[CHEAPPoem]

agreed.. so he doesnt represent hanbali madhab.. what is the salafi stance on him.. is he negating the dhahir ma'na? Is he misguided?

comeon. i meant that hanabils as whole have been at war (acadamically) with ash'aris. Imam Ahmad is their head. and i said that Imam Ahmad didnt do tafweed of meaning. why would i consider him misguided. Indeed he rahimahullah was imam of ahlus sunnah.

If it is ta'weel sahih then ther is no blemish on them. Perhaps you do not know the definition of "ta'weel".. could you please post the the definition in absolute wording from aslaaf.

firstly, stop being judgemental about my knowledge. did i say that i am an 'allamah or fahhama.

Perhaps you do not know the definition of "ta'weel".

please ask the person who gave you this text to confuse you


I am really starting to wonder if you even know the basics in Asha'iri Usools or not

why what is this.

secondly, i am not discussing that ayah from al-qasas because we will surely enter into a loop. like when we discuss istiwa' and ma'iyyah. also i am going brain dead. partly because it is quite easy to read posts but very difficult to write here. specially handling quotes. and partly because of our constant exchange of posts from last night.

thrdly, as far as i know ta'weel means to interpret, explain or divert the apparent interpretation. if you think that it is not the right representation of ta'weel then please correct me. also i will try to bring the definition from authentic acceptable sources.

let me put it as simply as i can. if you accept that ta'weel means any of the above istated then mutakallimon inevitably gave meaning to sifat which Allah didnt tell them. so you should refute them as well.

[virtuah]

comeon. i meant that hanabils as whole have been at war (acadamically) with ash'aris. Imam Ahmad is their head. and i said that Imam Ahmad didnt do tafweed of meaning. why would i consider him misguided. Indeed he rahimahullah was imam of ahlus sunnah.

Could you post some explanation of his quote from Imam Ahmed r.a. where he says that he knows the meaning.

secondly, i am not discussing that ayah from al-qasas because we will surely enter into a loop. like when we discuss istiwa' and ma'iyyah. also i am going brain dead. partly because it is quite easy to read posts but very difficult to write here. specially handling quotes. and partly because of our constant exchange of posts from last night. Hence I stated not to run away for this one..

thrdly, as far as i know ta'weel means to interpret, explain or divert the apparent interpretation. if you think that it is not the right representation of ta'weel then please correct me. also i will try to bring the definition from authentic acceptable sources. will make it easy for you then.. please try and get the definition before being judgemental on 40-60 % of muslim ummah. then we can discuss...

[gennickhif]

will make it easy for you then.. please try and get the definition before being judgemental on 40-60 % of muslim ummah.

to refute somebody's stance is a different thing. you are bullying me for my the lack of knowledge brother, by being judgemental.

[PrettyFifa12]

if you wnt we shall discuss it (sifah of Wajh on different mahaal) in another thread inshaAllah. why are you showing your back. was my explaination of ta'weel incorrect. if it was then define ta'weel and correct me. otherwise accept that mutakallimon gave those sifat meaning and they should also be refuted.

Come on akhi.. shame on you.. For last 14 hours or so.. in different threads me and Br. Muadh are giving you explanations and quotations. and you have yet to bring ONE quote. Oh wait.. you did bring one quote.. about the Muhannad.. but that too a half baked one..

Akhi.. we are not playing games here. The least you can do in your own sincerity is to bring the definition of ta'weel from your salaf which you so ardently deny.

to refute somebody's stance is a different thing. you are bullying me for my the lack of knowledge brother, by being judgemental. I am bullying(if that is what it is) you for being judgmental about whole of Asha'ira ..without any knowledge of the basic understanding of usools in aqeeda.

I will await untill you get the definition of ta'weel from your teachers and then we can process inshAllah. Dont wory .. there is no shame in not knowing.. however the shame is in not having the humbleness to seek knowledge. Allah yazid fil ilmika Ameen

[Enjoymms]

Come on akhi.. shame on you.. For last 14 hours or so.. in different threads me and Br. Muadh are giving you explanations and quotations. and you have yet to bring ONE quote. Oh wait.. you did bring one quote.. about the Muhannad.. but that too a half baked one..

what i brought was not a misrepresentation of your stance whether you accept it or not. you consider asha'ris making ta'weel on haq. these are the matters of furu' ? if you accept them being on haq then what is left.

also you akh claim to follow ash'aris while shamelessly deny that you follow them in particular masa'il. and what is that mas'alah ' ta'weel '. subhanAllah

I am bullying(if that is what it is) you for being judgemental about whole of Aha'ira ..without any knowledge of the basic understanding of usools in aqeeda.

I will await untill you get the definition of ta'weel from your teachers and then we can process inshAllah. Dont wory .. there is no shame in not knowing.. however the shame is in not having the humbleness to seek knowledge. Allah yazid fil ilmika Ameen

indeed there is no shame in not knowing. i am not a maghror person. a'udhu billahi min dhalik.

but by not correcting me you have yourself exposed your cowardice and hollowness. you pretend to have the knowledge of the usool of asha'irah. you are criticizing me for that. why dont you show some courage and prove me wrong.

[gundos]

also you akh claim to follow ash'aris while shamelessly deny that you follow them in particular masa'il. and what is that mas'alah ' ta'weel '. subhanAllah

Hm, can you quote where abuhajira has claimed he follows Ash'aries?

[f6HLLFcw]

prove what wrong. when you havent even established anything. You stated a claim about mutakillimoon. and I am to refute that claim?

For that you will have to produce bayyanah.. Rasulullah said albayyanatu ala muda'i Wal Yameenu ala man ankara. I deny that Asha'ira make any such ta'weel which should be denounced. So now its your duty to produce the proof why they should be denounced.

in anycase...I will await untill you gain decency to ask your peers or teachers for the definition of ta'weel. untill then discussion closed from my side.

[casinobonyanes]

Hm, can you quote where abuhajira has claimed he follows Ash'aries?

http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/show...4&postcount=31

[Green_Monkey23]

prove what wrong. when you havent even established anything. You stated a claim about mutakillimoon. and I am to refute that claim?

For that you will have to produce bayyanah.. Rasulullah said albayyanatu ala muda'i Wal Yameenu ala man ankara. I deny that Asha'ira make any such ta'weel which should be denounced. So now its your duty to produce the proof why they should be denounced.

in anycase...I will await untill you gain decency to ask your peers or teachers for the definition of ta'weel. untill then discussion closed from my side.

where did i claim anything. these are bayyenat :

1) you say that nobody but Allah knows the meanng of sifat (where there is ikhtilaf ).
2) asha'irah make ta'weel i.e they interpret those sifat.

i said that you should refute them as well because they interpreting those sifat.

you objected that i should bring the definition of ta'weel from salaf. i said that 1) as per my knowledge it means to explain or divert the dhahir. 2) please correct me if i am wrong. 3) and i will try to bring the definition of it from acceptable sources.

show some backbone and correct me.

[Arr34ston]

where did i claim anything. these are bayyenat :

1) you say that nobody but Allah knows the meanng of sifat (where there is ikhtilaf ).
2) asha'irah make ta'weel i.e they interpret those sifat.

i said that you should refute them as well because they interpreting those sifat.

you objected that i should bring the definition of ta'weel from salaf. i said that 1) as per my knowledge it means to explain or divert the dhahir. 2) please correct me if i am wrong. 3) and i will try to bring the definition of it from acceptable sources.

show some backbone and correct me.

since you accepted my claims as hujjah ..and present them as a bayyanah.. then Ya akhi.. I also said that Asha'ira make acceptable ta'weel. Accept that as a hujjah as well.

as I said, bring the definition. Come on.. you can even google it.. and then we can proceed.. please do not waste time.

[Donlupedron]

since you accepted my claims as hujjah ..and present them as a bayyanah.. then Ya akhi.. I also said that Asha'ira make acceptable ta'weel. Accept that as a hujjah as well.

you make so many assumptions brother. those were badihi facts you didnt established any hujjah on me.

as I said, bring the definition. Come on.. you can even google it.. and then we can proceed.. please do not waste time.

i dont rely on google.com much and i am not very good at using it also. i will try to bring as soon as possible.

but akhi you didnt show the courage to correct me. it would have saved our time.

[SkeniaInhilla]

the reason I am not bringing is because I am hoping that when you look at the proper definition, unbiased from your salafi filtering you may actually realize that it entails a bit more than mere interpretation or Insiraf from dhahir. Secondly, you are a seeker of knowledge as well, once you search for it yourself, you will not forget it easily. Thirdly, you will also realize that definition have much more to offer then a general concept since every word in the definition is maticulously placed.

[gactanync]

the reason I am not bringing is because I am hoping that when you look at the proper definition, unbiased from your salafi filtering you may actually realize that it entails a bit more than mere interpretation or Insiraf from dhahir.

our scholars advise us to read theirn books and those of other school of thoughts and present it over quran and sunnah.

anyways any suggestions where should i look for the definition, ya aba hajira.

[FUNALA]

i apologize if i missed the point (i only read the 1st post) but i found this on YT, what it shows is the even the salafis say they dont know how it would be

[AngelinaTheElf]

http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/show...4&postcount=31

I'm not sure I see where the 'I am an Ash'ari' claim is. If you mean

2. It means that we follow Imam Ashari and Imam Maturidi r.am in the matters of aqeeda. But you know very well that in particular mas'alas one cannot be following Imam Maturidi as well as Imam Asharii because they have had subtle minor khilaf. Still we follow them both.

then it's obviously stating the view of Deobandis in general, not a personal view. I don't think it's right to say someone is an Asha'ri just because they are defending that view. It's like claiming someone is a Shafi'i just because a person defends that the word Quroo can be taken as Tuhr.

[freddyujnf]

Asslamo Allaikum,

I have been thinking about this long and hard.

I quoted the following to Sr Musleemah about not debating about the meaning:

http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/show...6&postcount=62

To which she replied:

http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/show...&postcount=116

Her reply perhaps explain the quote of Imam Ahmed Ibn Hanbal (RA) but not the second one by Abu Muhammad Ibn Qudama A-Mqadisi (RA) because it says about all which is mentioned in the Qur'aan and Authentic traditions and Shaykh (RA) says to affirm the word and not to engage in discussions about meanings and that is precisely what we udnerstand "Dhahir" to be :


لمعة الاعتقاد الهادي إلى سبيل الرشاد
أبو محمد بن قدامة المقدسي

وكل ما جاء في القرآن أو صح عن المصطفى عليه السلام صفات الرحمن وجب الإيمان به وتلقيه بالتسليم والقبول وترك التعرض له بالرد والتأويل والتشبيه والتمثيل وما أشكل من ذلك وجب إثباته لفظا وترك التعرض لمعناه ونرد علمه إلى قائله ونجعل عهدته على ناقله اتباعا لطريق الراسخين في العلم الذين أثنى الله عليهم في كتابه المبين بقوله سبحانه وتعالى ‏‏(والراسخون في العلم يقولون آمنا به كل من عند ربنا)‏‏ آل عمران 7 وقال في ذم مبتغي التأويل لمتشابه تنزيله فأما الذين في قلوبهم زيغ فيتبعون ما تشابه منه ابتغاء الفتنة وابتغاء تأويله وما يعلم تأويله إلا الله آل عمران 7 فجعل ابتغاء التأويل علامة على الزيغ وقرنه بابتغاء الفتنة في الذم ثم حجبهم عما أملوه وقطع أطماعهم عما قصدوه بقوله سبحانه وما يعلم تأويله إلا الله ‏.‏
The Salafees disagree with this definition of Dhahir and says that it means to affirm the word and to give it a meaning.

I honestly don't believe that there is any evidence of debating with someone who is affirming the word and consigning the meaning (without denying that meaning exists) to Allah (SWT).

These deabtes will never end and people will provide quotes to back their respective position so this thread isn't designed to start a debate, rather how to come to common grounds (for laymen) who are not well versed in these issues (such as myself to start with).

The issue of Istiwa of Allah (SWT) is dealt with in here:

http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=46114

The second Fatwa very clearly negates the inclination of assigning a physical direction and that is the whole bone of contention.

Allah (SWT) knows best.

P.S: We (Muslims) can't agree but perhaps we can come to common ground.

Still looking for errors in what I have written, Insha'Allah

Dear Brother Muad, Assalaamoalaikum.

Alhamdulillah. Your intention to find a common ground for all of us , muslims, on issues such as the one relating to the attributes of Allah(SWT) is indeed commending. May Allah(SWT) reward you for this. Insh’Allah.

However, I wish to submit the following more as food for thought rather than for discussion, and hope that all our brothers & sisters on SF will benefit.

When we read that Allah(SWT) is All-Hearing and All-Seeing, for example, we, as muslims, say “We hear and obey”. This means that we accept unconditionally that Allah(SWT) hears everything and sees everything – just as He says. This, in my interpretation, is what we mean by saying that we confirm the Words of Allah(SWT). We muslims, believe that He sees everything that we do and Hears everything that we say with our mouth or with our heart – whether we pronounce the words in a low or loud voice or whether we just think of the words without even muttering them. In fact this idea is reflected in the following anecdote:

“ A teacher gave something to each of his pupils and asked them to go and hide it somewhere such that no one would be able to find it. After some time the children came back. One of the children still had the object in its hands. Questioned by the teacher as to why it still had the object when it should have been hidden somewhere, the child answered that it found nowhere to hide it such that even Allah(SWT) would not be able to see it.” MashaAllah.

This anecdote indicates that the child confirmed the Words of Allah(SWT) that He is the All-Seeing. The child did not assign any meaning to the “All-Seeing” Attribute of Allah(SWT). The child heard and accepted. No meaning assigned.

It is the same with us. By accepting the Words of Allah(SWT) as muslims, we confirm the Words of Allah(SWT). This acceptance , this confirmation, is our Imaan.

However, our human curiosity, some would say shaytaan, leads us to asking ourselves questions like “Does Allah(SWT) Sees everything at any point in time?”, “ How is that?”, “Does Allah(SWT) Hears everything at any point in time?”, “How is that?”, “Does Allah(SWT) have ears and eyes as we do?” This is trying to assign meanings to the Attributes of Allah(SWT). There is no doubt that there are meanings to Allah’s Words. But is it necessary to look into the meanings? Is it necessary to explain His Attributes? This is where all the problems lie.

I have gone through the other posts on this thread, and have come through various opinions coloured with all sorts of terms, all trying to justify a particular position on the issue. Such discussions have been on-going for the past 1400 years and we come back with the same multi-reasoning and with the same multi-conclusions. Same will continue upto the Last Day and still the FINAL & CORRECT answer will not have been found. The reason is simple: “How can we, with our human-limited knowledge, reach a stage where we can with confidence say that this is what explains Allah’s (SWT) Attributes? This is how He Hears. This is how He Sees. The answer(s) is / are not in the books. The answers are in the Holy Qur’an. But these answers can only be found through His Guidance. It is, therefore, most futile for us to go looking for meanings. Unless Guided by Allah(SWT) it is simply impossible to come up with any meanings. From what I have read so far ( not only on SF), everyone who has assigned meanings has come to the wrong conclusions. And yet, how much division these issues have caused / cause among the Ummah. Why can’t we realize this? Why can’t we obey Allah(SWT) and stop asking questions of which we have no Knowledge?

So, is it then not wise (in the interest of the Ummah) to ACCEPT / CONFIRM the Words and leave the meanings to Allah(SWT) Who Alone knows how His Attributes Operate? The meanings are there, no doubt. But we simply plead guilty to our not knowing what these meanings may be.

Brother Muad, since you say that you have been thinking very hard about this issue with the obvious intention of bringing the Ummah together (finding a common ground), may I just impart to you one hint that could, Insh’Allah, be the click that could lead you to progress in your quest, Insh’Allah. Other hints are in the Holy Qur’an.

Food for thought: IS IT NECESSARY TO HAVE A MOUTH TO SPEAK?

Brotherly yours
farook

[EjPWyPm4]

Dear Brother Muad, Assalaamoalaikum.

Alhamdulillah. Your intention to find a common ground for all of us , muslims, on issues such as the one relating to the attributes of Allah(SWT) is indeed commending. May Allah(SWT) reward you for this. Insh’Allah.

However, I wish to submit the following more as food for thought rather than for discussion, and hope that all our brothers & sisters on SF will benefit.

When we read that Allah(SWT) is All-Hearing and All-Seeing, for example, we, as muslims, say “We hear and obey”. This means that we accept unconditionally that Allah(SWT) hears everything and sees everything – just as He says. This, in my interpretation, is what we mean by saying that we confirm the Words of Allah(SWT). We muslims, believe that He sees everything that we do and Hears everything that we say with our mouth or with our heart – whether we pronounce the words in a low or loud voice or whether we just think of the words without even muttering them. In fact this idea is reflected in the following anecdote:

“ A teacher gave something to each of his pupils and asked them to go and hide it somewhere such that no one would be able to find it. After some time the children came back. One of the children still had the object in its hands. Questioned by the teacher as to why it still had the object when it should have been hidden somewhere, the child answered that it found nowhere to hide it such that even Allah(SWT) would not be able to see it.” MashaAllah.

This anecdote indicates that the child confirmed the Words of Allah(SWT) that He is the All-Seeing. The child did not assign any meaning to the “All-Seeing” Attribute of Allah(SWT). The child heard and accepted. No meaning assigned.

It is the same with us. By accepting the Words of Allah(SWT) as muslims, we confirm the Words of Allah(SWT). This acceptance , this confirmation, is our Imaan.

However, our human curiosity, some would say shaytaan, leads us to asking ourselves questions like “Does Allah(SWT) Sees everything at any point in time?”, “ How is that?”, “Does Allah(SWT) Hears everything at any point in time?”, “How is that?”, “Does Allah(SWT) have ears and eyes as we do?” This is trying to assign meanings to the Attributes of Allah(SWT). There is no doubt that there are meanings to Allah’s Words. But is it necessary to look into the meanings? Is it necessary to explain His Attributes? This is where all the problems lie.

I have gone through the other posts on this thread, and have come through various opinions coloured with all sorts of terms, all trying to justify a particular position on the issue. Such discussions have been on-going for the past 1400 years and we come back with the same multi-reasoning and with the same multi-conclusions. Same will continue upto the Last Day and still the FINAL & CORRECT answer will not have been found. The reason is simple: “How can we, with our human-limited knowledge, reach a stage where we can with confidence say that this is what explains Allah’s (SWT) Attributes? This is how He Hears. This is how He Sees. The answer(s) is / are not in the books. The answers are in the Holy Qur’an. But these answers can only be found through His Guidance. It is, therefore, most futile for us to go looking for meanings. Unless Guided by Allah(SWT) it is simply impossible to come up with any meanings. From what I have read so far ( not only on SF), everyone who has assigned meanings has come to the wrong conclusions. And yet, how much division these issues have caused / cause among the Ummah. Why can’t we realize this? Why can’t we obey Allah(SWT) and stop asking questions of which we have no Knowledge?

So, is it then not wise (in the interest of the Ummah) to ACCEPT / CONFIRM the Words and leave the meanings to Allah(SWT) Who Alone knows how His Attributes Operate? The meanings are there, no doubt. But we simply plead guilty to our not knowing what these meanings may be.

Brother Muad, since you say that you have been thinking very hard about this issue with the obvious intention of bringing the Ummah together (finding a common ground), may I just impart to you one hint that could, Insh’Allah, be the click that could lead you to progress in your quest, Insh’Allah. Other hints are in the Holy Qur’an.

Food for thought: IS IT NECESSARY TO HAVE A MOUTH TO SPEAK?

Brotherly yours
farook

to the nearest meaning

I heard this once in a bayan

Somebody came to Hadhrat Thanvi (Rahmatullahi Alaih) and tried to catch him out. The person said Hadhrat Thanvi, can your Allah hear. He said "of course Allah hears, He is all hearing". The person said if your Allah hears then he must have an ear to hear with. And if he has an ear then he is Mawhtaaz of that ear. Without the ear he is not able to hear


Here Hadhrat Thanvi (Rahmatullahi Alaih) gave an ahjeeb answer.

He said to the person, you use your ear to hear. He said yes. But how does your ear hear. Does your ear have another ear to hear with.

The person replied that's silly the ear "JUST Hears" it doesn't need another ear to hear with

The sameway Allah Most High is not in need of an ear, "He Just Hears"

I suppose same would apply to the mouth.

Allahu Allam

[zoppiklonikaa]

Dear Brother Muad, Assalaamoalaikum.

Alhamdulillah. Your intention to find a common ground for all of us , muslims, on issues such as the one relating to the attributes of Allah(SWT) is indeed commending. May Allah(SWT) reward you for this. Insh’Allah.

However, I wish to submit the following more as food for thought rather than for discussion, and hope that all our brothers & sisters on SF will benefit.

When we read that Allah(SWT) is All-Hearing and All-Seeing, for example, we, as muslims, say “We hear and obey”. This means that we accept unconditionally that Allah(SWT) hears everything and sees everything – just as He says. This, in my interpretation, is what we mean by saying that we confirm the Words of Allah(SWT). We muslims, believe that He sees everything that we do and Hears everything that we say with our mouth or with our heart – whether we pronounce the words in a low or loud voice or whether we just think of the words without even muttering them. In fact this idea is reflected in the following anecdote:

“ A teacher gave something to each of his pupils and asked them to go and hide it somewhere such that no one would be able to find it. After some time the children came back. One of the children still had the object in its hands. Questioned by the teacher as to why it still had the object when it should have been hidden somewhere, the child answered that it found nowhere to hide it such that even Allah(SWT) would not be able to see it.” MashaAllah.

This anecdote indicates that the child confirmed the Words of Allah(SWT) that He is the All-Seeing. The child did not assign any meaning to the “All-Seeing” Attribute of Allah(SWT). The child heard and accepted. No meaning assigned.

It is the same with us. By accepting the Words of Allah(SWT) as muslims, we confirm the Words of Allah(SWT). This acceptance , this confirmation, is our Imaan.

However, our human curiosity, some would say shaytaan, leads us to asking ourselves questions like “Does Allah(SWT) Sees everything at any point in time?”, “ How is that?”, “Does Allah(SWT) Hears everything at any point in time?”, “How is that?”, “Does Allah(SWT) have ears and eyes as we do?” This is trying to assign meanings to the Attributes of Allah(SWT). There is no doubt that there are meanings to Allah’s Words. But is it necessary to look into the meanings? Is it necessary to explain His Attributes? This is where all the problems lie.

I have gone through the other posts on this thread, and have come through various opinions coloured with all sorts of terms, all trying to justify a particular position on the issue. Such discussions have been on-going for the past 1400 years and we come back with the same multi-reasoning and with the same multi-conclusions. Same will continue upto the Last Day and still the FINAL & CORRECT answer will not have been found. The reason is simple: “How can we, with our human-limited knowledge, reach a stage where we can with confidence say that this is what explains Allah’s (SWT) Attributes? This is how He Hears. This is how He Sees. The answer(s) is / are not in the books. The answers are in the Holy Qur’an. But these answers can only be found through His Guidance. It is, therefore, most futile for us to go looking for meanings. Unless Guided by Allah(SWT) it is simply impossible to come up with any meanings. From what I have read so far ( not only on SF), everyone who has assigned meanings has come to the wrong conclusions. And yet, how much division these issues have caused / cause among the Ummah. Why can’t we realize this? Why can’t we obey Allah(SWT) and stop asking questions of which we have no Knowledge?

So, is it then not wise (in the interest of the Ummah) to ACCEPT / CONFIRM the Words and leave the meanings to Allah(SWT) Who Alone knows how His Attributes Operate? The meanings are there, no doubt. But we simply plead guilty to our not knowing what these meanings may be.

Brother Muad, since you say that you have been thinking very hard about this issue with the obvious intention of bringing the Ummah together (finding a common ground), may I just impart to you one hint that could, Insh’Allah, be the click that could lead you to progress in your quest, Insh’Allah. Other hints are in the Holy Qur’an.

Food for thought: IS IT NECESSARY TO HAVE A MOUTH TO SPEAK?

Brotherly yours
farook

W_Salam,

Masha’Allah very insightful and useful comments.

I have carefully read and analysed the comments of the Salafi brother and his objections and I am afraid that his “objections” have nothing to do with the mock-up dialogue and discussion in the first thread, rather he is intent on making people comment on Ashari/Maturidi Ta’weel and ensuring that a laymen MUST PASS a ruling (to his liking) on the matter of making Ta’weel.

This is precisely what the Salafees do e.g. try to put words in your mouth, catch you out or INSIST that you comment on Islamic history and the positions of all the scholars which is beyond the realm of a laymen and this is an area which people should avoid.

No doubt, that scholars have differed on the matter over centuries and a person is NOT REQUIRED to condemn or condone or even accurately know the position of various scholars of Islam. The Aqeedah war on Internet forums is nothing more than providing quotes and counter-quotes and some of these quotes are from unstable political times.

A lay person is responsible for his/her words and actions and it is NOT A REQUIREMENT for them to be issuing Fatwaas on others.

I have also read the comments on Non-Salafees and so far no objection on the dialogue either.

I thoroughly accept the fact that a person can affirm and believe in the attributes of Allah (SWT) without delving into either the meaning or the modality of it. Parents tell their children all the time when they are being Naughty “Allah (SWT) is watching you or don’t lie Allah (SWT) knows everything” and the little child is able to grasp that fact instinctively without delving into the details of it.
We can either affirm our belief in the attributes of Allah (SWT) OR continue to rip apart Islamic history and attempt to condemn or condone Islamic scholars based on insufficient knowledge.

If the Salafi brother wants to stick to the subject and provide feedback/objections pertinent to the matter at hand, it will be useful. So far he has done nothing in the two threads in which he has participated which is worth an Academic reply.

[putza]

MashaAllah great work.

Its been a long time, so I thought I'd give this topic a bump

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wiEcmNTU-UA

http://www.muftisays.com/forums/shar...elcome%29.html
The above involves speaking with youn childred, really young! and then moving on to the older generation.

[lzm00]

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