معتمد opinion of the مذهب of Imām Shafi’ī and the معتمد opinion of the مذهب of Imām Mālik. This is based upon the حديث that is :صحيح Wā'il ibn Hujr said: ﴾ رسول لله ﴿صلى الله عليه وسلم used to put his right hand upon his left and place them upon his chest.” [27] The well known Hanbalī scholar Imām Ibn Qāsim ﴾ رحمه لله ﴿ wrote in his Hāshiyah (notes) of ar Rawdh al-Murbi’ Sharh Zād al-Mustaqni’:

An-Nawāwī graded this saying of Alī as weak (regarding placing the hands below the navel). And it has been reported from Imām Ahmad to fold them on the chest and this is agreed upon by Imām Mālik and Imām Shafi’ī based upon the hadīth of Wā’il “ I saw ﴾ رسول لله ﴿صلى الله عليه وسلم praying with his hands folded upon his chest one upon the other. This was graded as Sahīh by Ibn Khuzimah and others and the حديث of Halb: I saw him (﴾ رسول لله ﴿صلى الله عليه وسلم ) folding his hands on his chest and this has been narrated Imām Ahmad. [31] Would like to see comments on this.

[Vigeommighica]

Hanbali site says the Imaams Ahmad, Shafi and Malik agreed on folding hands on chest:

http://www.ibnfarooq.com/Lessons/Lesson22.pdf


Would like to see comments on this.

Brother this is the Hanafi Q&A section. Hence you should not have placed this thread here.

Secondly, the stances itself need to be rechecked.

Thirdly, what do you know about checking the strength of Ahaadith?. If you know this field than give me your comment on the Hadith of Wa'il رضي الله عنه.

Fourthly, whatever stance the other madhaahib follow that is their stance. Why do you want to fill up this section unecessarily?.

Waiting for your comment instead!

Comment on this thread as well: http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/show...to-the-Hanafis

[johnuioyer]

What ibn Farook has written is completely inaccurate and dishonest to say the least, it's well known the position of the Hanabilah that they agree with the Ahnaf, and Imam Nawawi says in his sharh on Sahih that the position of the Shafi' madhab is above navel below chest, even though he mentions the narration of Sayyidina Wa'il, the only one who said on chest, if i remember correctly, is Ishaq bin Rahawayh.

[DoterForeva]

What ibn Farook has written is completely inaccurate and dishonest to say the least...

Isn't Ibn Farooq a member of SF ?

[Vigeommighica]

Isn't Ibn Farooq a member of SF ?

Answer the questions posed.

[DoterForeva]

Thirdly, what do you know about checking the strength of Ahaadith?. If you know this field than give me your comment on the Hadith of Wa'il رضي الله عنه.

As far as i have seen Imaam Nawawi did regard it as authentic, same for Ibn Hajar al Asqalani. Also Shawkaani, Ibn Sayyid an-Nas. From the Hanafis who said it is authentic Ibn Nujaym (see Bahrur Raiq) and Ibn Amir Hajj (Sharh Munya)

[phsyalcvqh]

As far as i have seen Imaam Nawawi did regard it as authentic, same for Ibn Hajar al Asqalani. Also Shawkaani, Ibn Sayyid an-Nas. From the Hanafis who said it is authentic Ibn Nujaym (see Bahrur Raiq)

This is the relevant part in Kanz mentioning that males should put their hands below the navel, together with the commentary of Ibn Nujaym: http://feqh.al-islam.com/Display.asp...ID=231&Sharh=0

Can you tell us where he stated what you claimed?

[rarpAcconavox]

Isn't Ibn Farooq a member of SF ?

Yes, and I know him personally. I disagree with what he wrote in that lesson, as, from what I've seen, the Shafi`s take the position of the above the navel, below the chest, Malikis take sadl, and Hanafis and Hanbalis take below the navel.

[Vigeommighica]

As far as i have seen Imaam Nawawi did regard it as authentic, same for Ibn Hajar al Asqalani. Also Shawkaani, Ibn Sayyid an-Nas. From the Hanafis who said it is authentic Ibn Nujaym (see Bahrur Raiq) and Ibn Amir Hajj (Sharh Munya)

I have got to say, just as I expected, a terrible response. In addition to what Brother Ansari said I want you to provide the reference of where Ibn Hajar and Imam Nawawi class the hadith as authentic.

Here below is the Hadith:

479 - أخبرنا أبو طاهر نا أبو بكر نا أبو موسى نا مؤمل نا سفيان عن عاصم بن كليب عن أبيه عن وائل بن حجر قال
صليت مع رسول الله صلى الله عليه و سلم ووضع يده اليمنى على يده اليسرى على صدره

In the chain of narrators there is مؤمل بن إسماعيل:

المغني فى الضعفاء للذهبي ( ص 174 / ج 2 / المكتبة الشاملة )

6547 - ت س ق / مؤمل بن اسماعيل صدوق مشهور وثق وقال البخاري منكر الحديث وقال أبو زرعة في حديثه خطأ كثير

ميزان الإعتدال للذهبي ( ص 151 / ج 3 / المكتبة الشاملة )

وقال أبو حاتم : صدوق شديد في السنة كثير الخطأ . وقال البخاري : منكر الحديث . وقال أبو زرعة : في حديثه خطأ كثير

الكشاف فى معرفة من له رواية فى الكتب الستة ( ص 123 / ج 1 / المكتبة الشاملة )

[ 5747 ] مؤمل بن إسماعيل البصري العمري مولاهم نزل مكة عن عكرمة بن عمار وشعبة وسفيان وعنه أحمد ومؤمل بن إهاب قال أبو حاتم صدوق شديد في السنة كثير الخطأ وقيل دفن كتبه وحدث حفظا فغلط مات 206 ت س ق
Furthermore ibn Hajar mentions:

فتح الباري ( ص 435 / ج 25 / المكتبة الشاملة )

وكذلك مؤمل بن إسماعيل في حديثه عن الثوري ضعف
مؤمل narrated from ثوري in the narration in question.

Hence the narration is weak even though it is mentioned by ibn Khuzaimah in his sahih.
I still await clarification on the stances you posted as well.

and Allah Ta'ala Knows Best.

[DoterForeva]

This is the relevant part in Kanz mentioning that males should put their hands below the navel, together with the commentary of Ibn Nujaym: http://feqh.al-islam.com/Display.asp...ID=231&Sharh=0

Can you tell us where he stated what you claimed?

فَانْتَفَى بِهِ قَوْلُ مَالِكٍ بِالْإِرْسَالِ وَعِنْدَ الشَّافِعِيِّ مَحَلُّهُ مَا فَوْقَ السُّرَّةِ تَحْتَ الصَّدْرِ وَاسْتَدَلَّ لَهُ النَّوَوِيُّ بِمَا فِي صَحِيحِ ابْنِ خُزَيْمَةَ عَنْ وَائِلِ بْنِ حُجْرٌ { قَالَ صَلَّيْت مَعَ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ فَوَضَعَ يَدَهُ الْيُمْنَى عَلَى يَدِهِ الْيُسْرَى عَلَى صَدْرِهِ } وَلَا يَخْفَى أَنَّهُ لَا يُطَابِقُ الْمُدَّعَى , وَاسْتَدَلَّ مَشَايِخُنَا عَنْ النَّبِيّ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ أَنَّهُ قَالَ : { ثَلَاثٌ مِنْ سُنَن الْمُرْسَلِينَ وَذَكَرَ مِنْ جُمْلَتِهَا وَضْعَ الْيَمِينِ عَلَى الشِّمَالِ تَحْتَ السُّرَّةِ } لَكِنَّ الْمُخَرِّجِينَ لَمْ يَعْرِفُوا فِيهِ مَرْفُوعًا وَمَوْقُوفًا تَحْتَ السُّرَّةِ وَيُمْكِنُ أَنْ يُقَالَ فِي تَوْجِيهِ الْمَذْهَبِ : أَنَّ الثَّابِتَ مِنْ السُّنَّةِ وَضْعُ الْيَمِينِ عَلَى الشِّمَالِ وَلَمْ يَثْبُتْ حَدِيثٌ يُوجِبُ تَعْيِينَ الْمَحَلِّ الَّذِي يَكُونُ فِيهِ الْوَضْعُ مِنْ الْبَدَنِ إلَّا حَدِيثَ وَائِلٍ الْمَذْكُورَ , وَهُوَ مَعَ كَوْنِهِ وَاقِعَةَ حَالٍ لَا عُمُومَ لَهَا يُحْتَمَلُ أَنْ يَكُونَ لِبَيَانِ الْجَوَازِ فَيُحَالُ فِي ذَلِكَ كَمَا قَالَهُ فِي فَتْحِ الْقَدِيرِ عَلَى الْمَعْهُودِ مِنْ وَضْعِهَا حَالَ قَصْدِ التَّعْظِيمِ فِي الْقِيَامِ , وَالْمَعْهُودُ فِي الشَّاهِدِ مِنْهُ أَنْ يَكُونَ ذَلِكَ تَحْتَ السُّرَّةِ فَقُلْنَا بِهِ فِي هَذِهِ الْحَالَةِ فِي حَقِّ الرَّجُلِ بِخِلَافِ الْمَرْأَةِ فَإِنَّهَا تَضَعُ عَلَى صَدْرِهَا ; لِأَنَّهُ أَسْتَرُ لَهَا فَيَكُونُ فِي حَقِّهَا أَوْلَى

[DoterForeva]

I have got to say, just as I expected, a terrible response. In addition to what Brother Ansari said I want you to provide the reference of where Ibn Hajar and Imam Nawawi class the hadith as authentic.

An-Nawawi did not mention any other Ahadith in Al-Khulasah then the hadith of Wail bin Hujr (radiallahu anh). Ibn Hajar has mentioned it in his Bulugh al Maram.

Ibn Rajab al Hanbali in his Sharh of Bukhari Fath ul Bari hadith 740 said that putting the hands on the chest:
Was narrated as the action of Ali (radiallahu anh)
Was narrated as the action of Sa'eed bin Jubair (rah)
An opinion by Imam Shafi'i (rah)
An opinion by Imam Ahmad (rah)


Another thing a authentic hadeeth which described the way the Prophet (salallahu alayhi was sallam) used to put his hands over one another: He put his right hand on top of his left hand, wrist and forearm.

Isn't such position difficult to achieve with the hands under the navel ?

[Vigeommighica]

An-Nawawi did not mention any other Ahadith in Al-Khulasah then the hadith of Wail bin Hujr (radiallahu anh). Ibn Hajar has mentioned it in his Bulugh al Maram.

Ibn Rajab al Hanbali in his Sharh of Bukhari Fath ul Bari hadith 740 said that putting the hands on the chest:
Was narrated as the action of Ali (radiallahu anh)
Was narrated as the action of Sa'eed bin Jubair (rah)
An opinion by Imam Shafi'i (rah)
An opinion by Imam Ahmad (rah)


Another thing a authentic hadeeth which described the way the Prophet (salallahu alayhi was sallam) used to put his hands over one another: He put his right hand on top of his left hand, wrist and forearm.

Isn't such position difficult to achieve with the hands under the navel ?

You are now clutching on to straws. Seriously you need to sit back and reflect.

I have clearly mentioned to you, show me where Imam Nawawi and Ibn Hajar have classed the Hadith as sahih. Please answer the question.

There is also one other important point supporting the case that the hadith of مؤمل is certainly ضعيف. I leave that point until you answer my question.

Another thing a authentic hadeeth which described the way the Prophet (salallahu alayhi was sallam) used to put his hands over one another: He put his right hand [U]on top of his left hand, wrist and forearm.

Isn't such position difficult to achieve with the hands under the navel ? This statement actually just made me smirk, honestly please provide better points.

As for the positions you mention, remind me about this point after you TRULY answer the points I have raised. It is time you answer questions properly.

and Allah Ta'ala Knows Best.

[DoterForeva]

I read somewhere this:

Al-Hâfidh said in Fat`hu-l-Bârî,

“and he did not mention [i.e. Sahl bin Sa‘d] the place to put them on the body. Ibn Khuzaymah reported from Wa’il that ‘he placed them upon his chest’. Al-Bazzâr has the wording ‘near his chest’ and Ahmad reports a similar hadîth from the hadîth of Hulb. In the Zawâ’id al-Musnad is the hadîth of ‘Alî that he placed his hands below the navel and its isnâd is da‘îf.’[14 ]


It is clear from the words of al-Hâfidh that he considered the hadîth of Wa’il to be sahîh or hasan, because he mentioned here three ahâdîth for the purpose of appointing the place where the hands are to be placed: the hadîth of Wa’il, the hadîth of Hulb and the hadîth of ‘Alî. He declared the hadîth of ‘Alî to be da‘îf, and was silent about the hadîth of Wa’il and Hulb. If these were also weak according to him then he would have made that clear due to what he states in his introduction to his commentary… If folding hands on chest is not a valid opinion, why do Hanafi women fold their hands on chest ? Can you please answer this ?

[mybooboo]

If folding hands on chest is not a valid opinion, why do Hanafi women fold their hands on chest ? Can you please answer this ?

Listen after 4:00

http://www.youtube.com/alittehaad#p/.../4/xIuLpGDYvb4

[Vigeommighica]

I already provided a statement why according to Ibn Hajar the Hadith of Wa'il رضي الله عنه would be weak. You ignore that fact as per your habit.

I am not interested in your supplementary questions. You have clearly shown you just come up with statements with no backing. If you really were academically honest you would accept your error and move on. However, your stubborness in not accepting but instead raising more questions is just to hide your manifest flaws.

[famosetroie]

Listen after 4:00

http://www.youtube.com/alittehaad#p/.../4/xIuLpGDYvb4

I listened to it but that didn't help since I don't know urdu, so can you now tell us what he said?

[interbaoui]

Placing the hands on the chest in Salah - a short reply



This is a short article based on Shaykh Abu Yusuf Riyadh al Haq's book: The Salah of the Believer, in reply to the claim that it is from the Sunna to place the hands upon the chest in Salah. To place the hands on the chest is not the position of any of the 4 Madhhabs or their major students.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ibn al Qayyim al Jawziyyah also writes in his Badai' al Fawaid, 'It is makrooh (undesirable) to place the hands on the chest in view of the narration that the Prophet (sallallahu alaihi wa sallam) forbade takfeer, which is to place the hands on the chest.' (Bada'i al Fawa'id, 3/73)

Ahadeeth of placing hands upon the chest.

Following is an analysis of the ahadeeth often quoted for placing the hands upon the chest.

1. Sayyiduna Wail bin Hujr (ra) says, 'I prayed with the Prophet (sallallahu alaihi wa sallam) and he placed his right hand over his left on his chest.(Ibn Khuzaimah, 479)

Imam Nimawi says, 'It's isnad is questionable and the additional wording 'on his chest' is inauthentic and not established.'

This hadeeth has been reported by Muammal bin Ismaeel from Sufyan al Thawri from Aasim bin Kulaib from Wail bin Hujr (ra) -However it is only Muammal who reports these additional words from Sufyan al Thawri. Sufyan's other student, Abdullah bin al Waleed who also narrates this hadeeth from him does not include these words in his narration as recorded in Imam Ahmad's Musnad. (Ahmad 18392)

The other narrators who report the hadeeth together with Sufyan al Thawri from Aasim bin Kulaib have also not included these words in their narrations. Observe the following list of narrators who have al reported the same hadeeth from Aasim bin Kulaib but none of then have included the additional words reported by Muammal bin Ismaeel

• Sh'ubah, Abdul Wahid, and Zubair bin Muawiyah as in Imam Ahmad's Musnad. (Ahmad 18398, 18371 & 18397)

• Zaidah as in Imam Ahmad's Musnad, Darimi, Abu Dawood. Nasai and Baihaqi (Ahmad 18391, Darimi 1357, Abu Dawood 726, Nasai 889 and Baihaqi 2325)

• Bishr bin al Mufaddhal as in Ibn Majah, Abu Dawood and Nasai (Ibn Majah 810, Abu Dawood 726 & 957, and Nasai 1265)

• Abdullah bin Idrees as in Ibn Majah (Ibn Majah 810)

• Salam bin Saleem as in Abu Dawood Tayalisi's Musnad (Abu Dawood Tayalisi 1020)

There are many other chains for this hadeeth, however, none contain this extra wording. Thus, it is clear that this is Muammal bin Ismaeel's own erroneous addition to the hadeeth. Ibn al Qayyim al Jawziyyah also says in I'laam al Muwaqqieen, 'No one has said upon the chest apart from Muammal bin Ismaeel.’ (I'ilaam al Muwaqqieen 2/361) Therefore, as Imam Nimawi has concluded in his al Ta'leeq al Hasan, this hadeeth with the additional wording of' upon his chest' is extremely weak.

It is an accepted principle of hadeeth that if a certain authentic and reliable narrator contradicts other equally authentic or more reliable 'arrators in his wording of a hadeeth then his narration will be declared shaadh and will not be accepted. If this is the case with authentic narrators, then an irregular addition of the words 'upon the chest' cannot be accepted from a narrator who, although declared acceptable by some, errs excessively and is weak of memory like Muammal bin Ismaeel. Study the following observations of the scholars of Jarh and T'adeel about Muammal bin Ismaeel:

Abu Hatim says, 'He is sadooq, firm in sunnah, but one of many mistakes
Imam Bukhari says, 'Muammal is munkar al hadeeth (People who view Imam Bukhari as the ultimate authority in matters of Hadeeth should note his following statement: 'It is not permissible to narrate from anyone whom I have labelled munkar al hadeeth [Mizan al I'itidal. 1/119]

Dhahabi says in al Kashif, 'He is sadooq, firm in sunnah, but one of many mistakes. It was also said that he buried his books and narrated by heart and thus erred. '

Ibn Sa'd says, 'He is thiqah, though one of many mistakes.'

Yakub bin Sufyan says, 'Muammal Abu Abdul Rahman is a great sunni shaikh. I heard Sulaiman bin Harb praise him. Our shaikhs would advise us to take his hadeeth, only that his hadeeth are not like the hadeeth of his companions. At times it is obligatory upon the people of knowledge to distance themselves from his narrations as he narrates munkar ahadeeth from even his authentic teachers. This is worse for had he narrated these munkar ahadeeth from weak authorities we would have excused him.'
Saji says, 'He errs excessively. He is sadooq, but one of many mistakes. He has errors that would take too long to be mentioned.'

Muhammad bin Nasr al Marwazi says, 'If Muammal alone relates a certain narration then it becomes obligatory to pause and research the hadeeth as he had a bad memory and erred excessively (See Tahdheeb al Tahdheeb)
Hafidh Ibn Hajar has made it clear in his Fath al Bari that there is dh 'af (weakness) in Muammal bin Ismaeel's narrations from Sufyan (Fath al Bari, 9/297). The above hadeeth has this very chain of narration.

We must also bear in mind that Sayyiduna Wail Ibn Hujr(ra), the very companion who narrates this hadeeth, was a resident of Kufa, and the practice of the people of Kufa was to fasten their hands below the navel. There is nothing to suggest that he contravened this practice. Sufyan al Thawri, from whom Muammal narrates this hadeeth, is himself of the view that the hands should be placed below the navel (Ibn Qudamah in al Mughni 2/23, and others as quoted by the author of Bughyah al Almaee 1/316)

Furthermore, there is another hadeeth narrated by Sayyiduna Wail (ra) himself (quoted above) which says that he saw the Prophet (sallallahu alaihi wa sallam) fasten his hands below the navel.

2. Sayyiduna Hulb (ra) relates, 'I saw the Prophet (sallallahu alaihi wa sallam) turn from both his right and left and I also saw him place this upon his chest.' Yahya (one of the narrators) described this as being the right hand upon the left above the wrist joint.292

The above hadeeth contains the words 'upon his chest'. This extra wording is not firmly established or confirmed, because of all the narrators who report this hadeeth from Simak, only one reports this extra wording.
Observe the following narrations of the same hadeeth without the extra wording of 'upon his chest'.

• Abu al Ahwas reports from Simak bin Harb from Qabeesah bin Hulb from his father that the Prophet (sallallahu alaihi wa sallam) would lead us in prayer and would clasp his left hand with his right.293

• Shareek reports from Simak from Qabeesah bin Hulb from his father who says (towards the end of a longer hadeeth), 'I saw him place one of his hands on the other and I also saw him turn once towards his right and once towards his left.'294
Wakee reports from Sufyan from Simak bin Harb from Qabeesah bin Hulb from his father who says, 'I saw the Prophet (sallallahu alaihi wa sallam) place his right hand upon his left in prayer and I also saw him turn away from both his right and left.'295

• Daruqutni narrates from Abdul Rahman bin Mahdi and Wakee', from Sufyan from Simak bin Harb from Qabeesah bin Hulb from his father who says, 'I saw the Prophet (sallallahu alaihi wa sallam) place his right hand upon his left in prayer.' (Daruqutni 1087)

The above narrations all clearly show that the wording 'upon his chest' is an unreliable addition on the part of one of the reporters and therefore this particular narration is shaadh.

Imam Nimawi adds in his al T'aleeq al Hasan (1/145):

'I have a suspicion that the wording of this hadeeth has mistakenly been changed by a writer. The correct words would appear to be "Yadhau hadhihi ala hadhihi", i.e., "he would place this hand upon this hand", and not "hadhihi ala sadrihi", i.e., "this hand upon his chest". Only this wording would be in agreement with the narrators own interpretation of the hadeeth as is stated in the narration "Yahya described this as being the right hand upon the left above the wrist joint". This would also tally with all the other narrations of this hadeeth that do not contain the wording "upon the chest", and would also explain why the following authors have not included this narration in their comprehensive books: Haithami in his Majm'a al Zawaid, Suyuti in his Jam' al Jawami, and Ali al Muttaqi in his Kanz alUmmal. And Allah knows best.'

The author of Awn al M'abud also admits that Yahya's commentary does not fit the wording of the hadeeth.

NOTES:

footnote (fn) no. 292 says: Ahmad 21460. Allamah Hashim Sindhi says in Dirham al Surrah p. 113 that both Simak bin Harb and Qabeesah (two of the narrators of this hadeeth) have been disparaged by some of the ulama of jarh and t'adeel.

fn. 293 Ibn Abi Shaibah 3934, Ahmad 21467, Ibn Majah 809 and Tirmidhi 252. Imam Tirmidhi adds that it is a hasan hadeeth.

fn. 294: Ahmad 21464.

fn. 295: Ahmad2146I & 21475. Daruqutni 1087. al T'aleeq al Hasan 1/145

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


A more detailed reply can be found in arabic works like:

i) Dirham al-Surra by Imam Muhammad Hashim al Sindi (d. 1174 AH) - which contains a thorough reply to Shaykh Muhammad Hayat al-Sindi and those who imitated him in later times (like Abdur Rahman al Mubarakpuri in his Tuhfatul Ahwadhi)

ii) Athar al-Sunan ma'a Ta'liq al Hasan by Imam al-Nimawi

iii) I'la al-Sunan by Shaykh Zafar Ahmad al-Uthmani (d. 1974)

iv) Badhlul Majhud fi Halli Sunan Abu Dawud by Shaykh Khalil al-Sahranpuri

v) Ma'arif al-Sunan by Shaykh Muhammad Yusuf al Binuri (d. 1977)

Wassalam

[DoterForeva]

I already provided a statement why according to Ibn Hajar the Hadith of Wa'il رضي الله عنه would be weak. You ignore that fact as per your habit.

I am not interested in your supplementary questions. You have clearly shown you just come up with statements with no backing. If you really were academically honest you would accept your error and move on. However, your stubborness in not accepting but instead raising more questions is just to hide your manifest flaws.

I already told you Ibn Hajar mentioned the hadith of on the chest in his Bulugh al Maram and Fath al Bari. In Fath al Bari he said the hadith of under the navel is weak, but he remained silent on the hadith of on the chest, thus he regarded either Hasan or Sahih. Also an-Nawawi has used the hadith as proof but the said about the hadith of under the navel that it is weak, thus he regarded the hadith of on the chest also eiter Hasan or Sahih.

I have also shown that two of foremost Hanafi's have declared it sahih i.e. Ibn Nujaym and Ibn Amir Hajj.

Lets say the hadith of Wail bin Hujr (radiallahu anhu) is weak, there are 6 or 7 more ahadith which mention on chest thus all together it would render it at least Hasan and thus valid.

The only reason Hanafis gives as reason that women should putt hands on chest is because consealment. This is for me incorrect since a woman already is commanded to have consealment with proper dressing for salah as well as outside salah when they walk outside.

I have seen since the reason of consealment seemed also incorrect for some Muftis of today they started to say that there are two authentic hadith : below navel and on chest. So they say we choose under navel for men and on chest for women.

[Vigeommighica]

Ibn Hajar staying quiet on those narrations is no proof because I already provided you with the following statement from Fath:

فتح الباري ( ص 435 / ج 25 / المكتبة الشاملة )

وكذلك مؤمل بن إسماعيل في حديثه عن الثوري ضعف

The other ahaadith have different wordings in comparison to what مؤمل narrates. Hence, you cannot prove anything. The main point of discussion is the hadith of Wa'il رضي الله عنه. Since that is clear cut, however, as has been proven it is weak.

Furthermore, in addition to the statement of Ibn Hajar. Hafidh ad-dhahabi's view was also provided. That to me is more than enough. You simply do not want to admit it, that is the bottom line.

[Mifsnavassy]

the only one who said on chest, if i remember correctly, is Ishaq bin Rahawayh.

There is a opinion of Imam Shafi'i regarding folding the hands on chest.

Allama Shamsul Haq Azeemaabadi said: From Shafi'i there three opinions has been reported. One is to fold the right hand over left, below the chest and above the navel. Second is to fold them on chest. This was recorded by the author of Al-Hidaya from Shafi'i. Al-Ayni said, this is mention in Al-Haawi from their books. And the third opinion is to fold them below the navel. This was mentioned by Allama Hashim As-Sindi in one of treatise on this topic.

قلت جاء عن الشافعي في الوضع ثلاث روايات إحداها أنه يضع يده اليمنى على يده اليسرى تحت الصدر فوق السرة والثانية أن يضع يده اليمنى على اليسرى على صدره وهي الرواية التي نقلها صاحب الهداية من الشافعي
وقال العيني إنها المذكور في الحاوي من كتبهم والثالثة أن يضع يده تحت السرة
ذكر هذه الروايات الثلاث العلامة هاشم السندي في بعض رسائله

Wassalam